91 replies to this topic

[GenJackRipper]

A common complaint about Monaco is that modern day F1 cars are to wide to be able to pass on another on the track; that it's more of a parade than a race.
While I love Monaco, I do agree that there are too few places for passing.
Funny enough, if you look at the Grand Prix Historique, the olden cars have no problem with passing, but that is evolution; cars are getting bigger and wider.

So, the question is; how much would the track need to widen for more cars to be able to pass one another?
Obviously, there can't be widening everywhere (kind of hard to move the Casino and/or Hotel de Paris at Massenet), but the harbour could certainly be widened, the park between Café De Paris and the Fairmont Hairpin could move slightly inward, and also the section on Avenue d'Oestende in front of Hotel H'ermitage and Hotel de Paris could be widened on the expense of the viewing plattform.

I did a quick google map measurement on that last section I mentioned and the street is 9 meters wide.
How much more is needed for cars of today to be able to pass?

[Muppetmad]

Leave Monte Carlo alone.

[wingwalker]

Rascasse was already widened in early to mid 00's. I don't see any even semi-realistic change that can be done to help overtaking at this track, and so be it.

[hogstar]

Cars of previous era have been just a wide, it's just that aero plays such a huge part now. 

 

Track should be left alone, as any changes would have no effect. Monaco is what it is and although it is not the best race of the year, it is still the one I want to watch the most.

[ensign14]

Possibly not so much the aero as the braking.  If the good drivers brake at 300 and the best at 250, the best will pass the good.  But if those distances are 30 and 25, then there's no chance.

[wingwalker]

Also, I don't think it's the width, at least not alone. Straights in Monaco are short and not very straight which gives a massive advantage to the car in front when it comes to braking, and this is where overtaking happens.

[MasterOfCoin]

No need to widen Monaco, just drop it and go to Macau......

[sopa]

Maybe if they had the old-school Monaco layout without the swimming pool, with a reasonable straight and a heavy braking zone to Rascasse.

 

Nowadays there is nothing to do.

[pup]

About a meter should do it.  I say we call it a plan and get busy demolishing the entire town to make this happen.

[Risil]

I do think that as a race we humans are a bit too pleased with our ability to find a solution for everything.

Anyway, it's been quite amusing to watch how drivers have tried to pass there over the years. Remember Jenson pitching Wehrlein on his side at the entrance to the tunnel? Overtaking at Monaco is F1's big red button marked "Do not touch".

[Kerny1992]

No need to widen Monaco, just drop it and go to Macau......

About 2000 mile then....

[OO7]

There is significant development planned for Monaco, which well essentially extend the coastline into the Mediterranean.  Maybe F1 will benefit.

[boomn]

Having driven the 1967 era circuit in some racing games, I really love that old layout.  Many don't want to mess with tradition in Monaco, but it has already changed drastically over the years.  Besides the simple armco taking up less track width, the last sector had a completely different feel and was quite fast without the Nouvelle Chicane, Pool or Rascasse.  You approached Tabac faster so that seemed like a good overtaking spot, and the approach to the final hairpin was faster and straight in the braking zone. 

 

Can't go back on most of those changes, but I am curious what the result would be if they got rid of Nouvelle Chicane and used a basic left right chicane further down that straight, giving them more room out of the tunnel to get a run on the driver ahead.  Like the old Chicane du Port, just closer to Tabac.  But all those trees along there would be terrible for camera coverage

Edited by boomn, 15 March 2018 - 18:06.

[GenJackRipper]

About a meter should do it.  I say we call it a plan and get busy demolishing the entire town to make this happen.

As I explained, there are several places where you can widen without the need to demolish anything. Is one meter really enough? I was thinking like 5 meters; making it 14 meters wide.

 

There is significant development planned for Monaco, which well essentially extend the coastline into the Mediterranean.  Maybe F1 will benefit.

