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Fernando Alonso vs Stoffel Vandoorne 2018


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#1601 Bliman

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 20:53

Honestly mate ,aren't you tired at all?
Trying to defend one of the worst (in results) drivers that worked for the team ever?
And with what?
Wild theories about dirty games,and so on...

"It was pretty clear that Brown wanted Norris in"
Yea ,id want that too,even earlier to be honest.... come on they are not charity,Its not go-karting in the park.

"We dont know even half of the story" but yet u assume there is flaw, based on what?
If you know something that the rest of us dont, please let us know.

Nothing personal, I really respect you and your love for the driver you like,but imho to read the same narrative over and over whole season
makes me cringe and im sure its not just me.
I honestly dont think that you dont know f1 basics, but if you need others to point out why Stoffel's season was not good enough,well what can i say.

I thought not to post the first reply because I knew there would be reactions to it. And to be honest. I was frustrated we don't know the full story. But now I am more relaxed about it. But if Stoffel said there was much more going on behind the scene, then I believe him. When a journalist here in Belgium says there was dirty play then I believe him, because it is in accordance with what Stoffel says. Add with this that Brown has a benefit of getting Norris in F1. Then you have Norris who had a pretty bad season. You had Mclaren given Norris glory runs in the tests. You had Brown throwing Stoffel under the bus, when he suggested that there was nothing wrong with Stoffels car when it was clear in the data. There are much more and that is only the tip of the iceberg. I get that if you look at it superficial you would say, how crap he is. I thought in the same way before.By the way I have been following f1 now for about 35 years, but that doesn't mean you can find all the answers on the track. But let's say that what is going on behind the scenes is a big part of f1 to. But I don't want to start this whole again.I hope I can end here. Because there will be nothing positive in the outcome. You see him as crap, I guess such comments push me to write about it. But I want to end it peacefully. We will see what happens in the future. But I admit that it has been a tiring season, and that it sucked for me.

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#1602 BRG

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 21:19

The only reason that Zak Brown wanted Norris was because their super new talent Vandoorne had turned out to be a complete bust.



#1603 as65p

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 21:29

Yes I am sure they (a few in Mclaren, pretty certain of Zak Brown) played a dirty game. If Stoffel says it and there are also others that know it. Also it was pretty clear that Brown wanted Norris in as fast as possible. I so want to know everything but sadly that will not happen.

We don't even know half of the story I think. Stoffel said that he couldn't get in to it (which is understandable).

But like I said, nothing can come out of it. I just wanted to let some know that there is a lot more to the story.

Hopefully one day he get's his revenge.

 

Sure, F1 is brutal and not fair.

 

But the same I said to this months ago still applies. If Stoffel would have performed better, he could have forced the issue in his favour. It might well be that Brown or others favoured the Norris idea for marketing or other non-performance reasons. BUT, in SV had performed at a higher level, it would likely had them change their minds. IOW, nobody let's go of a driver looking like the next Verstappen for a short term marketing ploy. Those guys are brutal sharks, but they're not dumb.

 

And that inludes the possibility that SV was at times handicapped by the equipment. IF that were the case, McLaren would know it, they would know he's in reality better than the lap times show, and so the above applies just the same.



#1604 sopa

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 08:23

Considering Alonso was going to leave, Vandoorne would have surely been kept for continuity's sake had he performed adequately. Usually teams like to keep at least one driver. To change both drivers tells you that Vandoorne wasn't anywhere near good enough to justify keeping him.



#1605 kosmos

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 10:05

The team knows best, they know the reason why Stoffel didn't perform well. You don't get rid of a mega talent because he had a bad season, specially if you know there is reasons beyond the drivers control.



#1606 Clatter

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:21

The team knows best, they know the reason why Stoffel didn't perform well. You don't get rid of a mega talent because he had a bad season, specially if you know there is reasons beyond the drivers control.

But you do get rid of them when the expected mega talent doesn't fulfil their potential.

#1607 bogi

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 17:43

 

On 1:35 minutes Nico finds out about qualifying record.



