353 replies to this topic

[Disgrace]

I find this a potentially interesting battle. Ericsson has established himself as no mug and has sent two more highly-rated team-mates in Nasr and Wehrlein packing. But Leclerc should be a different prospect. Looks like they're driving a dog of a car though. After his experience at Caterham, perhaps Ericsson should have an early advantage?

[sopa]

Ericsson is a modern day Pedro Diniz. Capable of solid performances on F1 level, but is never amazing. But if Leclerc wants to be the next big thing, he really needs to give Ericsson a pasting and beat him thoroughly in a way Nasr/Wehrlein didn't manage. If he can't do it, people will question whether he really is *that* good.

[Camber1972]

I find this a potentially interesting battle. Ericsson has established himself as no mug and has sent two more highly-rated team-mates in Nasr and Wehrlein packing. But Leclerc should be a different prospect. Looks like they're driving a dog of a car though. After his experience at Caterham, perhaps Ericsson should have an early advantage?

 

Let's see I am not convinced about Leclerc. He was fast in F2 but why didn't Haas offer him a seat after he did a number of free practices for them in 2016? Where they also not convinced?

[Disgrace]

Let's see I am not convinced about Leclerc. He was fast in F2 but why didn't Haas offer him a seat after he did a number of free practices for them in 2016? Where they also not convinced?

 

Both Haas drivers were under contract I seem to recall. I think it became clear early on that Sauber was where Ferrari were going to place their protegees. It's a decent enough proving ground. The objective as sopa says is to beat Ericsson in a way that Nasr and Wehrlein failed to do.

[thegamer23]

Let's see I am not convinced about Leclerc. He was fast in F2 but why didn't Haas offer him a seat after he did a number of free practices for them in 2016? Where they also not convinced?

 

Kind of agree.

He dominated the championship yes, but with arguably the best team & with Fuoco as team mate. And in GP3 he struggled a bit against Albon.

At least, Giovinazzi had Gasly as rival in the same team, they both dominated.

I expect this battle to be closer than most expect. Ericsson may not be a star, but he's become more solid. 

Interesting one! 

Edited by thegamer23, 23 March 2018 - 17:18.

[Nathan]

Let's see I am not convinced about Leclerc. He was fast in F2 but why didn't Haas offer him a seat after he did a number of free practices for them in 2016? Where they also not convinced?

 

They want to collect points and maximise development of the car?

[Maxioos]

i'm dissapointed how far they are behind the last midfield teams. I was hoping with the Ferrari input we wouldn't have a clear backmarker anymore, I don't see Sauber fighting anybody this year. It makes it difficult to shine for both drivers.

[noikeee]

Ericsson has established himself as no mug and has sent two more highly-rated team-mates in Nasr and Wehrlein packing.

A strange way of putting this. Ericsson definitely gave them a much bigger challenge than expected, and beat them a few times, but he was only kept by the size of his wallet and/or bigger connections to the team's ownership. I reckon both Wehrlein and Nasr seemed overall a little more talented.

 

I agree he's a bit of a tricky team-mate for Leclerc to get though, you generally don't want a team-mate that has a bad reputation yet actually drives alright! Couple that with the slowest car on F1, and it might just be one of the worst possible combination of factors for a F1 debut season that you could want.

[DS27]

I think Leclerc will comfortably outpace Marcus once he has had a few races, especially on circuits he has actually raced at before. I think he is a very good talent.

 

The fact that the Sauber is a dog might play in his favour as his only bench mark is Marcus; there is no expectation for him to do anything else like score points or even get out of Q1, so a relatively low pressure situation.

Edited by DS27, 23 March 2018 - 18:26.

[Disgrace]

A strange way of putting this. Ericsson definitely gave them a much bigger challenge than expected, and beat them a few times, but he was only kept by the size of his wallet and/or bigger connections to the team's ownership. I reckon both Wehrlein and Nasr seemed overall a little more talented.

