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The Halo is here - reactions and developments 2018 [split topic]


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#101 Rob

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 13:59

They've had plenty of time to think about the impact of the halo on the on-board shots. It's the most obvious way in which the halo was going to impact the coverage. Where's the forward planning? They've had over a year!



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#102 Mart280

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:13

There were many calls for improved cockpit safety in July 2009 when Henry Surtees was killed and Felipe Massa was injured.

For instance, here's Martin Brundle:

"A new step forward is needed with an elegant solution. It's well within their ability for F1 designers to create something but it will take a while to research, develop and implement."
http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8170736.stm

 

"A new step forward is needed with an elegant solution".........That was nine years ago, an elegant solution indeed, is this all a result of how F1 is run ? how they all have to agree on something or it doesent happen ? I dont know but the sport I have loved for 40 years seems to be run by total idiots.

 


Edited by Mart280, 23 March 2018 - 14:13.


#103 dierome87

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:14

Looks horrible.

 

At this juncture, I'd rather have a fully enclosed cockpit...



#104 HP

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:17

Forward planning? That's only stuff for the teams wanting to win. The rest is thereabouts or wanting to maintain the status quo. Haven't some of the changes in recent years not thought us this? I especially think about the change in qualifying, that was abandoned very quickly. Apparently still the same modus operandi in place. So what can we expect?



#105 Camber1972

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:23

Halo is pretty terrible but there will come a day when it will save a life.

 

 

 

We don't know that. Maybe there will come a day that it will cost a live?


Edited by Camber1972, 23 March 2018 - 14:23.


#106 JoeDede

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:24

 
If you haven't noticed by now, pointing it out would seem a bit cruel.
 
But it may or may not have something to do with that enormous contraption bolted unto the cars around the cockpit area.
 
 
Indeed, and he's still right. The exposed helmets are one of the last remaining points on the car where drivers are at very high risk.
 
That doesn't mean an incident is likely, but that an incident that does take place has the potential to be very serious indeed.

 

Isn't that exactly what it means?

 

Would you say flying in a passenger airplaine is high risk? I wouldn't. I would say it is low risk to fly.

 

However, if you crash the consequences are severe.

 

If you do high risk investments, there is a high probability that you will loose your money, right?


Edited by JoeDede, 23 March 2018 - 14:26.


#107 THEWALL

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:25

The Halo is so pathetic that there are actually two flip flop companies with their logos on it. What else can be said?? But we have all seen F1 (FIA, Liberty, or whatever stakeholders I don't care) is in denial, not only about the Halo issue, but about aero, DRS, tyres, rules, penalties, infinite etc. It goes deep, it's in the DNA of the bureaucrats that, sadly, run this thing. Let's hope Liberty, with Brawn in front, can do something about it. Until then, get ready for more years of domination, flip flop, thong, penis and nose surgery jokes...



#108 Jon83

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:26

I know. María de Villota died, Jules Bianchi died, Justin Wilson died, but Martin Brundle must have changed his mind. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Doesn't mean he is wrong. He's entitled to an opinion. Current drivers have said similar.
 



#109 Mosrite

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:27

They brought it for safety at the expense of the 'show' and 'entertainment'

It's crazy to broadcast a picture to the viewers where you cannot see the steering wheel, the road ahead, and which way the driver is turning. That was enjoyable for me because it taught me which lines to take in driving, F1 is not gonna teach people about driving like that, which means viewer numbers will drop and then Liberty might do something, they might as well race behind closed doors.

But it seems Liberty doesn't mind fake stuff in F1, so they might as well broadcast a fake image with the halo removed


Edited by Mosrite, 23 March 2018 - 15:37.


#110 GTA

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:27

Really appreciate teams like Ferrari and Force India who have tried to mask the halo with coloring schemes. It makes looking at the car less painful . 

 

The onboards are a trainwreck. Heads should roll for the hideous onboards. Unsurprisingly they didn't make it to the F1 youtube summary, 



#111 BuddyHolly

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:31

I thought it would look terrible, I still believe it could be a hazard rather than a benefit but even though I thought it would be bad, I can't believe how ghastly the onboards look.  I'm quite happy I cancelled my skyf1 sub now.  What a joke my beloved F1 has turned into.  :mad: :down:


Edited by BuddyHolly, 23 March 2018 - 14:32.