#1608 statman

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:02

from F1metrics:

 

C9ZaqardoSmSaHacyHR_eEpBAFCrMBdxjoTGrBUY



#1609 xmanf1

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 23:37

The team knows best, they know the reason why Stoffel didn't perform well. You don't get rid of a mega talent because he had a bad season, specially if you know there is reasons beyond the drivers control.

 

I am very curious to hear what the team actually does know. I fully agree that in a normal situation you don't get rid of a mega talent just because he had a bad season but apparantly in this case they actually did it!

 

It is my first post here so I will introduce myself first: I am a 39 year old mechanical engineer with a background in aerodynamics and a passion for most sports with wheels including F1. I have been following the forum for some time but it is the first time that I am too curious to stay on the sidelines. I really want to know the details about what happened this season with the MCL33 #2 car. All of it! I hope I can find out more with your help. And to make myself clear: I am talking about Stoffel's car and not about Stoffel's apparent meltdown, sudden loss of talent and/or speed or whatever mental and physical collapse people believe suddenly happened. I don't buy it!

 

It is easy to point to the driver but the reality is that a sudden, dramatic change in driver performance is very unusual, in particular when the driver is an emotionaly stable, hard-working and focussed individual like Stoffel. It is easy to point to a statistic that says that he lost 20 qualies against his teammate so that proofs it. To the contrary, this statistic is actually part of the problem! History shows that if you get 20 chances, a clearly underperforming teammate beats his (much) better teammate at least a few times. That is simply the result of some luck or a bad day of the better guy (lack of focus, errors, whatever). While Fernando is a focussed, worldclass driver, he definitely didn't drive always perfect. Nonetheless, Stoffel underperformed all of the time. Prior to Silverstone, the gap was still minimal (sometimes very close) and you could make a case for Stoffel being just a bit slower than Fernando and not having the luck on his side to beat him once or twice. However, after Silverstone the gap increased to 0.4 to 0.8 seconds consistently. There were no close calls anymore. Stoffel noticed an issue with the car, got a new chassis but still started to complain about the performance of his car more frequently.

 

So what happend with Stoffel's car? McLaren admits that the MCL33 had a design flaw but didn't give us the details. Did it affect Stoffel more than Fernando because it limited the tuning of the car to Stoffel's style? Or was the issue actually so big that they had to focus time, knowledge and resources to one car only (Fernando's car obviously) to keep that car somewhat competitive for Q2 qualification and points (especially after Silverstone)? I tell you what I think happened. There was an issue with both cars and the issue likely got worse during the year when the other teams could improve their performance and McLaren clearly could not, so the stress to keep Fernando happy and somewhat competitive must have increased race by race. Maybe Stoffel was just the sacrifice, the black sheep that had to absorb all the sins of McLaren so they could hide their major flaws (at least to somewhat) and give Fernando a chance to battle for these crucial points. The cars did seem to perform reasonable during the race on not too speedy tracks so points were still possible later in the season. Coincidentally, this strategy had also a nice side-effect because Zak could bring Nando to the game next year and boost his marketing plans with a potential, future UK hero (with a Belgian mother btw) and sponsors by his side. With Fernando out and low expectations for the car, it would be a more 'soft' entry in to F1 for Zak's favourite. I can't image that this strategy was not visible for Stoffel but being an introvert and coming from a little country with no sponsors, he had not the right leverage to fight back. So to me, this is actually the most plausible theory about what happened.

 

If you have additional data or insights on Stoffel's performance vs Alonso, please post. The post of statman is interesting as it shows that Stoffel's average qualifying performance is still reasonable good, even including the races since Silverstone this year. Stoffel also beat Jenson Button in his first ever Formula 1 race while Jenson is just 0.17% slower than Fernando. I hope a fair analysis, with data and facts, can bring a better view on Stoffel's performance and show that he not just belongs in F1 but actually needs to be one of the future contenders of the title. He maybe more composed and less aggressive than a Verstappen but not less interesting. I also hope that the details of McLaren's dramatic performance and management issues come to light and show a different perspective on what happened to the team during the 2018 season.



#1610 Eruobodo

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 00:28

I am very curious to hear what the team actually does know. I fully agree that in a normal situation you don't get rid of a mega talent just because he had a bad season but apparantly in this case they actually did it!

