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The Halo is here - reactions and developments 2018 [split topic]


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#1651 ANF

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 22:37

Below is a list of the cases that Laurent Mekies, then FIA Safety Director, presented at a press brieifing in July 2017. The FIA ran simulations of old accidents to understand how the halo would have changed the outcome. By changing the parameters, each case got several scenarios.

Now, what does "positive on balance" mean?
Mekies: "We call it 'positive on balance' on these cases, because the number of scenarios in which the halo would have helped is overwhelming compared to the number of scenarios where it would have been neutral or negative."

CAR-TO-CAR CONTACT
positive on balance: 2007 F1 Melbourne, Wurz & Coulthard
positive on balance: 2010 F1 Monte Carlo, Chandhok & Trulli
positive on balance: 2012 F1 Abu Dhabi, Karthikeyan & Rosberg
positive on balance: 2012 F1 Spa-Francorchamps, Alonso & Grosjean
positive on balance: 2015 F1 Spielberg, Räikkönen & Alonso
positive on balance: 2007 GP2 Magny-Cours, Glock & Zuber
positive on balance: 2016 F3 Macau, Sasiki & Ye
neutral: 2010 F1 Abu Dhabi, Schumacher & Liuzzi

CAR-TO-ENVIRONMENT CONTACT
positive: 2001 F1 Spa-Francorchamps, Burti
positive: 2008 F1 Barcelona, Kovalainen
positive: 2012 F1 test Duxford, de Villota
positive: 2015 F1 Sochi, Sainz
positive: 2017 F1 Monaco, Wehrlein
positive: 1995 F3000 Magny-Cours, Campos
positive on balance: 2007 GP2 Magny-Cours, Viso
positive on balance: 2016 F3 Spielberg, Li
neutral: 2014 F1 Japan, Bianchi (FIA's comment: impact beyond capabilities of the Halo)

EXTERNAL OBJECTS
positive: 2009 F2 Brands Hatch, Surtees
positive: 2015 Indycar Pocono, Wilson
positive on balance: 2009 F1 Hungaroring, Massa
positive on balance: 2013 F1 Nürburgring, Chilton

The FIA video: https://youtu.be/AYkGjUHstKY

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#1652 Ruusperi

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 09:14

So how many series are still open-cockpit per se? Various F4 series, BOSS GP, Radical Sportscars, various vintage series...what about Indy Lights?



#1653 Kalmake

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 10:00

Price might have to come down for lower rungs to adopt it.



#1654 Beri

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 23:20

Below is a list of the cases that Laurent Mekies, then FIA Safety Director, presented at a press brieifing in July 2017. The FIA ran simulations of old accidents to understand how the halo would have changed the outcome. By changing the parameters, each case got several scenarios.

Now, what does "positive on balance" mean?
Mekies: "We call it 'positive on balance' on these cases, because the number of scenarios in which the halo would have helped is overwhelming compared to the number of scenarios where it would have been neutral or negative."

CAR-TO-CAR CONTACT
positive on balance: 2007 F1 Melbourne, Wurz & Coulthard
positive on balance: 2010 F1 Monte Carlo, Chandhok & Trulli
positive on balance: 2012 F1 Abu Dhabi, Karthikeyan & Rosberg
positive on balance: 2012 F1 Spa-Francorchamps, Alonso & Grosjean
positive on balance: 2015 F1 Spielberg, Räikkönen & Alonso
positive on balance: 2007 GP2 Magny-Cours, Glock & Zuber
positive on balance: 2016 F3 Macau, Sasiki & Ye
neutral: 2010 F1 Abu Dhabi, Schumacher & Liuzzi