#112 Dalton007

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:34

AWFUL.

 

Get rid of halo. Now.  :mad:

 

This stupidity has to stop. It looks so wrong.

 

Accidents will happen, it is motorsport and it is dangerous. Drivers, team, viewers have to accept some risk. If you can't, then don't watch or take part.



#113 Nonesuch

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 14:53

Isn't that exactly what it means?


I don't think so. You could have high risks and frequent incidents, in which case the sport or general activity is seen as very dangerous.

I think it's good that the FIA is looking at improving cockpit safety. But at the same time, I don't agree with their policy to implement the first thing that passes their engineering tests.

After all, we're not talking about workplace-safety on an offshore oil platform. This is an entertainment product first and foremost. The Halo is not fit for purpose.



#114 Neno

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:02

Onboard cameras looks great for crap what is in front of them. Dont blame onboard cameras. Blame you know who. 



#115 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:04

Obama?

#116 Neno

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:06

Obama?

Head of FIA. But you know what happens when you cut one head. Two grows back in the same place. 



#117 screamingV16

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:07

Halo looks vile and helps ruin F1 for me. What with this and halfbrain ideas like action lap music :rotfl: , I'm kind of glad I'll be put out of misery by the end of FTA F1 at the end of the season. Still at least there wont be the multitudes of driver deaths we currently have every race weekend :drunk: .



#118 Nonesuch

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:08

F1 is not gonna teach people about driving like that, which means viewer numbers will drop

 

That's a positive note, at least. :p

 

The roads might well be better with fewer people learning to drive from watching F1 onboards.



#119 Slowersofterdumber

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:09

They clearly need to rethink the shoulder cam. Completely pointless now, I didn't like it before as it only gives proper driving info on left handers, but now not even that. Always prefered T-cam.

T-cam is fine, you can see the driver input and the rod ahead, you can see what the driver does and where the car goes, obstructed suspension arms are a non-issue.

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#120 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:18

Only one word for this really: Laughable. The whole world knew this halo would be rubbish, except some old dusty people at the FIA with an obsession for safety. Oh and a retired F1 driver who is still president of the GPDA, more than ten years after his retirement.

#121 JoeDede

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:18

I don't think so. You could have high risks and frequent incidents, in which case the sport or general activity is seen as very dangerous.
 

It's not high risk if it isn't likely to happen  :)

 

So if the consequenses are high and probability very very low, it's not high risk.

 

Anyway, no need to dwelve over this  :)  :)



#122 Nonesuch

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:22

It's not high risk if it isn't likely to happen  :)

 

Ah, right.  :up:  I was thinking more along the lines of any incident that involves the drivers' head being likely to be very serious very quickly.

 

In that sense, objects hitting the helmet are rare but 'high-risk' incidents. Whereas, for example, a car 'merely' sliding off into the barrier or even rolling over can play out in many different ways, most of them not particularly serious.



#123 screamingV16

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:27

Only one word for this really: Laughable. The whole world knew this halo would be rubbish, except some old dusty people at the FIA with an obsession for safety. Oh and a retired F1 driver who is still president of the GPDA, more than ten years after his retirement.

 

Don't you mean an obsession with covering their own arses...



#124 sblick

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:28

Probably been mentioned but camera on side of airbox is useless now.  All you see is 50% Halo and hardly any track.  Liberty just get rid of these!  To me it doesn't look like a high tech solution.  Seems that the best race engineers in the world could come up with something that was better.  It will be constant source of frustration this year and years that follow. 

Does anyone know if they are working on a better solution?  Are better solutions not viable since they have the "rule" of holding several tons on top of the hoop?



#125 JoeDede

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:29

Ah, right.  :up:  I was thinking more along the lines of any incident that involves the drivers' head being likely to be very serious very quickly.

 

In that sense, objects hitting the helmet are rare but 'high-risk' incidents. Whereas, for example, a car 'merely' sliding off into the barrier or even rolling over can play out in many different ways, most of them not particularly serious.

Well, with your definition flying in a pssenger jet is high risk and that's ok.

 

Definition of high-risk
1likely to result in failure, harm, or injury having a lot of risk 
  • high-risk activity
 
  • high-risk investments
2more likely than others to get a particular disease, condition, or injury 
  • high-risk patients
  • patients in the high-risk group


#126 GoldenColt

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:32

Yup. I'm trying hard, really, really hard to get used to the halo. I can't. I simply can't.