 

It is my first post here so I will introduce myself first: I am a 39 year old mechanical engineer with a background in aerodynamics and a passion for most sports with wheels including F1. I have been following the forum for some time but it is the first time that I am too curious to stay on the sidelines. I really want to know the details about what happened this season with the MCL33 #2 car. All of it! I hope I can find out more with your help. And to make myself clear: I am talking about Stoffel's car and not about Stoffel's apparent meltdown, sudden loss of talent and/or speed or whatever mental and physical collapse people believe suddenly happened. I don't buy it!

 

It is easy to point to the driver but the reality is that a sudden, dramatic change in driver performance is very unusual, in particular when the driver is an emotionaly stable, hard-working and focussed individual like Stoffel. It is easy to point to a statistic that says that he lost 20 qualies against his teammate so that proofs it. To the contrary, this statistic is actually part of the problem! History shows that if you get 20 chances, a clearly underperforming teammate beats his (much) better teammate at least a few times. That is simply the result of some luck or a bad day of the better guy (lack of focus, errors, whatever). While Fernando is a focussed, worldclass driver, he definitely didn't drive always perfect. Nonetheless, Stoffel underperformed all of the time. Prior to Silverstone, the gap was still minimal (sometimes very close) and you could make a case for Stoffel being just a bit slower than Fernando and not having the luck on his side to beat him once or twice. However, after Silverstone the gap increased to 0.4 to 0.8 seconds consistently. There were no close calls anymore. Stoffel noticed an issue with the car, got a new chassis but still started to complain about the performance of his car more frequently.

 

So what happend with Stoffel's car? McLaren admits that the MCL33 had a design flaw but didn't give us the details. Did it affect Stoffel more than Fernando because it limited the tuning of the car to Stoffel's style? Or was the issue actually so big that they had to focus time, knowledge and resources to one car only (Fernando's car obviously) to keep that car somewhat competitive for Q2 qualification and points (especially after Silverstone)? I tell you what I think happened. There was an issue with both cars and the issue likely got worse during the year when the other teams could improve their performance and McLaren clearly could not, so the stress to keep Fernando happy and somewhat competitive must have increased race by race. Maybe Stoffel was just the sacrifice, the black sheep that had to absorb all the sins of McLaren so they could hide their major flaws (at least to somewhat) and give Fernando a chance to battle for these crucial points. The cars did seem to perform reasonable during the race on not too speedy tracks so points were still possible later in the season. Coincidentally, this strategy had also a nice side-effect because Zak could bring Nando to the game next year and boost his marketing plans with a potential, future UK hero (with a Belgian mother btw) and sponsors by his side. With Fernando out and low expectations for the car, it would be a more 'soft' entry in to F1 for Zak's favourite. I can't image that this strategy was not visible for Stoffel but being an introvert and coming from a little country with no sponsors, he had not the right leverage to fight back. So to me, this is actually the most plausible theory about what happened.

 

If you have additional data or insights on Stoffel's performance vs Alonso, please post. The post of statman is interesting as it shows that Stoffel's average qualifying performance is still reasonable good, even including the races since Silverstone this year. Stoffel also beat Jenson Button in his first ever Formula 1 race while Jenson is just 0.17% slower than Fernando. I hope a fair analysis, with data and facts, can bring a better view on Stoffel's performance and show that he not just belongs in F1 but actually needs to be one of the future contenders of the title. He maybe more composed and less aggressive than a Verstappen but not less interesting. I also hope that the details of McLaren's dramatic performance and management issues come to light and show a different perspective on what happened to the team during the 2018 season.

You do know Stoffel worked more closely with the Engineers than Fernando, he was always at the factory while Fernando just showed up at the track and drove the car?



#1611 revmeister

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:23

I am very curious to hear what the team actually does know. I fully agree that in a normal situation you don't get rid of a mega talent just because he had a bad season but apparantly in this case they actually did it!

It is my first post here so I will introduce myself first: I am a 39 year old mechanical engineer with a background in aerodynamics and a passion for most sports with wheels including F1. I have been following the forum for some time but it is the first time that I am too curious to stay on the sidelines. I really want to know the details about what happened this season with the MCL33 #2 car. All of it! I hope I can find out more with your help. And to make myself clear: I am talking about Stoffel's car and not about Stoffel's apparent meltdown, sudden loss of talent and/or speed or whatever mental and physical collapse people believe suddenly happened. I don't buy it!