The Anse du Portier wont affect the Grand Prix track other than a new apartiment complex will have views of the cars coming down and seeing them going into the tunnel.

[GenJackRipper]

Monaco has been changed during the years, not significantly, but small changes.
This wouldn't be destroying anything, merely widening the road so more cars could pass.

[LBDN]

F1 is about the show (apparently...)

From a racing perspective there is no show

It should be dropped.

[JHSingo]

Funny enough, if you look at the Grand Prix Historique, the olden cars have no problem with passing, but that is evolution; cars are getting bigger and wider.

 

This is the true problem. I find it incredible that there's been talks about changing F1 tracks, when other categories are able to race there without such difficulty.

 

It's clear as day the problem is the cars. Reduce aero, and there's no need to change the tracks.

[Vitesse2]

Drivers have complained about the difficulty of passing at Monaco since 1929 ...

[SlipLtd]

Too much.

[Tsarwash]

[ArrowsLivery]

I don't think widening the track would have a positive effect. With these awful cars, you need to have a mile long straight just to get close enough to make a pass, and adding something like that to Monaco would ruin the flow of the track.

[noikeee]

An unrealistic large widening isn't going to do much when you look at the track layout. The straights are too short for overtaking. Let's imagine it's widened everywhere by 5 meters, fine. Where do you expect passing to happen?

[f1paul]

Leave it, but just make it 300KM like the old days. I said that they should do this for the 1000th race but they should continue this for every Monaco GP after that. 

[f1paul]

​Plus, rather than changing the track, why don't we just change the cars instead. In the 2011 and 2012 races, overtaking was possible. Now it's incredibly hard but then, you would see double figure overtakes. 

 

If you're going to change Monaco to improve overtaking, then why not change all the tracks to aid overtaking. Leave the tracks, change the cars. The cars are a bigger problem if you want overtaking, not the tracks. 

[GenJackRipper]

So you're all saying that widening isn't the issue, it's the lack of long straights? Hmm, good point.
And yes, the cars should be made slimmer, not wider.

Edited by GenJackRipper, 15 March 2018 - 19:23.

[Ellios]

The single most boring race of the year. Indy 500 straight after though! 

[Fatgadget]

F1 is about the show (apparently...)

From a racing perspective there is no show

It should be dropped.

Wot? F1 without Monaco is like...bread without butter!

[TennisUK]

It would be easier to make the cars narrower.

[RacingGreen]

No need to widen Monaco, just drop it and go to Macau......

 

Macau is also very narrow and no better a circuit with only has one obvious overtaking point. It only produces a great race every year because it uses F3 cars. If F1 cars were the size of F3 cars I'm sure Monaco would produce much better racing too, (after all the support races tend to be better than the GP itself.)

[Spillage]

Leave Monte Carlo alone.

This. The history and unique challenge of the Monaco would be an unacceptable compromise if they were to be sacrificed in favour of a few more overtaking moves.

[RacingGreen]

Maybe instead of changing the track they should try moving the DRS to the other side of the circuit (the tunnel) and adjust the chicane alignment about 20⁰ so it becomes an overtaking point. 

[Kalmake]

The safety brigade (aka F1 drivers) had DRS banned in the tunnel.

[Neno]

Leave Monte Carlo alone.

this. and change regs where cars are smaller in lenght and wide size, lighter, basically easier to steer.  maybe remove that *** halo so people could see something 

 

that should do it. Hey we fixed F1! 

Edited by Neno, 15 March 2018 - 20:53.

[noikeee]

Macau is also very narrow and no better a circuit with only has one obvious overtaking point. It only produces a great race every year because it uses F3 cars. If F1 cars were the size of F3 cars I'm sure Monaco would produce much better racing too, (after all the support races tend to be better than the GP itself.)

I don't exactly recall lots of passing in Monaco in GP2. It always played out just like F1 because the track's "overtakingability" is way ahead of most single seaters.