Edited by GoldenColt, 23 March 2018 - 15:32.


#127 Nicktendo86

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 15:48

Those camera shots are absolutely atrocious. Who the hell thought they would be ok to broadcast? Like seriously, what moron thought yep, we can show that. I'm actually flabbergasted.

#128 Dalton007

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:09

Those camera shots are absolutely atrocious. Who the hell thought they would be ok to broadcast? Like seriously, what moron thought yep, we can show that. I'm actually flabbergasted.

 

Maybe to show the FIA and the viewers how ridiculous it looks.  :lol:



#129 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:16

Some pictures from the T-cams:


image.jpg

 

 

The halo is a great place for Nascar style logos.

 

Sprint_cup_debut.jpg

 

maxresdefault.jpg



#130 cokata

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:17

03qni7zidjn01.jpg



#131 Muppetmad

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:19

I don't like to be one of those people who finds fault with everything F1 does, but I really don't like the halo. The onboard shots are awful, even with the T-cam, and they're often some of the best bits of footage we get during the race. Somebody needs to find a creative solution to these camera problems, and fast.



#132 Mosrite

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:33

it just means that the TV footage will be less valuable, ie not good, no one wants to see it. Once the TV companies start making noise how many viewers they're losing, how it's not worth for them to pay for the broadcasting rights, then F1 will start to listen. 



#133 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:43

I don't like to be one of those people who finds fault with everything F1 does, but I really don't like the halo. The onboard shots are awful, even with the T-cam, and they're often some of the best bits of footage we get during the race. Somebody needs to find a creative solution to these camera problems, and fast.

 

That's the only negative I have about the Halo really. I understand its safety benefits, I think most of the negative reaction to it is over-emotive and fails to look at the big picture, but really someone at the FIA or FOM (especially FOM) should've done some research into alternative camera mountings and angles. I get that the camera mounting points are written into the regulations to prevent teams exploiting their placement, but really this needed to be addressed regardless of the regulatory restrictions.

 

The T-Cam I can just about live with. You still see the drivers inputs, you still see where the car is going etc, but the over-the-shoulder camera that I quite liked before is now utterly useless. I think there are possible solutions that have been tried elsewhere, such as Indycar using helmet cams at St Pete. Cameras could even be placed in the headrest to give something at drivers eye level. But it appears either nobody in FOM/FIA has even bothered to consider this, or they are in the process of doing so but haven't bothered to communicate that fact.



#134 FSA

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:44

It's horrible. Imagine all the subscribers signing up for F1TV to get these fancy new on-board feeds with that monstrosity filling the frame. I'd feel cheated. It has got to go or be significantly modified sooner or later. 

 

I was also thinking. Alonso's accident in 2015. Would he have been able to extricate himself from the car wreckage if the halo had been there. Could the halo have been dislodged and actually caused Alonso an injury. I'm not at all convinced of the safety argument in favor of this device. And I'm more than a little concerned the halo could contribute to an accident injury as much as it could help prevent one. 



#135 Ivanhoe

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:45

You’d think it should be an easy fix

Edited by Ivanhoe, 23 March 2018 - 16:45.


#136 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:46

It's horrible. Imagine all the subscribers signing up for F1TV to get these fancy new on-board feeds with that monstrosity filling the frame. I'd feel cheated. It has got to go or be significantly modified sooner or later. 

 

I was also thinking. Alonso's accident in 2015. Would he have been able to extricate himself from the car wreckage if the halo had been there. Could the halo have been dislodged and actually caused Alonso an injury. I'm not at all convinced of the safety argument in favor of this device. And I'm more than a little concerned the halo could contribute to an accident injury as much as it could help prevent one

 

That has been factored into the research. I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but there might be explosive bolts in the mountings that could aid in extrication in those kind of incidents.



#137 Ivanhoe

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:49

Alonso's accident in 2015. Would he have been able to extricate himself from the car wreckage if the halo had been there. Could the halo have been dislodged and actually caused Alonso an injury. I'm not at all convinced of the safety argument in favor of this device. And I'm more than a little concerned the halo could contribute to an accident injury as much as it could help prevent one.


Alonso's accident in the 2016 Australian GP is cited as one where a driver could have been trapped by the halo.

