490 replies to this topic

[eibyyz]

 

Because there is a history of chancers turning up in F1 (and more widely in motorsport) with big talk and big ideas that turn out not to be supported by any real substance.  So when a company that nobody has ever heard of and whose products nobody has ever seen start to try to buy teams and offer title sponosrship, some of us are a bit suspicious.  Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame of me.

 

 

I had never heard of Essex Petroleum until they showed up on the side of a Lotus 80.  And then on a Penske PC-9...

[RacingGreen]

I had never heard of Essex Petroleum until they showed up on the side of a Lotus 80.  And then on a Penske PC-9...

 

David Thieme was not exactly your model corporate citizen.

 

http://f1i.com/magaz...characters.html

[Myrvold]

Rich Energy is available nowhere, so it makes no sense to spend millions on advertising it.

Oh it is, if you are the kind of person to blow off, let's say, 1000 EUR on a shared classic table at Amber Lounge in e.g Monaco, then you will be able to find Rich Energy. As they are a partner of Amber Lounge. Of course, you then have free service of whatever drink you'd like, so, I can't see Amber Lounge paying much for having Rich Energy there, as it is a nice window for the rich people.

[KWSN - DSM]

I am a glass half full or half full kind of guy.

 

[BalanceUT]

https://www.motorspo...ula-15/3198093/

 

Sounds to me like he is having buyer's remorse.  And to my point about who's in the market to buy a team / start a new one, who is lining up?  it seems like both the market and Liberty have settled on 20 cars.

 

Seriously, what did he expect?  And 2021 won't be a solution.  

You are reading things into it. There's not a single 'buyer's remorse' statement in there.

 

There is only him stating what others have also said, that the top 3 teams have a huge budget advantage that simply cannot be matched by any other teams. They have the entirety of corporate Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, and Renault (who will probably next year or two, IMO, be showing a similar advantage) behind them. The prestige of these companies means they simply must be competing excellently, so they have whatever budget is needed to top the others and vast sums are available if the budget is not enough. 

 

This is at least the second time I've seen someone over-interpret what Haas has said to mean he's ready to leave or having buyer's remorse or similar. All he's doing is expressing that it's a tough business and he wishes the playing field was more level. 

[BalanceUT]

I've still got no idea what they're doing in F1.

 

Seems like a complete waste to spend millions advertising a low production run energy drink on a HAAS that is almost never seen on the TV feed.

You mean, on a Haas? HAAS is the logo for the machine tool company. Haas is the F1 team name and proper shorthand reference for the car. 
 

Don't feel bad, it's a common rookie mistake on the Haas dedicated threads. 

[BalanceUT]

I had a look at their companies house filings a while back when the force India deal was mentioned. This is a company with something like 400k gbp cash. Unless they have some very silent backers that are ready to invest heavily then it’s all going to end badly.

That's my worry... something about Rich Energy seems just on the wrong side of legitimate. It's like they are betting if they advertise big enough they will eventually have sales that can pay for their advertising. 

[RSRally]

That's my worry... something about Rich Energy seems just on the wrong side of legitimate. It's like they are betting if they advertise big enough they will eventually have sales that can pay for their advertising.

Yep, or that securing an F1 title sponsorship deal will attract investors.

Only other possibility is that William Storey has a lot of personal wealth that he's willing to put into his company to pay for this.

[KongKurs]

I love the last line in their "About Us" on the Rich homepage:

 

"We worked with leading experts around the world on all elements of this fantastic product and we are very proud to bring the elevated taste and experience of the UK's premium energy drink to the market. Get Rich and enjoy the experience!"

 

Sounds like pure extravagance 

[Steve99]

1 left

 

https://www.amazon.c...rds=RICH ENERGY

 

None now, selling quickly lol. I do like this 'customer review' on there, from 'Vijay...':" This promised so much - I thought Rich Energy would give me enough power that I could travel back to India, drive around in a fancy Mercedes powered car and beat Red Bull. Sadly, Rich Energy was full of artificial ingredients that left a bad taste in my mouth - which a cursory look at the details would have told me in advance. Instead we were headed straight to the scene of the accident. Fortunately I have many BWT Vida Water Filter Jug, White, 2.6 Litre to remove the bad taste."

[Myrvold]

Sounds like pure extravagance

IIRC they sold 2 cans in a classy box, including a gold leaf(cannot remember if it was in the drink or not) for an obscene amount of money.

Extravagance is spot on.

[eibyyz]

You are reading things into it. There's not a single 'buyer's remorse' statement in there.

 

There is only him stating what others have also said, that the top 3 teams have a huge budget advantage that simply cannot be matched by any other teams. They have the entirety of corporate Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, and Renault (who will probably next year or two, IMO, be showing a similar advantage) behind them. The prestige of these companies means they simply must be competing excellently, so they have whatever budget is needed to top the others and vast sums are available if the budget is not enough. 

