126 replies to this topic

[Vielleicht]

It seems to have been mentioned in the WTCR thread, but with more details expected at the Geneva International Motor-show next week a dedicated thread seems sensible.
 
http://e-racing365.c...tform-launched/

...the E TCR platform has also been announced by WSC Technology Ltd., a subsidiary of TCR organizer WSC Ltd.

 

The concept is set to become an electric touring car racing series in the future with promotional and media events planned in 2018 ahead of a launch.

https://www.touringc...volutionary-car

“Can you, for example, imagine a 100% electric touring car? We at CUPRA could. The new CUPRA E-Racer will be presented as a world premiere at the Geneva International Motor Show.

“This is a true motorsports car, delivering 300 kw of continuous power and up to 500 kw of peak power. It is the first electric racing touring car in the world.

“We thought about why racing should be efficient and clean, and by introducing a new and revolutionary car like this, we want to send to the racing world an important message: it is possible, it is spectacular, and it is also a lot of fun.”

[V8 Fireworks]

Superb!  Noisy internal combustion engines are anti-social.

[Ben1445]

Well this could make things interesting! 

 

What great circuits have noise restrictions on them? All involved could surely benefit from future ETCR visiting that kind of venue. 

[Vielleicht]

I've thought something like this to be inevitable for a while now. Touring cars seems another sensible place for EV racing to make inroads into and it was only a matter of time after FE got the ball rolling these last couple of seasons.

[Vielleicht]

More info on this from Geneva:

 

https://www.autospor...oncept-revealed

[Vielleicht]

Rimac (the Croation builder of electric hypercars) forms technical partnership with Cupra to work on the ETCR platform

https://e-racing365....p-on-e-tcr-car/

[Lee Nicolle]

I saw an article on You Tube with Tiff Needel driving a Tesla racecar,, it lasted 2 laps and overheated!

Worse very poor finish, just a stripped out streeter with a decent cage.

Electric cars have been around 100 years and are still yet to be practical. Leave electric for golf karts and milk floats where they have functioned ok for decades.

The problem if ever sorted out would cause electricity blackouts in every city as everyone plugs in their car. A problem all the electric geeks can never see.

Plus on a English motorway last year a charging point for electric cars then another for electric Nissans. Nothing like uniformity in charging!

And in Paris electric cars? plugged in on the street, obviously not well used as they were filthy and seemingly uncared for.

[Vielleicht]

Yeah I saw it too. Tiff is an EV agnostic bordering skeptic, but accepts there has to be a change because ICE is most certainly now an impractical solution for the future. And he was fair to note that it's early on in development for the car and was a scorching hot day in Barcelona. Bottom line is racing improved technology by pushing it to the extremes, just like it has for ICEs.

 

The problem if ever sorted out would cause electricity blackouts in every city as everyone plugs in their car. A problem all the electric geeks can never see.

Funny that this is not a prediction widely held by those tasked with ensuring electricity grids can meet demand. The UK's National Grid have modeled that even their current infrastructure could cope with demand.

[BRG]

 

The UK's National Grid have modeled that even their current infrastructure could cope with demand.

This the same National Grid that has periodically over the last few years told us that it is concerned about meeting present demands?

 

(not that I share Lee's view in this respect)

[Ben1445]

Thread revival! 

 

https://e-racing365....ebut-confirmed/

 

Should start in 2020. Announced today. 

[BuddyHolly]

Maybe it's because I'm ancient.. but whenever I see TCR, my mind instantly thinks of this..

 

https://imgur.com/a/0vlz36g

 

(sorry, I don't know how to link images so they automatically show)

Edited by BuddyHolly, 21 October 2018 - 13:28.

[HistoryFan]

there is no need for another electric Racing series...

[AlexPrime]

These news make me a bigger NASCAR fan...

[PayasYouRace]

there is no need for another electric Racing series...

 

More like, there's no need for only 1 electric racing series.

[Fatgadget]

This the same National Grid that has periodically over the last few years told us that it is concerned about meeting present demands?

 

(not that I share Lee's view in this respect)

It's called the Smart Grid  these days grand dad.And it rises to the occasion!...Think  additional wind farms  and  and  what not other clean energy generators. That is the future like it or not. I happen to like it.

[BalanceUT]

I saw an article on You Tube with Tiff Needel driving a Tesla racecar,, it lasted 2 laps and overheated!

Worse very poor finish, just a stripped out streeter with a decent cage.

Electric cars have been around 100 years and are still yet to be practical. Leave electric for golf karts and milk floats where they have functioned ok for decades.