It is easy to point to the driver but the reality is that a sudden, dramatic change in driver performance is very unusual, in particular when the driver is an emotionaly stable, hard-working and focussed individual like Stoffel. It is easy to point to a statistic that says that he lost 20 qualies against his teammate so that proofs it. To the contrary, this statistic is actually part of the problem! History shows that if you get 20 chances, a clearly underperforming teammate beats his (much) better teammate at least a few times. That is simply the result of some luck or a bad day of the better guy (lack of focus, errors, whatever). While Fernando is a focussed, worldclass driver, he definitely didn't drive always perfect. Nonetheless, Stoffel underperformed all of the time. Prior to Silverstone, the gap was still minimal (sometimes very close) and you could make a case for Stoffel being just a bit slower than Fernando and not having the luck on his side to beat him once or twice. However, after Silverstone the gap increased to 0.4 to 0.8 seconds consistently. There were no close calls anymore. Stoffel noticed an issue with the car, got a new chassis but still started to complain about the performance of his car more frequently.

So what happend with Stoffel's car? McLaren admits that the MCL33 had a design flaw but didn't give us the details. Did it affect Stoffel more than Fernando because it limited the tuning of the car to Stoffel's style? Or was the issue actually so big that they had to focus time, knowledge and resources to one car only (Fernando's car obviously) to keep that car somewhat competitive for Q2 qualification and points (especially after Silverstone)? I tell you what I think happened. There was an issue with both cars and the issue likely got worse during the year when the other teams could improve their performance and McLaren clearly could not, so the stress to keep Fernando happy and somewhat competitive must have increased race by race. Maybe Stoffel was just the sacrifice, the black sheep that had to absorb all the sins of McLaren so they could hide their major flaws (at least to somewhat) and give Fernando a chance to battle for these crucial points. The cars did seem to perform reasonable during the race on not too speedy tracks so points were still possible later in the season. Coincidentally, this strategy had also a nice side-effect because Zak could bring Nando to the game next year and boost his marketing plans with a potential, future UK hero (with a Belgian mother btw) and sponsors by his side. With Fernando out and low expectations for the car, it would be a more 'soft' entry in to F1 for Zak's favourite. I can't image that this strategy was not visible for Stoffel but being an introvert and coming from a little country with no sponsors, he had not the right leverage to fight back. So to me, this is actually the most plausible theory about what happened.

If you have additional data or insights on Stoffel's performance vs Alonso, please post. The post of statman is interesting as it shows that Stoffel's average qualifying performance is still reasonable good, even including the races since Silverstone this year. Stoffel also beat Jenson Button in his first ever Formula 1 race while Jenson is just 0.17% slower than Fernando. I hope a fair analysis, with data and facts, can bring a better view on Stoffel's performance and show that he not just belongs in F1 but actually needs to be one of the future contenders of the title. He maybe more composed and less aggressive than a Verstappen but not less interesting. I also hope that the details of McLaren's dramatic performance and management issues come to light and show a different perspective on what happened to the team during the 2018 season.


Welcome to the forum xmanf1! There is another Belgian on these boards going by the name of Bliman who has been following Stoffel's career as well. He may have some insight into what really happened. You two should to get together!

Edited by revmeister, 07 December 2018 - 12:26.


#1612 BRG

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:17

I wish that people could just accept that sometimes drivers fail to perform without concocting conspiracy theories that make Roswell look beleivable.



#1613 AustinF1

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:28

I wish that people could just accept that sometimes drivers fail to perform without concocting conspiracy theories that make Roswell look beleivable.

Wife & I have had a lot of fun with my boys driving through Roswell on trips over the years ... pretending the red areas on our navigation map were known alien areas. Good times. The alien museums are priceless, too.



#1614 Bliman

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 19:22

I think it is a combination of things.

Alonso needs to be kept happy all of the times (that is a known fact by now).

Stoffel has said that there was much going on behind the scenes but cannot go into it.