 

This is at least the second time I've seen someone over-interpret what Haas has said to mean he's ready to leave or having buyer's remorse or similar. All he's doing is expressing that it's a tough business and he wishes the playing field was more level. 

 

I hope you're right, but I'm going to stick to my view and I really hope I'm wrong...  

 

But I have my worries about an enterprise where one car other than one of the Big 3 has made the podium.  If that's the measure of success, that a 1 out of 45 success rate.  The only sponsor who'd be interested in a ROI like this would be one who is spending his own money, or one who misunderstood how hard the enterprise was.  I hope like hell that HAAS Inc. is selling CFC machines like hotcakes based on his running an F1 team, I really do.

[Anja]

There's some talk going on that the deal between Williams and Rich Energy was pretty much ready to sign, but it fell through when Williams asked for proper proof of RE's finances. It's suggested that while they do indeed have the money, its sources are pretty questionable.

 

I have no solid sources though, just some rumours. 

Edited by Anja, 27 October 2018 - 11:34.

[KWSN - DSM]

There's some talk going on that the deal between Williams and Rich Energy was pretty much ready to sign, but it fell through when Williams asked for proper proof of RE's finances. It's suggested that while they do indeed have the money, its sources are pretty questionable.

 

I have no solid sources though, just some rumours. 

 

And Gene Haas say they did their due diligence... so rumors and facts... I am willing to stand with egg on my face sometime in the future if the chips fall that way.

 

[Pete_f1]

It's a good question as to where the millions would come from

[Stallknecht]

Well Gene Haas is not exactly a saint when it comes to money, and how to earn it : http://archive.vcsta...352747731.html/

[paulb]

Well Gene Haas is not exactly a saint when it comes to money, and how to earn it : http://archive.vcsta...352747731.html/

patent infringement lawsuit too. 

[BalanceUT]

patent infringement lawsuit too. 

Nowadays, patent infringement lawsuits  are not all created equal. There are a dozens of law firms that specialize in purchasing patents and suing anyone and everyone they can find for anything that looks remotely related to it. Because for many companies it's cheaper to settle out of court, that's a frequent outcome. 

Edited by BalanceUT, 27 October 2018 - 18:28.

[Myrvold]

Nowadays, patent infringement lawsuits  are not all created equal. There are a dozens of law firms that specialize in purchasing patents and suing anyone and everyone they can find for anything that looks remotely related to it. Because for many companies it's cheaper to settle out of court, that's a frequent outcome. 

 

Not that it excuses anything...

[BalanceUT]

Nowadays, patent infringement lawsuits  are not all created equal. There are a dozens of law firms that specialize in purchasing patents and suing anyone and everyone they can find for anything that looks remotely related to it. Because for many companies it's cheaper to settle out of court, that's a frequent outcome. 

 

 

Not that it excuses anything...

I should have been more clear. The suits are often bogus, but the cost of defending is so high that it's cheaper to settle. A few companies have decided to always fight it out, many settle even the bogus claims. That is, there's a decent chance that the suits are entirely bogus. 

Edited by BalanceUT, 28 October 2018 - 01:14.

[loki]

Well Gene Haas is not exactly a saint when it comes to money, and how to earn it : http://archive.vcsta...352747731.html/

Welcome to 10 years ago.  Way to keep up...   

 

It's well known in the industry and several of us have mentioned it here multiple times.

[loki]

https://www.motorspo...ula-15/3198093/

 

Sounds to me like he is having buyer's remorse.  And to my point about who's in the market to buy a team / start a new one, who is lining up?  it seems like both the market and Liberty have settled on 20 cars.

 

Seriously, what did he expect?  And 2021 won't be a solution.  

 

 

If I was after cracking the top four, I probably wouldn't be getting Dallara to build me what is effectively a year old Ferrari.

 

I can only presume that Bernie made him promises about future rules or budgets that haven't come to fruition. Because at no point in the past thirty years has his "NASCAR satellite" concept been a viable path to winning in F1.

 

You boys are just frumpled some American bloke came in and within three seasons is consistently in the hunt as the best of the rest.  An American Nascar guy no less.  That's gotta hurt.  A guy came in with a staff of under 200 and a budget far less than the other non factory teams and is able to consistently best them.  Give the year old Ferrari thing a rest.  That's been disproven many times over the last couple of years and it's only something that someone desperate to avoid the reality that a brand new team is beating teams that have been in the sport for years.  Cry me a river...  If it was really a Ferrari they'd be in third place, not fifth.  Even with the two loose nuts they have behind the wheel.