The problem if ever sorted out would cause electricity blackouts in every city as everyone plugs in their car. A problem all the electric geeks can never see.

Plus on a English motorway last year a charging point for electric cars then another for electric Nissans. Nothing like uniformity in charging!

And in Paris electric cars? plugged in on the street, obviously not well used as they were filthy and seemingly uncared for.

Several errors of fact in the above:

 

1. Electrical generation capacity from a plant/grid is sized to handle the maximum load experienced on the system in a 365 day year. For most of the industrialized world that is mid-afternoons on the hottest summer days, when air-conditioning, heat from occupants, lighting, and equipment in office buildings and factories are maximums. People plug in their electric vehicles in the very late afternoons and evenings, meaning they are plugging in off the peak that was reached earlier in the day. Consistent with this, some utilities charge less per kWh for off peak power to encourage 'load offsetting' and designers of buildings can and have built storage systems of a variety of types to create things like cold/hot water at night for cooling/heating use during the day, battery storage at night, etc. 
    
2. Batteries in Formula e, and other automotive uses, have greater storage capacity per kg and unit volume as the years have passed. For example, the batteries used in the version 2 Formula E cars are 25% heavier than version 1, yet provide nearly double the kWh capacity. There is talk that Tesla is now behind the development curve on batteries compared to some European companies that are investing heavily and selling cars now (Jaguar being amongst those mentioned). So, using that anecdote of a Tesla is cherry-picking that may not represent the actual state of the art. Anyway, there have been race cars for several years now and they've figured out the cooling and vibration issues. In fact, how you figure those out is by pushing the tech to limits. 
    
3. Practicality depends on your usage, and the range of practical uses is growing as the technology continues to develop (see item 2, above). Right now, use of an electrical vehicle for a cross-continent road trip in North America, Europe, etc. will not match the experience of a gasoline or diesel powered vehicle. But, the reason isn't due to insufficient infrastructure (distribution of 'fueling' points). The reason is that the time to charge compare to fill with gasoline/diesel is orders of magnitude different. Instead of your trip's duration being determined by the length of driving time, it would be greatly influenced by mid-day recharging needs. For that reason, hybrids are a better solution for people who do longer road trips. Just look at this map to see how the infrastructure is built out: https://www.plugshare.com/
   
   However, for commuting and day-trips of a few hundred km or less, electric vehicles are as practical as a gas or diesel fueled car. You drive to your destination, plug in while you engage in activities at the location and drive home. For instance, my family regularly takes the 2.5 hour trip to Washington, D.C. We could park at a Metro station in the suburbs and ride the Metro into DC for the activities (something we do now with our conventional car). Not meaningfully different. This is a 3 year old article highlighting these stations being installed, there are doubtless many more now: https://www.washingt...m=.5e3a5dc4fbb7
    
4. Plug compatibility is an issue. While some charging stations have multiple plugs, others are dedicated to particular brands. Just as in the early days of video recording, 4 channel vinyl, peripheral connectors on computers, and other emerging technologies, several systems compete, eventually a meeting among the principals occurs with an agreement on some standards that all adhere to. There is no reason to think of that as more than a minor impediment that will be resoloved over time. 

 

I'm sorry you think that electric cars will not work. If you genuinely feel that way, maybe you should stick to the other threads that don't talk about this. 

Edited by BalanceUT, 21 October 2018 - 16:06.

[PayasYouRace]

My current car needs are ideal for a modern electric car. At the moment I'm working away from home during the week. Every Sunday evening I drive to work, a trip of roughly 90 miles. Then I don't need my car much during the week other than for the occasional runabout. On Friday I return home. During the weekends I'm generally sticking to the local area too.

 

While I don't see myself getting an electric car next year, when I plan to replace my current car, I can well imagine that my car after that could well be fully electric.

[BRG]

It's called the Smart Grid  these days grand dad.And it rises to the occasion!...Think  additional wind farms  and  and  what not other clean energy generators. That is the future like it or not. I happen to like it.

For the last four or five years, we have been told  - about this time of year - in all seriousness, that the UK's generation capacity is barely enough to nmeet current demands and any additional calls on the system would lead to brown-outs and even power cuts.  If you disagree, go and argue with the news media.  I am just reporting what they said.  And if you really beleive that the UK grid is smart, then you really aren't.very smart yourself, sonny.

[Vielleicht]

there is no need for another electric Racing series...

Ah we've got Formula One, no other series need ever use petrol!

[Vielleicht]

While Cupra is currently the only brand confirmed for the series, e-racing365 understands that other manufacturers are expected to announce entries later this year.

