27 replies to this topic

[Bob Riebe]

There is a piece on a 1958 Facel-Vega over at the Mac's Garage site.

 

Love or hate those years, I do not think the '57 Chevy is the best looking, take that Facel-Vega or an another year, park it in a car show that concentrates on the years listed in this threads title and nowadays, most youths would have no idea that was not from some maker in the Detroit three state area.

Actually too many gents in general would not know.

 

Back when you could get one for less than a new Caddy, I did not have enough money to get one, but I always thought they were the best looking foreign car before the sixties.

[JoBo]

There is a piece on a 1958 Facel-Vega over at the Mac's Garage site.

 

Love or hate those years, I do not think the '57 Chevy is the best looking, take that Facel-Vega or an another year, park it in a car show that concentrates on the years listed in this threads title and nowadays, most youths would have no idea that was not from some maker in the Detroit three state area.

Actually too many gents in general would not know.

 

Back when you could get one for less than a new Caddy, I did not have enough money to get one, but I always thought they were the best looking foreign car before the sixties.

 

Yes, the 1958 Facel is a great car although I prefere the look of the Facel Vega II.

But it makes no sense to claim it THE best looking car - simply because there is no THE best looking car! In fact there were always (!) so many very good looking cars around and at the end of the day beauty is always in the eye of the beholder!

 

But for sure the Facel is one of the best looking cars from that period. Nothing less...but also nothing more!

 

JoBo

[D-Type]

My grandparents lived a couple of streets away from Crystal Palace.  When we were staying with them, I was allowed to go to a race meeting there - on my own at the age of eleven.  The course car was a blue Facel Vega - I've never forgotten that and have had a soft spot for them ever since.

[kayemod]

My grandparents lived a couple of streets away from Crystal Palace.  When we were staying with them, I was allowed to go to a race meeting there - on my own at the age of eleven.  The course car was a blue Facel Vega - I've never forgotten that and have had a soft spot for them ever since.

 

 

 

Yes, and this is the even better looking, and apparently much improved Facel II, seen at Goodwood a few years ago. Back then it was probably my favourite car as well, still is in some ways, especially when I read that my lifelong motor racing hero Sir Stirling had one. His entrant Rob Walker had one as well, I've told the story on here before of how Rob's wife refused to drive the car, saying that it was too fast for her, she found it frightening. Clever Rob had the speedometer recalibrated so that it under-read significantly. Mrs Walker then drove it happily, never realising just how fast she was going. And didn't we all think that Rob was an honest, straight as a die Englishman? Clearly a really dodgy character.

Edited by kayemod, 25 February 2018 - 22:49.

[Gary C]

Surely Rob Walker was Scottish?

[dmj]

Great cars for sure but unfortunately quality standards of their build were not comparable to other specialized makes.

Quite known fact but recently got a fresh insight. A friend restorer had one in his workshop and was truly horrified with used building methods. He has a vast experience in restoring prestige Italian, German, English and American cars but says that he never saw anything so badly built in so many ways.

Still he didn't manage to convince me not to have one on my wishlist (although in my case it would be probably the most troublesome of them all, a 4-door Excellence).

 

As for the matter more suitable here, who else from the racing community used Facels as road cars? Apart of Moss and Walker I can think only of Maurice Trintignant but there surely had to be some others.

[kayemod]

Surely Rob Walker was Scottish?

 

Indeed, it's a little known fact that Rob's place of birth Rickmansworth, is in a small Scottish enclave, it's just inside the M25 in Hertfordshire.

[Ray Bell]

It's interesting that Chrysler allowed the makers of these cars, and others like Bristol, to modify the engines for a little more power and still give warranty on them...

In the case of the Facel-Vega there was an option of a 4-speed gearbox by Pont-à-Mousson, which in a form of trade-off was used on some Chrysler models. Not many of them, however.

The merging of a usefully powerful American V8 with a competent and good-looking European chassis added nicely to the variety of cars available in the era.