CAR-TO-ENVIRONMENT CONTACT
positive: 2001 F1 Spa-Francorchamps, Burti
positive: 2008 F1 Barcelona, Kovalainen
positive: 2012 F1 test Duxford, de Villota
positive: 2015 F1 Sochi, Sainz
positive: 2017 F1 Monaco, Wehrlein
positive: 1995 F3000 Magny-Cours, Campos
positive on balance: 2007 GP2 Magny-Cours, Viso
positive on balance: 2016 F3 Spielberg, Li
neutral: 2014 F1 Japan, Bianchi (FIA's comment: impact beyond capabilities of the Halo)

EXTERNAL OBJECTS
positive: 2009 F2 Brands Hatch, Surtees
positive: 2015 Indycar Pocono, Wilson
positive on balance: 2009 F1 Hungaroring, Massa
positive on balance: 2013 F1 Nürburgring, Chilton

The FIA video: https://youtu.be/AYkGjUHstKY


The entire discussion is done for by simply looking at this list. How hideous if a device it may be, the Halo is justified by these simulations alone. To me.

Edited by Beri, 22 October 2019 - 23:21.


#1655 F1 Mike

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 23:30

My opinion on the aesthetics is the same as always - I still hate the look of it and it really truly has spoiled the look of the cars... But it will save lives so there isn't much left to debate on that side.

The main debate now should be whether or not the look of it can be improved?

#1656 TecnoRacing

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 08:37

My opinion on the aesthetics is the same as always - I still hate the look of it and it really truly has spoiled the look of the cars... But it will save lives so there isn't much left to debate on that side.

The main debate now should be whether or not the look of it can be improved?

 

A small aesthetic improvement would be the banning of any 'construction' on the top of Halo (i.e the single or multiple winglets.) The Halo for sure looks less bulky when they are not fitted...

 

s4reutersmedianet.jpg

 

mercedes-monza-19.jpg
 



#1657 SenorSjon

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 10:46

So is it on go karts yet?

#1658 phrank

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 10:54

So is it on go karts yet?

Its not even on British F3



#1659 Fatgadget

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 11:00

So is it on go karts yet?

Perhaps you want to start by arguing why seat belts are not a must on go karts!



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#1660 phrank

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 11:20

Perhaps you want to start by arguing why seat belts are not a must on go karts!

Yes, why is that? Natural selection?



#1661 JRodrigues

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 11:33

Perhaps you want to start by arguing why seat belts are not a must on go karts!

 

There are new kart seats with roll-hoop integration. They (FIA) are still trying to figure if it will be mandatory

 

arco-seguranca-karting.jpg


Edited by JRodrigues, 23 October 2019 - 12:56.


#1662 Clatter

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 11:35

Yes, why is that? Natural selection?

It's considered safer to be thrown clear rather than strapped in.

#1663 Marklar

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 09:33

So apparently that endplate weight 1.8 kg (includes a bit titanium, not only carbon). Hamilton was going 310 kph. Mercedes thinks that had Hamilton not reacted quickly (no mention of the halo though) it would have knocked him unconcious.

https://www.auto-mot...erger-mercedes/

#1664 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:17

So apparently that endplate weight 1.8 kg (includes a bit titanium, not only carbon). Hamilton was going 310 kph. Mercedes thinks that had Hamilton not reacted quickly (no mention of the halo though) it would have knocked him unconcious.

https://www.auto-mot...erger-mercedes/


If my German is good enough, then I understand that the actual weight of the endplate is not given but estimated, based on if ballasted or not.

Anyway, 1.8 kg. with a velocity of at least 200 km/h, that's a lot of energy within the thing if it hits something.

And then we have people crying out against the halo because of the officialdom not preventing first that car parts come loos and might hit another car or even driver.
I think it is even more necessary by now to mandate within the rules that parts that are at risk to come loose due to contact are forbidden to be ballasted one way or another. This in order to prevent objects coming loose that are more heavy than necessary.
So no ballast in end plates, front wings, fins, flaps etc.

#1665 Kalmake

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:35

Calling BS on getting saved by reaction. As Hamilton saw bits coming off the left hand side of the Ferrari, he swerved right. Wake blew the debris across and he lost right side mirror. The bit would have missed him completely if he didn't swerve.