Zak wanted him out of the team as soon as possible (he was already talking with other drivers in Bahrain, so don't believe Zak that he was behind Stoffel).

Zak had a monetary benefit with Norris (he is his public manager I think). Also Alonso (Brown is a major major fan of Alonso) was constantly talking to take Sainz.

It has been seen that some times Alonso had a different car then Stoffel.

Also I have never have seen anyone explain to me why Stoffel all in a sudden would be a trash driver. It just doesn't make any sense. He has done brilliant in any series.

But most of the time you hear such superficial stuff, that he is a crap driver, that there are other drivers that were good before but sucked at F1.

I don't buy into it.

There also changed something in Monaco, he was fastest in most sessions (I think) and from then on it fell apart.

You also had a teammate that is a very political player that kills you with a smile, and is a wonderful driver.

Then you have the confidence thing with Stoffel, he knew he hadn't got a better chance and tried to get the most out of it, but with the knowledge that he couldn't fight. There could be many explanations why (some I stated above), but he also didn't take risks because Brown would have more ammunition to come after him. It is difficult to fight if you know the leaders are not behind you.

The car was also horrible and did not work with the style he drives, Alonso can drive around these things (along with the benefits of above can make a big difference).

Stoffel could have been a future great if he could have begun in another team (see Gasly or Leclerc).

But sadly F1 is not all about driving but also a lot about politics.

This is also an interesting article https://racingnews36...EgVBbewgGqjG9NU

With that all said I don't blame everything on another , Stoffel had to know in which snakepit he was getting into and should have been more agressive. He was led to the slaughterhouse.



#1615 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 21:26

Priceless



#1616 Bliman

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 22:39

Priceless

I aim to please :)



#1617 Bliman

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 22:41

And also , Darned I had been suckered in again.

But he asked so nice. :lol:



#1618 Bliman

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 22:52

And now with this I will stop posting in this thread.

I                  must                              resist                        .

  I              must                        resist                      .

My flesh is weak but my mind to it seems. :lol:

So next time just say that I have said that I stopped posting in this thread. And that I should man up.



#1619 Lights

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 08:51

Stoffel also beat Jenson Button in his first ever Formula 1 race while Jenson is just 0.17% slower than Fernando. I hope a fair analysis, with data and facts, can bring a better view on Stoffel's performance

 

You don't practice what you preach.



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#1620 sopa

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 08:58

It's Ricardo Zonta all over again. F3000 champion, sportscar champion. Put him into F1 car, couldn't get near Villeneuve.

 

Now I can't remember, how many excuses were made for Zonta (i.e BAR was JV's team and all that), but never mind.



#1621 sopa

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 09:04

from F1metrics:

 

C9ZaqardoSmSaHacyHR_eEpBAFCrMBdxjoTGrBUY

 

These graphs indicate well, how such statistics without context are often misleading.

 

I mean Button couldn't outqualify Barrichello, Perez and Magnussen in team-mate battles, and now we are supposed to believe based on that he was one of the better qualifiers? Nah.

 

I think it's more likely Alonso declined in one-lap trim late in his career (nobody would ever admit it though), that's why his gaps over Button and Vandoorne were smaller than the gaps over some previous quality drivers.


Edited by sopa, 08 December 2018 - 09:08.


#1622 kosmos

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 09:32


 

I think it's more likely Alonso declined in one-lap trim late in his career (nobody would ever admit it though), that's why his gaps over Button and Vandoorne were smaller than the gaps over some previous quality drivers.

 

 

Or maybe he was getting the most of the car (most of the time) and it was impossible to increase the gap.



#1623 prty

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 09:42

These graphs indicate well, how such statistics without context are often misleading.

I mean Button couldn't outqualify Barrichello, Perez and Magnussen in team-mate battles, and now we are supposed to believe based on that he was one of the better qualifiers? Nah.

I think it's more likely Alonso declined in one-lap trim late in his career (nobody would ever admit it though), that's why his gaps over Button and Vandoorne were smaller than the gaps over some previous quality drivers.


Or that these days with drs and melting tires, having a good setup for the race and not qualifying was more important.