Mekies points out that marshals are trained to right any upside down car but says the FIA still tested the halo in upside-down scenarios.

It conducted a simple test with a dummy chassis, with its own safety expert Andy Mellor strapped in.

When the chassis was tipped upside down, the halo kept the front of the chassis higher off the ground than it would normally be and Mellor had no trouble getting himself out. Drivers have been shown a video of that test.

"It is actually preserving a better space for drivers," says Mekies, "because the car is resting on the front part of the halo, offering more space than they currently have compared to the ground.

"It's basically raising up the car compared to where it would be without it."



#138 goingthedistance

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:49

I don't like to be one of those people who finds fault with everything F1 does, but I really don't like the halo. The onboard shots are awful, even with the T-cam, and they're often some of the best bits of footage we get during the race. Somebody needs to find a creative solution to these camera problems, and fast.

 

Agreed. I'm a tolerant fan. I'm not going anywhere because of new theme music, a new logo, three minutes of silence during the broadcast etc. I understand why the halo is there, even if I think it's an inferior solution.

 

But the ruination of the onboard cameras is a really big deal, they are a massive part of my love for the sport. It needs to be fixed ASAP. I'm surprised changes weren't made in advance of the season, they knew what was coming. 



#139 CoolBreeze

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:55

AT least Jean Todt is inspiring MotoGp to follow suit...

 

decom_DFMoh77_Xs_AAHJWS_5a226796f113f.jp



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#140 JoeDede

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 16:56

AT least Jean Todt is inspiring MotoGp to follow suit...

 

decom_DFMoh77_Xs_AAHJWS_5a226796f113f.jp

:rotfl:



#141 FSA

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 17:00

 

Alonso's accident in 2015. Would he have been able to extricate himself from the car wreckage if the halo had been there. Could the halo have been dislodged and actually caused Alonso an injury. I'm not at all convinced of the safety argument in favor of this device. And I'm more than a little concerned the halo could contribute to an accident injury as much as it could help prevent one.


Alonso's accident in the 2016 Australian GP is cited as one where a driver could have been trapped by the halo.

Mekies points out that marshals are trained to right any upside down car but says the FIA still tested the halo in upside-down scenarios.

It conducted a simple test with a dummy chassis, with its own safety expert Andy Mellor strapped in.

When the chassis was tipped upside down, the halo kept the front of the chassis higher off the ground than it would normally be and Mellor had no trouble getting himself out. Drivers have been shown a video of that test.

"It is actually preserving a better space for drivers," says Mekies, "because the car is resting on the front part of the halo, offering more space than they currently have compared to the ground.

"It's basically raising up the car compared to where it would be without it."

 

That's all well and good (and thanks for posting the quotations which I hadn't seen before) but the thing that stands out about FA's accident is the total destruction of the car. How can they predict what would happen in that scenario. Accidents in F1 are not always sterile and predictable and I would imagine the part a halo played would be far less certain. I have a suspicion that the halo would have broken off and quite likely struck FA on the helmet. What then? It's supposed to withstand the impact of a bus. So which is stronger, the halo or the driver's helmet? 


Edited by FSA, 23 March 2018 - 17:01.


#142 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 17:06

That's all well and good (and thanks for posting the quotations which I hadn't seen before) but the thing that stands out about FA's accident is the total destruction of the car. How can they predict what would happen in that scenario. Accidents in F1 are not always sterile and predictable and I would imagine the part a halo played would be far less certain. I have a suspicion that the halo would have broken off and quite likely struck FA on the helmet. What then? It's supposed to withstand the impact of a bus. So which is stronger, the halo or the driver's helmet? 

 

Because in that accident everything that happened to the car was as designed in event of such an impact. The Halo is no different to any other safety feature of these cars.


Edited by DanardiF1, 23 March 2018 - 17:06.


#143 davidlan

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 18:06

That has been factored into the research. I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but there might be explosive bolts in the mountings that could aid in extrication in those kind of incidents.

 

 

Yeah I can see that working, 

"Just hold on Alonso, we are going to fire off those 1/4 sticks of dynamite attached to your Halo to get you out"

"No don't worry about the flames, we have thoroughly tested for all situation!!!!!!"



#144 Mat13

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 18:23

Canopy please. Oh, and some thought about what you want to achieve, how you want to achieve it, some proper planning, and for Gods sake, tell the camera teams.