 

So with Claire Williams and Otmar Szafnauer saying the same sorts of things they must be ready to sell as well.  Did it ever occur to you that they are all publicly lobbying their positions so a more equitable deal can be had by the smaller teams?  Of course it didn't.  With what they now make in prize money and what may be coming in from Rich Energy they'll have enough to just about break even while still promoting the machine tool company.  (assumes US$65 mil total prize and US$20 mil sponsor on US$100 mil budget) Which, FWIW, has been the title sponsor since the inception of the team.   It's not just the bloke's name, it's the name of the largest machine tool company outside of China and reportedly the third largest in the world.  Haas Automation has only been making a big push in Europe for the last five years or so.  I'd expect as long as he's selling tools worldwide and getting most of the cost covered by other sources he'll stay at it.

[Myrvold]

A guy came in with a staff of under 200 and a budget far less than the other non factory teams and is able to consistently best them. 

 

Of course you have a smaller staff,and a lower budget when you don't do thing in-house.

Edited by Myrvold, 28 October 2018 - 03:58.

[Stallknecht]

Welcome to 10 years ago. Way to keep up...

It's well known in the industry and several of us have mentioned it here multiple times.

Just thought it was relevant in relation to the new sponsor.. But you decide whats relevant, I forgot that.

Edited by Stallknecht, 28 October 2018 - 04:30.

[loki]

Of course you have a smaller staff,and a lower budget when you don't do thing in-house.

Which is the point of that model and they are still beating the others.  There is a pretty good chance had they not shot themselves in the foot several times over the season they'd be ahead of Renault.  One of the downsides is they are relying on suppliers for production and things like quick iterations last minute changes become much more difficult.  Having said that is it worth what may very easily be a US$100 mil investment in infrastructure and personnel to really have the potential to be no better than they are now?  Besides Red Bull they're arguably the best non-works team on the grid even with all the warts.  A fair amount of the time they're better than the smallest works team.  The model works even though it can't win a championship or at this time stand a chance at a podium.  Except for six cars none of the other full constructors can do that either.

[loki]

Just thought it was relevant in relation to the new sponsor.. But you decide whats relevant, I forgot that.

 

Apply whatever moral litmus you like to the man's past behavior.  This isn't relevant to what's happening now.  You're using it as a bridge to imply some sort of nefarious behavior with Rich Energy with no knowledge of the deal.  The implication is that since you think there is suspicious activity with regards to Rich Energy due to Haas' prior conviction that he must be implicated as well.  If not to imply something was fishy here why even bring it up?  Selling title sponsorship on a race car is completely legal.

 

Perhaps you could indulge me by saying why you think Gene Haas' felony conviction is relevant in signing a sponsor agreement.

[Steve99]

I admire Gene Haas for the way he's done things. I couldn't care less about what he has/has not done in the past. In business, there are very few angels, and a lot of potential pitfalls. One of which concerns me now, and this is that the Rich money looks sort of, well, not dodgy, but where is it? A friend of mine posted this in a group I frequent: "...for the year ended in September, Rich Energy had a total of £581 in its bank account, assets of £2.7m and liabilities of £1.8m.' I know that's not the be all and end all, and so on, but is it indicative of a company with the wherewithal to provide such a sponsorship deal?  I like this sort of stuff, all good fun.

[loki]

The quote about 581 in the bank was from year end Sept 2017 and not this past September.  Not having much cash in that account doesn't necessarily mean they don't have funds or access to funds.  Like most others I am curious to see what the deal is with this Storey chap.  Could be he's wallowing in cash or could be he's talking out his arse.  I think it's far to early to think anything shady is going on.  There is nothing to support that.  But there's really nothing to support they've got the cash to become a title sponsor let alone had been in a position to buy a team.  That doesn't mean anything dodgy is happening it just means they wouldn't have that much dough.  Until we know more about the bloke and his finances we won't be able to even hazard some sort of educated guess.  I suppose we'll find out when sponsorship bills become due and it's time to livery the car.

 

Here's a link to that filing.

https://document-api...32f64f5dab03968

 

 

[DoodoolTalla]

The quote about 581 in the bank was from year end Sept 2017 and not this past September.  Not having much cash in that account doesn't necessarily mean they don't have funds or access to funds.  Like most others I am curious to see what the deal is with this Storey chap.  Could be he's wallowing in cash or could be he's talking out his arse.  I think it's far to early to think anything shady is going on.  There is nothing to support that.  But there's really nothing to support they've got the cash to become a title sponsor let alone had been in a position to buy a team.  That doesn't mean anything dodgy is happening it just means they wouldn't have that much dough.  Until we know more about the bloke and his finances we won't be able to even hazard some sort of educated guess.  I suppose we'll find out when sponsorship bills become due and it's time to livery the car.