 

There is no way to react from that close anyway. Only play that doesn't rely on luck is to drop back.



#1666 phrank

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:40

And then we have people crying out against the halo because of the officialdom not preventing first that car parts come loos and might hit another car or even driver.

People said that?



#1667 SenorSjon

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:40

It's considered safer to be thrown clear rather than strapped in.


Where have we heard that one before...

#1668 Clatter

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:44

Where have we heard that one before...

Unless they start putting a crash structure on the carts I suspect it probably is best not to be strapped in.

#1669 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:51

Where have we heard that one before...

I think I heard that when standing under a sign that smoking opened the arteries.

But in seriousness, karts are too short and narrow to over a worthwhile crumple zone.

Bikers who crash in traffic are called organ donors. In racing, they tumbling with free space seems to keep them alive more often than not. A karter in a bike suit, then?



#1670 goldenboy

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:53

Where have we heard that one before...

What.. karts are very different to single seater racecars.

#1671 goldenboy

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:55

Calling BS on getting saved by reaction. As Hamilton saw bits coming off the left hand side of the Ferrari, he swerved right. Wake blew the debris across and he lost right side mirror. The bit would have missed him completely if he didn't swerve.

There is no way to react from that close anyway. Only play that doesn't rely on luck is to drop back.

I think you're focussing on the wrong thing though. Bottom line is that he would have been knocked out if it hit him. That's pretty scary.

Not that I think it's an argument for or against halo though.

#1672 phrank

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 10:57

Bottom line is that the halo did do nothing again for driver safety



#1673 PayasYouRace

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 11:10

Bottom line is that the halo did do nothing again for driver safety


How do you even come to that conclusion, when it visibly deflected large debris away from a driver?

#1674 phrank

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 11:38

It hit the mirror?



#1675 JeePee

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 11:42

Where have we heard that one before...

MotoGP?



#1676 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 11:44

People said that?


I admit I failed to post names and approval of people who cried out hell about the Halo critisize FIA for not preventing Ferrari to let leclerc continue.
But I don't bother to dig through this thread and forum for such approval. I'm sure however that among us there are people who condemned FIA for that failure and critisize the Halo.

BTW, what is needed for you to admit that the halo has saved a driver from worse? Or since you are so outspoken against it, do you hhave a better alternative in mind for added protection of driver's heads and faces?
I don't like the halo either. But I don't wanna think about what could have happend had this endplate hit Hamilton in the face of his helmet. Imagine what would have happened had he had something similar as Felipe in 2009. Imagine the headlines and outcries....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 October 2019 - 11:45.


#1677 phrank

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 12:07

 I'm sure however that among us there are people who condemned FIA for that failure and critisize the Halo.

I do both but I don't see them related.

 

 

BTW, what is needed for you to admit that the halo has saved a driver from worse? Or since you are so outspoken against it, do you hhave a better alternative in mind for added protection of driver's heads and faces?

Somebody has actually to be saved by the halo? It still has not done what it has intended for, it has only been hit few times and mostly just because its there... Like mentioned several times, there is no case for the introduction of a halo or halo like device

 

 

I don't like the halo either. But I don't wanna think about what could have happend had this endplate hit Hamilton in the face of his helmet. Imagine what would have happened had he had something similar as Felipe in 2009. Imagine the headlines and outcries....

Helmets have improved massively since the Massa accident, thankfully. And still: motorsport is dangerous and always will be



#1678 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 12:20

So apparently that endplate weight 1.8 kg (includes a bit titanium, not only carbon). Hamilton was going 310 kph. Mercedes thinks that had Hamilton not reacted quickly (no mention of the halo though) it would have knocked him unconcious.

https://www.auto-mot...erger-mercedes/

I take back what I said before. I didn't realise that they weighed so much, or contained titanium. That certainly could be nasty if it hit a helmet in the wrong place.