 

Ericsson is a pay driver, everybody knows it, but it's the least interesting aspect of the discussion. It may have been a surprise that he matched Nasr but not Wehrlein. Recall that Ericsson had to carry an additional 10kg around. It's hard to say on that basis when they were matched so closely - virtually identical in qualifying - that Pascal was the more talented driver. I think the right driver was retained, and is the perfect benchmark for Leclerc.

[TFLB]

I quite like Ericsson. Seems a nice guy and has had some fantastic drives that often go overlooked, because Sauber. I think Leclerc will beat him in the second half of the season, but not a demolition like most seem to be expecting. After that it's up to Ferrari to judge Leclerc. Personally I hope he impresses them and gets the drive next year; it will be nice to have another young driver to slightly reduce and share the Verstappen hype.

[screamingV16]

Is it possible that, whilst he's not the next great thing, Ericsson is actually a reasonable F1 driver?

[goingthedistance]

I like both of these guys. Ericsson is better than a lot of people give him credit for, without being anything stellar.

 

I agree with Noikeee that this is not the ideal scenario for a rookie to walk into. Ericsson's well established in the team and isn't as bad as his reputation says. But I'm very high on Charles, there were some stunning drives last year in GP2. Yes Prema are close to being the Mercedes of GP2 in terms of team supremacy but Charles still looked more like the total package than say Pierre Gasly did the previous year. 

 

A shame that the car won't flatter either of them. 

[SPBHM]

Ericsson might be underrated, given he did OK against his previous teammates; but I also now always look at Sauber with suspicion after what their previous team boss said when leaving;

[JoeDede]

No matter what, let's give him half a season and see what happens. Often new drivers are evaluated before they even get started. When Hamilton started in F1, he had the driven lots and lots of laps in their car. These days drivers don't because of regulations and that's a significant difference.

[ArrowsLivery]

Anybody else get annoyed when Sky pronounce LeClerc’s name as “Charlotte Clair”?

[Sterzo]

Is it possible that, whilst he's not the next great thing, Ericsson is actually a reasonable F1 driver?

Long gone are the days of drivers making F1 who just shouldn't be there. The quality all the way through the field is stunningly good. The problem is rather that there are many more who are just as good as those at the tail end of the grid, and there's no room for them.

Edited by Sterzo, 23 March 2018 - 22:47.

[HP]

i'm dissapointed how far they are behind the last midfield teams. I was hoping with the Ferrari input we wouldn't have a clear backmarker anymore, I don't see Sauber fighting anybody this year. It makes it difficult to shine for both drivers.

A talented driver always makes a difference, Alonso in the Minardi and Vettel in the Toro Rosso are good examples.

[Seanspeed]

Is it possible that, whilst he's not the next great thing, Ericsson is actually a reasonable F1 driver?

Ericsson was always a 'reasonable' driver. He's only 'bad' by the very high quality and quantity of good-to-great F1 drivers around. He was a regular front runner in GP2.

Leclerc has undoubtely been very underwhelming so far, though. The difference between GP2/F2 and F1 grew quite a bit with the 2017-era cars, which may have something to do with it.

But it's still very, *very* early days. Haven't even gotten to the first qualifying yet.

Also, it may not feel like it, but Ericsson is a bit of a veteran by now. It's actually his FIFTH season in F1!
 

Kind of agree.

He dominated the championship yes, but with arguably the best team & with Fuoco as team mate. And in GP3 he struggled a bit against Albon.

Fuoco was considered a promising talent going into 2017.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 March 2018 - 00:08.

[NickeF1]

1-0 Ericsson.

[Disgrace]

Yep, but I don't think he'll be happy to be less than a tenth ahead of Leclerc who hadn't until Friday ever driven the circuit. Charles should be pleased with his performance.

[PistolPete]

Yep, but I don't think he'll be happy to be less than a tenth ahead of Leclerc who hadn't until Friday ever driven the circuit. Charles should be pleased with his performance.

 

Depending on what Leclercs ambitions is... Is Leclerc going to be the 3rd driver in a row that does not manage to shine against Ericsson. Only thing we can conclude is that this was not the occasion were he showed that potential. 