#1624 xmanf1

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:07

I wish that people could just accept that sometimes drivers fail to perform without concocting conspiracy theories that make Roswell look beleivable.

 

Please elaborate what 'conspiracy theories' I am talking about? I am just stating facts and observations that are in line with what we know. My only purpose here is to get more statistics and info that could bring us closer to what really happened.



#1625 Kev00

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:11

These graphs indicate well, how such statistics without context are often misleading.

I mean Button couldn't outqualify Barrichello, Perez and Magnussen in team-mate battles, and now we are supposed to believe based on that he was one of the better qualifiers? Nah.

I think it's more likely Alonso declined in one-lap trim late in his career (nobody would ever admit it though), that's why his gaps over Button and Vandoorne were smaller than the gaps over some previous quality drivers.


He went from having Räikkönen as teammate in 2014 to Button in 2015. Just how much do you think he declined over the winter?

#1626 sopa

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:22

Well, I'm sure there are various possible explanations. Another possibility is that the handling of McLarens is more "driver-friendly". Which means smaller gaps. If a car handles like a pig it's more likely to exaggerate gaps between team-mates.



#1627 xmanf1

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:56

I think it is a combination of things.

Alonso needs to be kept happy all of the times (that is a known fact by now).

Stoffel has said that there was much going on behind the scenes but cannot go into it.

Zak wanted him out of the team as soon as possible (he was already talking with other drivers in Bahrain, so don't believe Zak that he was behind Stoffel).

Zak had a monetary benefit with Norris (he is his public manager I think). Also Alonso (Brown is a major major fan of Alonso) was constantly talking to take Sainz.

It has been seen that some times Alonso had a different car then Stoffel.

Also I have never have seen anyone explain to me why Stoffel all in a sudden would be a trash driver. It just doesn't make any sense. He has done brilliant in any series.

But most of the time you hear such superficial stuff, that he is a crap driver, that there are other drivers that were good before but sucked at F1.

I don't buy into it.

There also changed something in Monaco, he was fastest in most sessions (I think) and from then on it fell apart.

You also had a teammate that is a very political player that kills you with a smile, and is a wonderful driver.

Then you have the confidence thing with Stoffel, he knew he hadn't got a better chance and tried to get the most out of it, but with the knowledge that he couldn't fight. There could be many explanations why (some I stated above), but he also didn't take risks because Brown would have more ammunition to come after him. It is difficult to fight if you know the leaders are not behind you.

The car was also horrible and did not work with the style he drives, Alonso can drive around these things (along with the benefits of above can make a big difference).

Stoffel could have been a future great if he could have begun in another team (see Gasly or Leclerc).

But sadly F1 is not all about driving but also a lot about politics.

This is also an interesting article https://racingnews36...EgVBbewgGqjG9NU

With that all said I don't blame everything on another , Stoffel had to know in which snakepit he was getting into and should have been more agressive. He was led to the slaughterhouse.

 

In general I follow your reasoning but I doubt there was a confidence issue that impacted his results. In general, race days were much better than qualifying so he didn't really show this lack of confidence on the track during the race. It is true he could have been more agressive, especially during his starts, but the 'all or nothing' style has never been his mantra, he is too calculated for this. During the final races, when he definitely could be more relaxed and more aggressive because he shouldn't care much, he was still around half a second behind Fernando while his race driving was great. So the issue with the qualifying speed of his car remained until the very end. It is basically the last 10 races that make it very clear to me that something is wrong with the car and not just with the driver.

 

I do agree that he should have been more careful about the snakepit that materialized in front of him. I guess he had too much trust in the management early in the year and, as a result, he showed his loyalty to be too much a teamplayer. When Zak's plan materialized there was indeed little he could do, having an underperforming car and results that didn't speak in his favor. I am not sure this would have been evident for anyone in his situation, looking at how he came in to F1. 



#1628 xmanf1

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:57

You don't practice what you preach.

 

Tell me



#1629 Lights

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 11:50

Tell me

 

Stoffel didn't beat Jenson that race. Jenson retired with a mechanical issue while running in front of Stoffel.

 

You'd have to maintain a rather crude definition of 'beat' if you want to claim such, and that definitely wouldn't be the fair analysis of Stoffel you're hoping for.