[boomn]

This. The history and unique challenge of the Monaco would be an unacceptable compromise if they were to be sacrificed in favour of a few more overtaking moves.

Here is an old circuit map to illustrate my earlier post about how much the circuit has already changed.  It used to be faster and had better overtaking potential between the tunnel and the start straight.  The pool and La Rascasse in the 70s changed that involuntarily, but F1 came up with the Nouvelle chicane in 1986 and that's the one area I think could be changed possibly for the better and, imho, without messing with the true heritage of the circuit

 

[RacingGreen]

There is significant development planned for Monaco, which well essentially extend the coastline into the Mediterranean.  Maybe F1 will benefit.

 

Not sure how looking at the map. Maybe Portier can be a bit wider or go round the other side of the roundabout that's going at the entry to the new land there (but that isn't really going to help overtaking much.)

Edited by RacingGreen, 15 March 2018 - 21:28.

[LBDN]

Wot? F1 without Monaco is like...bread without butter!

Ironically i don't like butter so the absence of it on my bread suits me just fine

[PiperPa42]

About a meter should do it. I say we call it a plan and get busy demolishing the entire town to make this happen.

I agree a meter should do. Chop the front and rear half meter of the cars.

[PayasYouRace]

Here is an old circuit map to illustrate my earlier post about how much the circuit has already changed. It used to be faster and had better overtaking potential between the tunnel and the start straight. The pool and La Rascasse in the 70s changed that involuntarily, but F1 came up with the Nouvelle chicane in 1986 and that's the one area I think could be changed possibly for the better and, imho, without messing with the true heritage of the circuit

The 1986 chicane layout produced the best overtaking spot on the modern layout. I don’t think changing it would be a good idea.

Not in reference to the above quote, what I like about Monaco is that it’s very much a pure street circuit. It’s quite rare nowadays. Baku is also 100% streets but it’s a different nature of the city, and Singapore is like Baku but with some permanent sections.

In an era when circuits are becoming more and more similar, Monaco’s unique challenge should be celebrated.

I also like that the circuit still has to adapt to the needs of the city and not the other way round.

[boomn]

The 1986 chicane layout produced the best overtaking spot on the modern layout. I don’t think changing it would be a good idea.

Not in reference to the above quote, what I like about Monaco is that it’s very much a pure street circuit. It’s quite rare nowadays. Baku is also 100% streets but it’s a different nature of the city, and Singapore is like Baku but with some permanent sections.

In an era when circuits are becoming more and more similar, Monaco’s unique challenge should be celebrated.

I also like that the circuit still has to adapt to the needs of the city and not the other way round.

You may be right about the chicane, but I can't help but wonder if more of a run between the tunnel and that chicane might be even better.  

[PayasYouRace]

You may be right about the chicane, but I can't help but wonder if more of a run between the tunnel and that chicane might be even better.

Perhaps a similar layout further along would also work, but I think what makes the current chicane so good is the tricky braking over the top of the hill as you approach.

[Izzyeviel]

Retractable pavements.

[wingwalker]

I guess I could see a chance - removing the Nouvelle chicane (which is not going to happen, but I'm thinking out loud) and possibly a slight change to Tabaco corner to slow it down to make the braking zone longer, although possibility of the latter is highly questionable as there is just no space there. But even with leaving Tabaco as it is, this would allow a car behind to use slipstream for a longer period than now and go to the inside before Tabaco as the bit before it is straight and not that narrow (for Monaco standards).

[Kalmake]

The chicane could be at a later point. It would make Tabac a non-corner, though.

[Rinehart]

Disagree that there isn't enough passing at Monaco. How many football matches end with none or just 1 goal in it. Would football be better if they made the goals 3 times as wide and every game had at least 15 goals. I don't think so. Tension is priceless.