Hmm, interesting. I wonder who.

 

I do find the ETCR approach interesting though. As I understand it they plan on doing a Formula E first season and have a completely spec battery and drive-train shoehorned into whichever body shell the manufactures please. Doesn't even seem to matter if there's a market version available - that Cupra is basically a León TCR that has been (to be fair quite heavily and very well) modified to accommodate this battery and electric drive-train.

 

Quite a beefy EV power-train though - plans to be 300kW with peak of 500kW and a 65kWh battery.

[ezequiel]

I suppose the Golf and the RS3 could be transformed into e-tcrs using the CUPRA motors.

[Vielleicht]

Organisers expect 4-6 manufacturers come 2020

 

https://e-racing365....urers-for-etcr/

[Vielleicht]

Hyundai commits to ETCR

https://e-racing365....ommits-to-etcr/

[Ben1445]

Well. Electric racing is here to stay, like it or not. 

 

Very interesting that they're sort of following the FE model of providing a spec battery and motor system for the set up phase i but in touring cars. And then literally allowing manufacturers to shoehorn that system into a chassis which was never even designed as an EV. Seems like an odd way off doing things but ok. 

[Fatgadget]

Well. Electric racing is here to stay, like it or not. 

 

Very interesting that they're sort of following the FE model of providing a spec battery and motor system for the set up phase i but in touring cars. And then literally allowing manufacturers to shoehorn that system into a chassis which was never even designed as an EV. Seems like an odd way off doing things but ok. 

Far from odd if you ask me.Propulsion units and drive trains have been shoe horned here there and everywhere since the dawn of eh-propulsion units and drive trains!..Think Hot Rods!

[BRG]

Well. Electric racing is here to stay, like it or not. 

 

Very interesting that they're sort of following the FE model of providing a spec battery and motor system for the set up phase i but in touring cars. And then literally allowing manufacturers to shoehorn that system into a chassis which was never even designed as an EV. Seems like an odd way off doing things but ok. 

Perhaps it shows that this is a bit premature.  Racing ostensibly stock production models is fine if there is an array of such vehicles.  Bodging electrics into an ICE car and pretending it's a touring car is rather naff. 

 

As for electric racing being here to stay, well, maybe, but one swallow (FE) does not a summer make.  Roborace has effectively crashed, E-Rallycross seems to have stalled, the Jaguar series might happen as might this one, but both might yet peter out. 

[Ben1445]

Perhaps it shows that this is a bit premature. Racing ostensibly stock production models is fine if there is an array of such vehicles. Bodging electrics into an ICE car and pretending it's a touring car is rather naff.

As for electric racing being here to stay, well, maybe, but one swallow (FE) does not a summer make. Roborace has effectively crashed, E-Rallycross seems to have stalled, the Jaguar series might happen as might this one, but both might yet peter out.

I am not going to disagree with part one. I would actually rather see race-ready versions of Leafs and Zoes and so forth.

As for part two, I can only disagree completely. There's been the odd false start sure but for example, ironically, Peugeot quit WRX because eWRX isn't happening fast enough. Everything in background is pointing to EV racing being part of a new norm, it's just a matter of getting to that point. The Jaguar eTrophy is as good as a sure bet now, so they'll take the honours as the first production based EV race series come December. Who come after that is just a matter of time. Patience

Edited by Ben1445, 20 November 2018 - 19:58.

[BRG]

I am shocked that you don't agree.......

 

But look at it a bit more dispassionately.  FE has been successful, mainly due to Agag bankrolling it. It remains to be seen if it can stand on its own feet financially in the longterm, and whether the manufacturers piling in are not going to bugger it up as they so often do.  I would guess that it can, but the history of motor sport is littered with promising series that didn't last.  Can-Am for instance. 

 

Apart from FE, there are no - that's NO - EV racing series.  There are planned series but until several of them have made it into their third season in healthy condition, you cannot say that electric racing is here to stay. 

[PayasYouRace]

Electric racing will be here to stay when the only stock options for production based and club racing are electric and when the manufacturers stop producing ICE powered cars.

This isn’t going to happen overnight, but it seems very unlikely that motorsport in the future will only be historics.

[Ben1445]

I am shocked that you don't agree.......

But look at it a bit more dispassionately. FE has been successful, mainly due to Agag bankrolling it. It remains to be seen if it can stand on its own feet financially in the longterm, and whether the manufacturers piling in are not going to bugger it up as they so often do. I would guess that it can, but the history of motor sport is littered with promising series that didn't last. Can-Am for instance.