#1679 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 13:08

I do both but I don't see them related.
Somebody has actually to be saved by the halo? It still has not done what it has intended for, it has only been hit few times and mostly just because its there... Like mentioned several times, there is no case for the introduction of a halo or halo like device
Helmets have improved massively since the Massa accident, thankfully. And still: motorsport is dangerous and always will be



..........

(speechless)

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#1680 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 13:18

I take back what I said before. I didn't realise that they weighed so much, or contained titanium. That certainly could be nasty if it hit a helmet in the wrong place.



The titanium is not the worst thing, that is lightweigth material tough of course a large volume titanium increases the weight.
But ballast is often lead or tungsten (I've heard of rumors about the use of depleted uranium???) and that is very heavy. Even a small particle has a lot of weight and that is what might give it the same effect as a famous military weapon: the bullet.

Obsessive weight reduction and distribution?
Use lightweight titanium screws etc. to enable adjustments of the front wing flaps to have as less weight high up in the wing as possible and the weight saved because of the use of titatium added to the lead ballast in the lowest wing element or at the bottom of the wing end plate
Sounds rediculous but i would not be at all surprised if things like this happen. If you look at what is done with aero for everi kg of gain in downforce, then why not for getting the CoG as low as possible.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 October 2019 - 13:20.


#1681 Kalmake

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 13:20

I think you're focussing on the wrong thing though. Bottom line is that he would have been knocked out if it hit him. That's pretty scary.

Not that I think it's an argument for or against halo though.

What do you mean focus? Should I have repeated the parts of the article I agree with? How boring.

 

Peeling off the BS makes the bottom line more apparent.



#1682 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 13:40

The titanium is not the worst thing, that is lightweigth material tough of course a large volume titanium increases the weight.
But ballast is often lead or tungsten (I've heard of rumors about the use of depleted uranium???) and that is very heavy. Even a small particle has a lot of weight and that is what might give it the same effect as a famous military weapon: the bullet.

Obsessive weight reduction and distribution?
Use lightweight titanium screws etc. to enable adjustments of the front wing flaps to have as less weight high up in the wing as possible and the weight saved because of the use of titatium added to the lead ballast in the lowest wing element or at the bottom of the wing end plate
Sounds rediculous but i would not be at all surprised if things like this happen. If you look at what is done with aero for everi kg of gain in downforce, then why not for getting the CoG as low as possible.

I don't know the rules for front wing construction, but it would probably be sensible to stop teams putting such ballast in them. It's hardly needed and front wings get knocked off all of the time. Bits that regularly get knocked away they should make as light as possible, or construct them so that they don't get knocked off so easily. 



#1683 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 14:18

I don't know the rules for front wing construction, but it would probably be sensible to stop teams putting such ballast in them. It's hardly needed and front wings get knocked off all of the time. Bits that regularly get knocked away they should make as light as possible, or construct them so that they don't get knocked off so easily.


What makes it sensible is; There is that rule of the cars being required having a certain weight distribution over front and rear axle. Apart from earo advantages, that rule is another reason why we have those current frightliner long cars of today. But in order to get that distribution more forewards, if your car is underweight and needs to be ballasted to get to the minimum weight, then it helps quite a bit to put as much weight in the front rear wing as much as possible. it is the most efficient manner to shift the balance forwards with the least amount of weight needed. 1 kg of ballast in the front wing shifts the bias more to the front that that same kg would do when in the entry of the sidepod.

#1684 Tsarwash

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 14:50

What makes it sensible is; There is that rule of the cars being required having a certain weight distribution over front and rear axle. Apart from earo advantages, that rule is another reason why we have those current frightliner long cars of today. But in order to get that distribution more forewards, if your car is underweight and needs to be ballasted to get to the minimum weight, then it helps quite a bit to put as much weight in the front rear wing as much as possible. it is the most efficient manner to shift the balance forwards with the least amount of weight needed. 1 kg of ballast in the front wing shifts the bias more to the front that that same kg would do when in the entry of the sidepod.