#1630 Acathla

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:08

I read a lot of disappointment here. Maybe Stoffel wasn't that good after all. Instead of a lot of theory, I'd like to see some hard facts and no more assumptions. 



#1631 fzaza

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:34

Stoffel had two seasons to prove himself, that's more than enough for someone who won everything in lower categories...

Many drove against Alonso and did not lose a drive in F1 because of that, why ? Because they were good enough to stay in F1...

Stoffel just wasn't...

 

Professional racers are all good including Stoffel, and those who make into F1 are "supposed" to be exceptional, and in 90% of the time it's the case, but from time to time, you stumble on that 10% failure rate, a driver that can't find the last 0.2 of a second that an exceptional F1 driver should have... and that's what happened to Stoffel



#1632 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:45

Please elaborate what 'conspiracy theories' I am talking about? I am just stating facts and observations that are in line with what we know. My only purpose here is to get more statistics and info that could bring us closer to what really happened.

 

Your whole 4th paragraph is one big conspiracy theory that, like all conspiracy theories do, cherry-picks factoids and embeds them into a narrative that suits your preconception



#1633 BRG

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 17:28

Please elaborate what 'conspiracy theories' I am talking about? I am just stating facts and observations that are in line with what we know. My only purpose here is to get more statistics and info that could bring us closer to what really happened.

 

What really happened was that Vandoorne fell falt on his face.  But you want to find 'reasons' that would excuse his dire performance.  Anything but admitting that he flopped.. 



#1634 Requiem84

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 11:38

If Stoffel is really thát good, he’ll be a star in FE and might redeem himself in F1 in the future.

If he doesn’t do well in FE, the conspiracy theorists should reconsider their beliefs about Stoffel’s qualities.

#1635 sennafan24

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 11:57

These graphs indicate well, how such statistics without context are often misleading.

 

I mean Button couldn't outqualify Barrichello, Perez and Magnussen in team-mate battles, and now we are supposed to believe based on that he was one of the better qualifiers? Nah.

 

I think it's more likely Alonso declined in one-lap trim late in his career (nobody would ever admit it though), that's why his gaps over Button and Vandoorne were smaller than the gaps over some previous quality drivers.

Button had a narrow window in qualifying. But when he accessed it, he was as good a qualifier as anyone. 

 

Button got along with the 2015 Pirelli tyres. They were the only tyres he had driven in the Pirelli era that had the handling traits that he liked. JB would have been a nuisance for anyone over 1 lap on those tyres. JB was also blisteringly quick in early 2009 when the Brawn was how he liked it. He was 6-1 up over Rubens in qualifying during that period (fuel-corrected) until the car went through a period where it could not generate the necessary tyre temperature - something Button struggled with compared to Rubens. 

 

Andrea Stella claims that Alonso was driving better than ever in his latter F1 years. An exaggeration? Possibly to an extent. But I see no evidence that Alonso lost anything in his final years. Whether that be in qualifying or the races. His drives at Singapore and Baku this year were astonishing. His qualifying lap at Spain last year was one of his best as well. 



#1636 OvDrone

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 00:19

I wish that people could just accept that sometimes drivers fail to perform without concocting conspiracy theories that make Roswell look beleivable.

 

If you'd do your research and some homework, you'd find that Roswell is more than believable. Vandoorne on the other hand... just flatout sucked.



#1637 BRG

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 17:59

If you'd do your research and some homework, you'd find that Roswell is more than believable.

Indeed it is, it is incredible.



#1638 xmanf1

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 19:48

Stoffel didn't beat Jenson that race. Jenson retired with a mechanical issue while running in front of Stoffel.

 

You'd have to maintain a rather crude definition of 'beat' if you want to claim such, and that definitely wouldn't be the fair analysis of Stoffel you're hoping for.

 

I was comparing qualifying performance of the Bahrain GP, not the race. Stoffel did beat Jenson with a small margin in his first ever GP in a car that he had to learn by studying the manual while being on a flight from Japan. It doesn't tell anything about Jenson (which I believe was a great F1 driver) but it does show that Stoffel is not as slow as many believe he is based on his 2018 results.