[D28]

 

 

As for the matter more suitable here, who else from the racing community used Facels as road cars? Apart of Moss and Walker I can think only of Maurice Trintignant but there surely had to be some others.

Their Home Page has a list of noted owners including a lot of actors and entertainers. I didn't recognize any racing drivers other than already mentioned. Tony Vandervell and Count Volpi are listed as owners.

Edited by D28, 26 February 2018 - 15:10.

[kayemod]

Their Home Page has a list of noted owners including a lot of actors and entertainers. I didn't recognize any racing drivers other than already mentioned. Tony Vandervell and Count Volpi are listed as owners.

 

As they only ever made 180 cars, there just weren't enough to go round. With production volumes that low, it's surprising that they made RHD versions, wonder how many made it to the UK, and how many are still with us?

[Sebastian Tombs]

As they only ever made 180 cars, there just weren't enough to go round. With production volumes that low, it's surprising that they made RHD versions, wonder how many made it to the UK, and how many are still with us?

 

 

Actually, while they did indeed make only 184 Facel II models the actual Facel total production was 2899...as follows:

 

FV1 (54-55)     46

FV2 (55-56     103

FV4 (56-57)     205

HK500 (58-61)    490

Facel II (62-64)    184

Facelia (60-62)    1210

Facel 6 (1964)    42

Facel III(63-64)    619

 

ST

[Eric Dunsdon]

Lance Macklin was a salesman for Facel Vega. He seems to have done quite well!.

[Sebastian Tombs]

AAMOI 26 RHD Facel IIs were built...Ringo had one, 'EPH 4B', among other notables

 

 

ST

[Sebastian Tombs]

A gem from the Facel owner/driver's manual..."Hold the steering wheel with both hands except when changing gear – Stay as close as possible to the centre of the road – Do not look at anything else but the road – Do not smoke – Do not change stations on the radio – Do not talk"  Some of today's tossers could take a few of those on-board :-/

 

ST

[Odseybod]

 

An HK500 competing in the VSCC's Pomeroy Trophy on Saturday. Sadly it didn't win.

[bradbury west]

Martin Buckley did a comprehensive and well researched tome on Facel Vega a few years ago, published by Palawan. Not the usual coffee table pot boiler. Recommended.
Roger Lund

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Sebastian Tombs
A gem from the Facel owner/driver's manual..."Hold the steering wheel with both hands except when changing gear – Stay as close as possible to the centre of the road – Do not look at anything else but the road – Do not smoke – Do not change stations on the radio – Do not talk"  Some of today's tossers could take a few of those on-board

No mention of the mobile phone?

Could it be that this reflected:

a) the type of buyer they attracted; or...

b) the abilities of the builders; or even...

c) concerns about insurance liability?



.

Edited by Ray Bell, 26 February 2018 - 23:10.

[Sebastian Tombs]

Martin Buckley did a comprehensive and well researched tome on Facel Vega a few years ago, published by Palawan. Not the usual coffee table pot boiler. Recommended.
Roger Lund

 

Yes. highly recommended

 

 

No mention of the mobile phone?

Could it be that this reflected:

a) the type of buyer they attracted; or...

b) the abilities of the builders; or even...

c) concerns about insurance liability?



.

 

a)  Not at all...for every Pablo Picasso, Ava Gardner and Christian Dior there was a Stirling Moss, Maurice Trintignant, Tony Vandervell, Rob Walker, Lance Macklin et al

 

b) The build quality was, in the main, superb but there were a few design faults, one of which may possibly have contributed, along with a blown tyre, to the Camus fatality.  There was a mod to the power steering installation that was fitted to all V8s after that notorious accident and should have been retro-fitted to all V8s (If you drive a Facel V8 it would be wise to check...some restorers have been known to leave the modification off).  Similarly Daninos had a bee in his bonnet about cockpit silence and comfort which resulted in less than optimum rubber attachment of the body to the chassis...this again is illustrated in the Camus accident.

 

c) No.