The F1 season has a mix of races where you'll see breezy passing (China), hard work passing (Spain) and virtually impossible passing (Monaco). But that is part of creating the mix of challenges that makes up the championship. Monaco is a specific challenge of setting the most difficult and important qualifying lap of the year, followed by 2 hours of gruelling mistake free threading the needle. If people don't appreciate the nuances of Monaco, don't watch it, there are still another 20 races. But campaigning to create more overtaking to make this different one like all the others is the most beige idea I've heard for a while...

[ThadGreen]

Let's face it if a track owner proposed a new track for F1 and it resembled Monaco, tight street circuit with little or no straight which goes through a tunnel (which is how long?) and one side of the track is by the ocean and the pit area is not quite up to the standard of other tracks, they would be laughed out of the room.

Didn't Bernie sign a contract with Monaco whereby they do not have to pay to host their F1 race?

If you are emotional about Monaco then you want it on the F1 calendar if not leave it for the lower/slower/less wide formula(s).

[Tsarwash]

I agree a meter should do. Chop the front and rear half meter of the cars.

This is why we have different words for meters and metres. 

[Tsarwash]

Disagree that there isn't enough passing at Monaco. How many football matches end with none or just 1 goal in it. Would football be better if they made the goals 3 times as wide and every game had at least 15 goals. I don't think so. Tension is priceless.

The F1 season has a mix of races where you'll see breezy passing (China), hard work passing (Spain) and virtually impossible passing (Monaco). But that is part of creating the mix of challenges that makes up the championship. Monaco is a specific challenge of setting the most difficult and important qualifying lap of the year, followed by 2 hours of gruelling mistake free threading the needle. If people don't appreciate the nuances of Monaco, don't watch it, there are still another 20 races. But campaigning to create more overtaking to make this different one like all the others is the most beige idea I've heard for a while...

 

What is the point of having the race if overtaking is virtually impossible for any car, and actually impossible for the majority of cars ? Why not hand out points for qualifying and have a street party on the Sunday ? 

 

As Viz once said, 'Recreate your favourite Formula One race by threading brightly coloured beads on a string and then holding one end higher than the other.'

Edited by Tsarwash, 16 March 2018 - 14:20.

[Sterzo]

​Leave the tracks, change the cars. The cars are a bigger problem if you want overtaking, not the tracks. 

Exactly. The benefit would be seen everywhere, not just at Monaco. Maybe we could even start changing some of the Ludo board places back into racing circuits by digging up the tarmac run off and growing crops.

[Rinehart]

What is the point of having the race if overtaking is virtually impossible for any car, and actually impossible for the majority of cars ? Why not hand out points for qualifying and have a street party on the Sunday ? 

 

Ok firstly lets dismiss the nonsense, it's not "impossible" - its not like the soccer goal has been bricked up! It's incredibly difficult, granted, but it's incredibly difficult at some other circuits too. The slight possibility is what creates the tension. And racing isn't only about overtaking, it's about the challenges of driving incredible fast under pressure and strategy too.

 

In fact, 50% of the races in the last decade have been won from other than pole, that's better than the all-time average of F1 wins from pole which is closer to 40%. So the notion that there is no point racing on Sunday is completely false. There are just 4 races in history where there have been no overtakes. 1 was the 2003 Monaco GP, but a European, Russian and USA GP hold that record too. So you've clearly taken a position based on perception rather than reality. 

 

There is a lot of point in having a race that is of a different kind of challenge to say, the Italian Grand Prix. I think it's fascinating that the F1 championship tests drivers and cars under different circumstances throughout the season and to be honest, an F1 fan who doesn't appreciate this, especially the unique challenge of the Monaco GP, doesn't fully grasp the essence of Formula One imo. How can you hold a valued opinion on the ranking of F1 drivers if you don't appreciate the challenge of Monaco? Have you ever wondered why drivers are so enthusiastic about racing there? 

 

Fair enough if despite all this you find it boring. But the point remains, why change this one to be like all the others when you have 20 that are how you want them already?