Apart from FE, there are no - that's NO - EV racing series. There are planned series but until several of them have made it into their third season in healthy condition, you cannot say that electric racing is here to stay.

In the first couple of seasons Agag was certainly bankrolling things (as you were so vocal about) but the number of sponsors now should be an obvious indicator to you that this has at very least started to change if not been entirely transformative already. Formula E is the proof of concept - EV racing now EXISTS and that means others can too.

At this point I have full confidence that the Jaguar series will happen and it will start in less than a month - then it will be two EV series. I’m not changing my stance, this is a change that is happening through motorsport and, thinking more dispassionately, it is something that is both overstated by idealistic supporters and underestimated by the hopeful skeptics. That sets up the apoplectic divide quite nicely.

For the record, frankly I thought Formula E had come too early when it was announced and was quite worried about that having a negative impact on the automotive industry as a whole. It has so far done the opposite. When I say EV racing is here to stay, I’m thinking long term. More than a decade. What that means in the short term I do not know. But I am confident in my prediction.

[Vielleicht]

I don't think there should be much doubt that zero emissions racing (by whatever means) will carve out it's place in the landscape of motorsport. There's just too much movement in the industry right now. What we can't predict as accurately is how large the EV presence will be. Or the hydrogen presence. Or the effect on racing the discovery of pixie dust in 2028 has (a joke with a serious point).

 

So I don't think it's a ridiculous claim to say EV racing is here to stay. It's a bold claim, sure... but not at all ridiculous.

[Vielleicht]

Well here goes something, Williams Advanced Engineering is scooping up battery supply contracts since losing the FE contract to McLaren. They were in the frame for eWRX (and still may be if they manage to launch that as a second tier as is the new plan), have taken over the contract for Extreme E and now look to be supplying the ETCR for 2020 as well.

 

https://e-racing365....eries-for-etcr/

 

 

ETCR is set to be the first ever multi-brand touring car series using fully electric production cars, and is set to launch in 2020 with a global championship.

 

... it will effectively use a reverse of the Formula E model, with a spec powertrain, battery and cooling system implemented into manufacturer-specific cars.

 

... Cupra and Hyundai are the two brands to formally commit to the series so far.

[RSRally]

Strong speculation Skoda will also join this series.

Do they plan to move away from a spec powertrain in the longer term, as FE did after season one?

[Ben1445]

I would imagine they would, right? This just seems like a bridging solution to tide them over until there are more road EVs that could be converted into touring cars. 

[Ben1445]

I am shocked that you don't agree.......

 

But look at it a bit more dispassionately.  FE has been successful, mainly due to Agag bankrolling it. It remains to be seen if it can stand on its own feet financially in the longterm, and whether the manufacturers piling in are not going to bugger it up as they so often do.  I would guess that it can, but the history of motor sport is littered with promising series that didn't last.  Can-Am for instance. 

 

Apart from FE, there are no - that's NO - EV racing series.  There are planned series but until several of them have made it into their third season in healthy condition, you cannot say that electric racing is here to stay. 

Dragging up an old one because by my reckoning we now have: 

 

Formula E (fifth season) 

Jaguar I-Pace eTrophy (first season) 

Smart EQ ForTwo e-cup (second season) 

 

[BRG]

Dragging up an old one because by my reckoning we now have: 

 

Formula E (fifth season) 

Jaguar I-Pace eTrophy (first season) 

Smart EQ ForTwo e-cup (second season) 

That's progress certainly.  The Smart car series seems to have been below everyone's radar!  It looks like a lot of fun and shows that production EV racing could be a practical and sporting success.  I'd definitely watch it if was on the bill at a race meeting.

 

Though it does seem a little odd that the two newer series feature rather unsuitable vehicles - an obese SUV and a top heavy micro-car - rather than something more obvious like Teslas or Leafs/Zoes.

[Ben1445]

It is a little odd that there hasn't been a place for the likes of Leafs, Zoes and Teslas I must say. 

 

I am impressed that the Smart series pulled together a 20 car field. Regional, low-cost production EV series seems to be pretty plausible if that's anything to go by. 

 

I don't think it would be unfair to say that the Jaguar I-Pace field is a touch disappointing in numbers, for now at least. Nor to say that it's because it is a relatively expensive global series and the only reason it has gone ahead is it has tagged itself onto Formula E, which has been fairly successful, and because of fundamental backing from Jaguar. Perhaps with a season completed and various updates to cars and format will make it more attractive to potential entrants for a second season. We shall see. 

 

I'm not sure about the TCR approach of fitting spec battery/powertrains into TCR chassis to be honest. I would rather that they went straight to the Leafs and Zoes. But then maybe it's good to have a few different approaches out there; the ones that prove successful will stay and those that are lacking will fall away. 