 

The Facel-Vega HK500 and Facel II were fabulous cars in their day and worthy successors to Delage and the other French Grandes Routiers of the 20s and 30s.  If you were lucky enough to ride in one and occasionally drive, as I was, you would have appreciated how special they were.  Even today they don't look 'old fashioned' in modern traffic and turn heads wherever they go.  The Facel II was described by Daninos as "totally elegant'...he was right.

 

ST

[Ray Bell]

Regarding point b...

I meant the driving ability of the builders. If, perhaps, they were not so competent as drivers they might have written the instructions based on their own capabilities.

[dmj]

Late and never realized plans for a Le Mans cars aside, Facel might be the first relatively big maker of "sports" cars that actually had no racing plans or program whatsoever. Some kind of Lamborghini predecessor. 

[Ray Bell]

One page I turned up stated that they didn't need to make money out of the cars either...

But when the got into the volume seller, the Facelia, that changed. Especially when they had to replace the engines in the first 300 cars.

[kayemod]

One page I turned up stated that they didn't need to make money out of the cars either...

But when the got into the volume seller, the Facelia, that changed. Especially when they had to replace the engines in the first 300 cars.

 

Never much danger of the Company making money...

 

The lovely looking Facellia was a disaster of course, and it eventually bankrupted them. The original 1600cc engine was a 4 cylinder designed by Weslake of all people, who should have known better. The crank was supported in only two bearings, with the inevitable flexing and timing problems. The last production Series 3 cars were fitted with Volvo power units, and as Ray says they replaced all the faulty originals, probably with the Volvos.

 

Somewhere I think I still have a road test of one of the original big Chrysler engined cars, liberated from my Dad's Autocar or Motor back in the early 60s. What has stuck in my mind was that the car averaged 13mpg on 5 star in their hands, though that figure probably wasn't so remarkable at the time.

 

Never having seen inside one, I can't comment of how well they were designed and made, but superficially the fit and finish looked absolutely superb, as good as anything I've ever seen. The Goodwood Facel II in the my photo had probably had an expensive restoration given its age, but the panel fits & shut lines etc looked 100%, unimproveable and up to the best current standards.

[Geoff E]

Somewhere I think I still have a road test of one of the original big Chrysler engined cars, liberated from my Dad's Autocar or Motor back in the early 60s. What has stuck in my mind was that the car averaged 13mpg on 5 star in their hands, though that figure probably wasn't so remarkable at the time.

I too remember seeing it when I were a lad.

You can see it again here without a visit to the loft - https://www.flickr.c...57619013213673/

Edited by Geoff E, 27 February 2018 - 13:54.

[Charlieman]

What has stuck in my mind was that the car averaged 13mpg on 5 star

 

Did the Facel Vega engine require five star petrol? Was that a daft note added by the reviewer? Ohh -- my engine needs a higher grade of fuel than these plebs understand.

 

Racing car engines of the time ran on three- and four-star petrol. Jaguar made low compassion (or compression) engines for countries where crap petrol was sold, a few years previously.

[Ray Bell]

Chrysler engines of the era were typically very low on compression...

Advertised "9.2:1" compressions actually calculated out as 7.3:1! They would run on kero.

[Terry Walker]

There's one here in Perth, I see it occasionally at car shows. V8, looks an early type.

[D28]

Chrysler engines of the era were typically very low on compression...

Advertised "9.2:1" compressions actually calculated out as 7.3:1! They would run on kero.

Yes I believe that is what attracted some of the Hollywod set. That the engine was uncomplicated, familiar and easy enough to maintain. Not highly stressed as some of the other exotics.The fuel mileage would not be a factor at all.

Edited by D28, 28 February 2018 - 03:46.

[JoBo]

Yes I believe that is what attracted some of the Hollywod set. That the engine was uncomplicated, familiar and easy enough to maintain. Not highly stressed as some of the other exotics.The fuel mileage would not be a factor at all.

A close friend of mine (and ex-Ferrari GTO-owner!) bought back the ex-Facel II of his father. To restore it was a nightmare and cost a fortune. I drove it in summer last year and it was great! A very civilized car and a car of great presence!

 

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 01 March 2018 - 00:01.