#145 smr

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 18:24

So here are my thoughts on the Halo - when it was first announced that it would be mandatory for 2018 I was really disappointed. I remember one of the key points as to why I got into F1 and for me that was the aesthetics - Formula 1 cars just look so cool. 

 

It's not only the cars which look cool but the fact that there's a human element involved in taming several hundreds of horsepower - that's also damn cool. I love how exciting the cars look as they dance around on the limit of grip and adhesion with the bravery of the men sitting in the car adding to that showmanship. 

 

The Halo has taken that very big aspect of coolness away imho. Although I don't disagree with the fact that it *may* save a driver's life there is no getting away from the fact that F1 cars now look less cooler, than they did, the drivers don't look as daring or brave anymore either. They look like they're being wrapped up in cotton wool too much, which subtracts from the glamour, speed, excitement and thrill of it all. 

 

Anyway, after feeling like this for quite a while I started, surprisingly, getting used to the halo... until today.

 

The T-Cam and Cockpit cams which are and should be a huge part of the entertainment for us viewers at home now look beyond ridiculous! When I was watching FP1 today I just couldn't help but glare at the halo - I can't actually focus on the track as this stupid massive bow thing is filling up the entire bloody TV screen.

 

We need a different solution fast - one which is way better aesthetically because this is just hideous. During battles there's a large part of the track where we won't actually be able to see the car in front either. I'm really disappointed by it.



#146 dweller23

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 18:45

A lot of people keep mentioning Wilson crash as an example where Halo would make a difference. I am sure it would, but keep in mind it's impossible to use Halo on ovals (and Wilson's fatal accident happened at Pocono).

 

How about Grosjean's crash at Spa 2012. Does anyone see that instead of going over the top of Alonso's car, if Alonso's car had halo, Grosjean's car would get lodged in space between halo and headrest? That would likely be a fatal accident. Same thing with Wurz/Coulthard 11 years ago. These crashes happen every few years, much more often than Bianchi or de Villota type of accident.

 

Henry Surtees would probably be saved by halo, but the wheel still can hit the driver in head if its trajectory happens to match the "driver enter/exit gap" in halo. Same with Massa at Hungaroring. The real solution to prevent Surtees' type of accidents is improving tethers and improving wheelnuts.

 

All in all, in my opinion halo significantly decreases safety of common problems (exiting car without touching it because of electric shock, escaping from car on fire, smaller debris getting lodged into the cockpit), costs a lot of money (not only the device, but all that had to be changed with it, like  screens that are put on top of the car or start lights positioning) and makes sport hard to watch, especially from onboard perspective.



#147 DanardiF1

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 18:49

Yeah I can see that working, 

"Just hold on Alonso, we are going to fire off those 1/4 sticks of dynamite attached to your Halo to get you out"

"No don't worry about the flames, we have thoroughly tested for all situation!!!!!!"

 

Explosive bolts are used in cars with 'gullwing' doors such as the Mercedes SLS to detach the door from the car in the case of it ending up upside down and therefore unable to open properly.

 

https://en.wikipedia...echnic_fastener



#148 rockdude101

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 18:53

 I think most of the negative reaction to it is over-emotive and fails to look at the big picture

 

Isn't racing supposed to be emotive? Isn't that part of the excitement, seeing a car launch into 130R and not lift? 

 

As for the big picture, what do you believe it is? The balance of risk and glory which challenges both driver and car? You can't remove competition and risk else there would be no point in trying in the first place.



#149 screamingV16

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 19:01

A lot of people keep mentioning Wilson crash as an example where Halo would make a difference. I am sure it would, but keep in mind it's impossible to use Halo on ovals (and Wilson's fatal accident happened at Pocono).

 

How about Grosjean's crash at Spa 2012. Does anyone see that instead of going over the top of Alonso's car, if Alonso's car had halo, Grosjean's car would get lodged in space between halo and headrest? That would likely be a fatal accident. Same thing with Wurz/Coulthard 11 years ago. These crashes happen every few years, much more often than Bianchi or de Villota type of accident.

 

Do we know if the halo is strong enough to have stopped Grosjean's car instantly? Isn't there a chance that the velocity and impact of Grosjean's car would have ripped the halo off Alonso's car (and possibly broken some of the tub).



#150 w1Y

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 19:03

I wonder whether the technology available out there can ultimately get rid of the halo on on-board view.