As I said, I'm not that familiar with the intricacy's of the car design, but for safety's sake, I'm sure that they could stop the teams putting ballast in the front wings if they wanted to. 



#1685 PlatenGlass

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 14:51

I don't know the rules for front wing construction, but it would probably be sensible to stop teams putting such ballast in them. It's hardly needed and front wings get knocked off all of the time. Bits that regularly get knocked away they should make as light as possible, or construct them so that they don't get knocked off so easily.

Yes, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to come up with rules that can legislate against these frail, easily detached heavy weapons.

#1686 Beri

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 15:45

Helmets have improved massively since the Massa accident, thankfully. And still: motorsport is dangerous and always will be

Agreed. I've read somewhere, not implying if it's true or not, that the current helmets can actually withstand a bullet due to the loads of Kevlar used in the layers of the outer shell.

Edit: it's even better than that. It seems the helmets are ballistic tested:
https://www.motorspo...vealed/3167936/

Edited by Beri, 24 October 2019 - 15:48.


#1687 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 16:56

As I said, I'm not that familiar with the intricacy's of the car design, but for safety's sake, I'm sure that they could stop the teams putting ballast in the front wings if they wanted to. 

 

 

No problem, and besides that in post 1664 I already mentioned something like what you suggested as well already. I am in full agreement with you on this



#1688 Sterzo

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 19:44

Agreed. I've read somewhere, not implying if it's true or not, that the current helmets can actually withstand a bullet due to the loads of Kevlar used in the layers of the outer shell.

Edit: it's even better than that. It seems the helmets are ballistic tested:
https://www.motorspo...vealed/3167936/

Even if that is true, it simply relates to penetration, surely? The fact is, it's possible to die inside an intact helmet because of the impact of brain against skull. It's obviously a good thing to make helments literally bullet proof, but in the context of this thread, it's not a substitute for preventing impact by having an intervening structure.

 

(I realise you're not suggesting that, Beri, but the Halo Deniers will latch onto any spurious argument).



#1689 Beri

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 20:40

I understand. And I'm no medical examiner nor a physician, but in case of Massa in Hungary I could imagine that the current helmets would have prevented his injuries that he sustained.

#1690 TF110

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 02:44

I don't think the halo is a good solution at all. It's basically a 3 point roll hoop with the look of a thong. Imo, it was a rush-job and the easiest thing to put on the cars without huge changes. Ideally there would be nothing there and let it be a pure open cockpit, but if they want head protection, do it the right way and all the way with a jet-fighter canopy. They don't want to it seems. They're content with a curved metal T on the cars, even the proposed new regs have a halo. No aero screen, no canopy, but a halo. The thread says development, nothing of the sort has happened wit the halo. It's still as ungainly as ever and has not changed at all and probably won't for the foreseeable future. That, imo, is sad and not what F1 said about head protection. There's no way the halo is the best solution, nor is it the only solution. But the laziness and content attitude they have towards it makes it apparent that it was never very well thought out and just put on the cars as reactionary. They want to cover their asses and be seen as doing something so as not to get in legal trouble. 



#1691 ATM

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 03:11

All the before statement is true. However since the Halo did stop debris from time to time, I think it does its job, as ghastly as it looks, so it should stay. Sooner or later we’ll get used to it.

Edited by ATM, 25 October 2019 - 03:12.


#1692 Pimpwerx

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 05:59

The halo might not be the best solution, but it's a step in the right direction. And I'm one of those admitted fools who was against it for aesthetic reasons. I like seeing the drivers in the car, but that has not been diminished as much as I thought it would have been, so I've nothing but praise for the adoption of the device. I'm sure Lewis is happy it's on there now too, given how it's proven its value not just in Suzuka. IIRC, he was originally against having it added to the regs.