#1639 Clatter

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 20:05

I was comparing qualifying performance of the Bahrain GP, not the race. Stoffel did beat Jenson with a small margin in his first ever GP in a car that he had to learn by studying the manual while being on a flight from Japan. It doesn't tell anything about Jenson (which I believe was a great F1 driver) but it does show that Stoffel is not as slow as many believe he is based on his 2018 results.

 


You don't judge a driver on one race. He has had 2 seasons to show he deserves to keep his place and has failed to do so.

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#1640 AustinF1

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 20:17

If you'd do your research and some homework, you'd find that Roswell is more than believable. Vandoorne on the other hand... just flatout sucked.

 

Indeed it is, it is incredible.

 

Yep. I can confirm with 100% certainty that Roswell, New Mexico exists.



#1641 Lights

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 20:54

Stoffel also beat Jenson Button in his first ever Formula 1 race

 

 

I was comparing qualifying performance of the Bahrain GP, not the race. Stoffel did beat Jenson with a small margin in his first ever GP in a car that he had to learn by studying the manual while being on a flight from Japan. It doesn't tell anything about Jenson (which I believe was a great F1 driver) but it does show that Stoffel is not as slow as many believe he is based on his 2018 results.

 

Well, you wrote race.

 

And now again, you write Stoffel beat Jenson in his first ever GP. Qualifying is not a race, neither a Grand Prix. It's just qualifying!

 

It's interesting how according to you an entire season doesn't show how fast or slow he is, but 1 qualifying session from 2 years ago in which he beat someone by 0.07% does.



#1642 xmanf1

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 21:03

Stoffel had two seasons to prove himself, that's more than enough for someone who won everything in lower categories...

Many drove against Alonso and did not lose a drive in F1 because of that, why ? Because they were good enough to stay in F1...

Stoffel just wasn't...

 

Professional racers are all good including Stoffel, and those who make into F1 are "supposed" to be exceptional, and in 90% of the time it's the case, but from time to time, you stumble on that 10% failure rate, a driver that can't find the last 0.2 of a second that an exceptional F1 driver should have... and that's what happened to Stoffel

 

You should define 'good enough'. Is it 'good enough' sponsorship deals? Or is it 'good enough' marketing value? ;-)

 

Anyway, I don't buy your argument that Stoffel is part of the 10% 'slow driver club' that basically got lucky to arrive into F1. In general there are three observations that make this improbable: his performance prior to F1, the few glimples of speed he could show in 2016 and 2017 when his McLaren didn't broke down and (as stated in my first post) the serious doubt about the performance of his car and management support in 2018 that basically makes any conclusion about his performance in 2018 doubtful. I would add a fourth argument as well: people such as Toto Wolff and Alonso, who have more data and can evaluate Stoffel's performance better than I or anyone else here, clearly think the same. 



#1643 xmanf1

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 21:12

You don't judge a driver on one race. He has had 2 seasons to show he deserves to keep his place and has failed to do so.

 

Well I think he got half a season sofar. He had his rookie season in a car that was in a continuing state of breaking down, but at least he could show some of his talent toward the end of the season. 



#1644 xmanf1

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 21:18

Well, you wrote race.

 

And now again, you write Stoffel beat Jenson in his first ever GP. Qualifying is not a race, neither a Grand Prix. It's just qualifying!

 

It's interesting how according to you an entire season doesn't show how fast or slow he is, but 1 qualifying session from 2 years ago in which he beat someone by 0.07% does.

 

Sure, it is just qualifying, but it is his qualifying record against Alonso in 2018 that everyone is talking about because the big number that pops out and is apparantly ultimate proof. If there is something with Stoffel's car that makes him drive slower than Fernando then, yes, an entire season may not tell you anything how fast or slow he is.  



#1645 Clatter

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 22:38

Sure, it is just qualifying, but it is his qualifying record against Alonso in 2018 that everyone is talking about because the big number that pops out and is apparantly ultimate proof. If there is something with Stoffel's car that makes him drive slower than Fernando then, yes, an entire season may not tell you anything how fast or slow he is.  

 


The obvious difference is the person behind the steering wheel.