 

Here's a link to that filing.

https://document-api...32f64f5dab03968

I looked through their social media and it seems like David Sullivan (Billionaire West Ham co-owner) has bought a stake or invested in the company. They still looks dodgy as hell. Their social media looks like one of those dodgy fx trading accounts with fake lavish lifestyles 

[Ragnar668]

(stolen from Reddit)

 

Their testimonials have been debunked   

https://richenergy.com/testimonials/

 

 

Taiko

 

19 points·2 months ago

Having said that, using their testimonials page on their website:

Testimonial 1 doesn't include it on their drinks menu.

Testimonial 2 includes them on their list of sponsors but they must be a tiny contributor because the logo doesn't appear on the bike.

Testimonial 3 cannot be confirmed or denied via the internet.

Testimonial 4 is the same as testimonial 1!

Testimonial 5 - forgive me if I'm unconvinced that this was written by the manager of this place or why on earth they would be a stockist.

Testimonial 6 - God knows how many 'Dukes Head' pubs there are in the UK, so unverifiable. Again, not exactly top-drawer endorsement.

Testimonial 7 - it doesn't appear anywhere in their catalogue.

Testimonial 8 - I assume this is the Amber lounge that organises F1 parties. Pretty much unverifiable, but it's not on their list of sponsors and partners and googling throws up nothing.

Testimonial 9 - another pub.

Yep, they're full of ****.

[Steve99]

The quote about 581 in the bank was from year end Sept 2017 and not this past September.  Not having much cash in that account doesn't necessarily mean they don't have funds or access to funds.  Like most others I am curious to see what the deal is with this Storey chap.  Could be he's wallowing in cash or could be he's talking out his arse.  I think it's far to early to think anything shady is going on.  There is nothing to support that.  But there's really nothing to support they've got the cash to become a title sponsor let alone had been in a position to buy a team.  That doesn't mean anything dodgy is happening it just means they wouldn't have that much dough.  Until we know more about the bloke and his finances we won't be able to even hazard some sort of educated guess.  I suppose we'll find out when sponsorship bills become due and it's time to livery the car.

 

 

 

I stand corrected Loki, guilty of not checking my sources! It's certainly an interesting affair. He doesn't have links to a Nigerian prince, does he?

[drpfeffer]

It seems the car is back on pace for brazil this weekend as the cars were P7/P8 in FP1 and P6/P9 in FP2, looking forward to this race-weekend! :-)

[theflyingwheel]

It seems the car is back on pace for brazil this weekend as the cars were P7/P8 in FP1 and P6/P9 in FP2, looking forward to this race-weekend! :-)

It looks like a strong track and results in FP have been good lets hope its drivers so their part of the job and deliver this time unlike the previous races.

[Galoredk]

Tbh, they have not had the strongest mid field car the last two races, by far. Other races, yes. But lately they have been overtaken in development by Renault and Racing Point.

Makes sense btw. Force India ran out of cash and thus their performance dropped. Now they got cash and they’re back on track.

[efuloni]

Pietro Fittipaldi is the test driver for 2019.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Such a strange car this Haas is. They stopped development a few races back, looked like they fell behind Racing Point and Renault again, but on this track they seem best of the rest again.

[Neno]

Such a strange car this Haas is. They stopped development a few races back, looked like they fell behind Racing Point and Renault again, but on this track they seem best of the rest again.

I't hard to understand car when it's not technically yours. 

[paulb]

I't hard to understand car when it's not technically yours. 

what an absurd statement.

[Neno]

what an absurd statement.

I meant that as compliment. Just look at Renault. They build their own engine, chassis, make their own parts and they are still slower than Haas on good amount of circuits. Now that's absurd when you build your own car from scratch and you dont understand it as you get lapped by your customer team.  

[loki]

I meant that as compliment. Just look at Renault. They build their own engine, chassis, make their own parts and they are still slower than Haas on good amount of circuits. Now that's absurd when you build your own car from scratch and you dont understand it as you get lapped by your customer team.  

The is not "technically" a Ferrari.  It's a Haas.  Period.  End of story.  The issue isn't that they don't understand the chassis so much as it is they have to integrate all the other parts to their chassis instead of building all the other parts around the chassis.  We've seen this with brakes and brake cooling and suspension issues where they can't get heat into the tires.  The upside is they can do more with less money but the downside is if they can't integrate all those parts (basically everything but the listed chassis parts) they have different sorts of issues.

[loki]

Had to go back a good 10 pages but it's worth it to show to the haters those that think the car is a Ferrari that it's not. 

 

From Piola and Summers The details that proved Haas is no Ferrari clone

https://www.motorspo...review/4317285/

 

As many have noted the designs were "inspired" not only by Ferrari but by pretty much most everyone else.  IOW, what the other teams do except they all put their own twist on it to make it better for their car.  The pics are elements that are unique to Haas on several listed parts.  There is a great comparison shot of the barge board change that led to the protest.

 

BTW, Santa brought me the 2015/2016 Piola tech year in review.  Fantastic details on those seasons.