#1693 PlatenGlass

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 07:56

I don't think the halo is a good solution at all. It's basically a 3 point roll hoop with the look of a thong. Imo, it was a rush-job and the easiest thing to put on the cars without huge changes. Ideally there would be nothing there and let it be a pure open cockpit, but if they want head protection, do it the right way and all the way with a jet-fighter canopy. They don't want to it seems. They're content with a curved metal T on the cars, even the proposed new regs have a halo. No aero screen, no canopy, but a halo. The thread says development, nothing of the sort has happened wit the halo. It's still as ungainly as ever and has not changed at all and probably won't for the foreseeable future. That, imo, is sad and not what F1 said about head protection. There's no way the halo is the best solution, nor is it the only solution. But the laziness and content attitude they have towards it makes it apparent that it was never very well thought out and just put on the cars as reactionary. They want to cover their asses and be seen as doing something so as not to get in legal trouble.

I too would rather have a canopy but I wonder if this "open cockpit" obsession extends beyond any aesthetic concerns.

#1694 pacificquay

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 08:50

 it makes it apparent that it was never very well thought out and just put on the cars as reactionary. 

 

This is completely untrue and an insult to those involved in the years of research that went into it



#1695 ArchieTech

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 09:26

How does that saying go? "Don't let perfection be the enemy of good" or something like that.



#1696 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 09:30

Unless they start putting a crash structure on the carts I suspect it probably is best not to be strapped in.

 

There is more crash structure on a cart than the human body.  ;)

 

I think I heard that when standing under a sign that smoking opened the arteries.

But in seriousness, karts are too short and narrow to over a worthwhile crumple zone.

Bikers who crash in traffic are called organ donors. In racing, they tumbling with free space seems to keep them alive more often than not. A karter in a bike suit, then?

 

F1 used to have the same reasoning. 

 

What.. karts are very different to single seater racecars.

 

A kart is a singleseat racecar without much bodywork. I wonder how long it would get if we use F1 logic on it.  ;)

 

This is completely untrue and an insult to those involved in the years of research that went into it

 

its looks only got worse over time. The first version had a more aero look. 

 

First version

mercedes-halo-concept-central-drivers-pi

 

Williams having a go

_96856012_shield_f1.png

 

Red Bull's take on it

572479fdc8758f64d3d54fb2d99c7fbd252c2d3b

 

Ferrari pushing their agenda to get rid of that concept after a 1 lap test with a hastily constructed window.

sebastian-vettel-ferrari-2017-british-gp

 

 

And now we still have the same thing as tested in 2017.


Edited by SenorSjon, 25 October 2019 - 09:47.


#1697 Clatter

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 10:38

There is more crash structure on a cart than the human body.  ;)


F1 used to have the same reasoning.


A kart is a singleseat racecar without much bodywork. I wonder how long it would get if we use F1 logic on it.  ;)


It has more metal than a human, whether that frame is genuine crash structure, I'm not so sure. There is no roll hoop though, so if flipped I think I'd rather be able to fall away than strapped in under the kart.

#1698 Tsarwash

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 15:48

snip/ Ideally there would be nothing there and let it be a pure open cockpit, /snip/

If we want to attain ideal, pure open cockpit racing, then why do we even let the drivers wear crash helmets ? 

 

The drivers are the ones who should get to decide, not the spectators. You do not get to decide how much risk I take in my life. 



#1699 Clatter

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 16:40

If we want to attain ideal, pure open cockpit racing, then why do we even let the drivers wear crash helmets ? 

 

The drivers are the ones who should get to decide, not the spectators. You do not get to decide how much risk I take in my life. 

 


The drivers don't get to make that decision either.

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#1700 OO7

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 16:41

So apparently that endplate weight 1.8 kg (includes a bit titanium, not only carbon). Hamilton was going 310 kph. Mercedes thinks that had Hamilton not reacted quickly (no mention of the halo though) it would have knocked him unconcious.

https://www.auto-mot...erger-mercedes/

1.8 kg! :eek:   If that's accurate it explains why these cars are so heavy.