[Vielleicht]

ETCR on Track for Up to Four Events in 2020
https://e-racing365....events-in-2020/

 

Plan seems to be to get things going on this next year with at least one round in Europe perhap some overseas. Then scale up to a full global launch iwith regional off shoots similar to the TCR model.

 

Hyundai expected to launch a car for this in September

[FredrikB]

Ekström Signed as Cupra e-Racer Official Driver

 

https://e-racing365....rZwQpiZFlIq7FRk

 

[Vielleicht]

Hyundai have revealed their Velostar N ETCR at Frankfurt

https://e-racing365....eloster-n-etcr/

 

[ElectricBoogie]

I'd daily that Hyundai. But I used to own a beat up Mazda 323F.

As with everything, I'm curious about the relative laptimes that will be achieved.

[Vielleicht]

Some raw track action video of the Hyundai Velosar N ETCR testing at the Hungaroring

 

[Vielleicht]

JAS Motorsport, an official racing partner with Honda, have confirmed that they have started preliminary development of an ETCR entry.

https://e-racing365....n-etcr-program/

 

No current comitment from Honda to ETCR, but it indactes that the prospect of an entry could be being evaluated.

[balage06]

Alfa joins the party as well

 

[LucaP]

Wow..love that Alfa!

[Vielleicht]

Fantastic to see more interest in this

[Vielleicht]

JAS Purchases ETCR Kit for Research; No Race Plans
https://e-racing365....-no-race-plans/

 

Interesting. Honda affiliated JAS have bought an ETCR kit for internal research but don't have a plan to race yet, saying that such a programme would depend on manufacturer decisions about the strength of the BEV market in the coming years. Honda have been quite indecisisve and slow to act over EVs compared to other manufacturers, so this perhaps is no surprise. On the other hand they will have an EV, the Honda e, going into production with deliveries from summer 2020. Part of me wonders if, maybe seeing no commerical value in racing a retrofitted ICE Honda with an ETCR kit, they're getting JAS to get used to an EV platform so that they will be ready for the surely inevitable expansion of the ETCR rules to allow modified road EVs into the mix.

[balage06]

Kinda related: after VW announced the cancellation of their touring car programme, the rumours are getting stronger and stronger that Audi will understandably follow them, they already cancelled the introduction of their new 2020 TCR model and now it's also likely that they will pull the plug on their factory-supported WTCR project as well (but supplying satellite teams are still a possibility though).

And according to various sources, Hyundai is also thinking about reducing their factory effort to two cars.

 

So it seems that even though TCR is a very healthy format on the national and regional levels, it looks like it's getting less and less relevant from a global marketing perspective, as things stand, it wouldn't surprise me if ETCR would eventually become the WTCR in 5 years or so.

[Ben1445]

I get the whole reasoning behind electric conversion kits but I’m still not all that enthusiastic about it. The cars down as entering don’t even have an EV variant of the road.

I’d love to see Leafs, Zoes and the like doing this.

[ElectricBoogie]

I get the whole reasoning behind electric conversion kits but I’m still not all that enthusiastic about it. The cars down as entering don’t even have an EV variant of the road.

I’d love to see Leafs, Zoes and the like doing this.

I wish some government would actually support conversion kits. If you pretend to care about footprint...why render a car absolete and ready for the crusher just because it was born with an ICE in it? Conversion can be excellent. Big heavy batteries are needed less and less. We have faster charging and more chargers, drivetrains have become more efficient. VW, reluctantly, made the BEV version of the Golf and it was a shockingly good car. Garage tinkerers put together awesome conversion for cars that lost their ICE. And that's usually with batteries taken from another car.
A conversion kit racing series...perhaps not the most road/customer relevant thing on earth. Unless we can bring our car to a shop and have it converted. "I'm still on the fence between the Cupra kit and the Alfa kit, what do you recommend?".
I understand spec series, even for just the drivetrain. But I wish racing would be used to get more from batteries. 
Say,
- Maximum weight for HV + 12/48V batteries combined.
- Pre race testing of each individual car's drivetrain of well worth a season's racing.

- One for the whole season, hefty mass penalty if it dies other than in a crash

- Short heats with high power or longer races with swapped batteries. Make battery choice interesting. Allow a lighter car if the battery stuck in weighs less. Say, 1kg less battery, 2kg less car.

Please whatever is racced, let laptimes be good. Formula E is intentionally keeping itself SLOW. Nothing to do with budgets or fan demands. Just FIA mandate.