[Disgrace]

Depending on what Leclercs ambitions is... Is Leclerc going to be the 3rd driver in a row that does not manage to shine against Ericsson. Only thing we can conclude is that this was not the occasion were he showed that potential. 

 

If there is little to no gap to claw back from the very first race, he may well have shown some of that potential already.

[sopa]

Last year there were rumours Ericsson got preferential treatment in the team. Wonder if there was any substance to it? Or perhaps in Leclerc's case Alfa Romeo money has outweighed any Ericsson's "personal ownership" of the team?

[Muppetmad]

A good start from Leclerc - less than a tenth behind his experienced team mate. If he can bring it home in one piece tomorrow somewhere around Ericsson, I think that'd be a decent first weekend.

[Ghostrider]

The fact that Ericsson has good financial backing shouldn't cloud the fact that the guy has serious talent. No, he is of course not on Alonso, Hamilton level but he has held his own very good against teammates like Nasr and Wehrlein, who both were highly rated before coming into F1.

 

Would be nice to see the Sauber be a little highter on the grid, at least Qualifying did look better than practise sessions.

Edited by Ghostrider, 24 March 2018 - 17:54.

[thegamer23]

Mmm, let's see in race, but not exactly impressive from Leclerc, considering all the hype.

[William Hunt]

Let's see I am not convinced about Leclerc. 

 

What else should he have done to convince you, win every race he drover in? 
Best rookie in Formula 3 after fighting for the title for a long period

2nd in Macao F3 GP on his debut there
GP3 title winner as a rookie
F2 title winner as he rookie

Edited by William Hunt, 24 March 2018 - 11:11.

[sopa]

If you combine two factors - Ericsson not that bad of a driver + these new fast cars being very hard on rookies (highly-rated Vandoorne was nowhere in early 2017), you can kind of understand if Leclerc doesn't have an immediate edge on Ericsson. Fair enough. Though he certainly should have a clear edge after mid-season. After all, this is a guy, who people think could take a Ferrari seat in 2019? No way he is going to get that seat if he struggles against Ericsson.

 

But it's early days, obviously.

[Jthorn97]

According to many of the F1 fans around the web, "the biggest talent F1 has ever seen" in Leclerc should completely slaughter the "worst driver on the grid and the disgrace of the sport" Ericsson. Being behind in every session this weekend really does not live up to those expectations regardless of difference in experience. 

I really like Leclerc but I think people underestimate how high the standards are in F1. Ericsson was really unimpressive when he came into F1 but has since the 2nd half of 2015 probably had the biggest growth of any driver in the grid. Wehrlein and Nasr couldn't really beat him on track and only scored the points due to very special conditions on the track. The Sauber has been incapable of scoring points on pace since the start of the 2016th season. I think Sauber has a really good line up in experience + talent in Ericsson/Leclerc and I think it could be really even between them at the end of the season. 

 

[Myrvold]

I really like Leclerc but I think people underestimate how high the standards are in F1. Ericsson was really unimpressive when he came into F1 but has since the 2nd half of 2015 probably had the biggest growth of any driver in the grid. 

Since the second half of 2015. This aligns perfectly with the first time Ericssons backers bailed out Sauber and saved them the first time, before buying the team less than a year later.

Coincidence? 

[TFLB]

Since the second half of 2015. This aligns perfectly with the first time Ericssons backers bailed out Sauber and saved them the first time, before buying the team less than a year later.

Coincidence? 

Yes, coincidence. Got it in one.

[PilgrimsDrop]

Since the second half of 2015. This aligns perfectly with the first time Ericssons backers bailed out Sauber and saved them the first time, before buying the team less than a year later.

Coincidence? 

 

Again with the broken record... getting really really old

[proviz]

And not going away. Because the circumstances prevail. If they change, Ericsson's out of F1, as simple as that.

[MustangSally]

They want to collect points and maximise development of the car?

 

Correct. Gene Haas is on record as saying there was no way a team in their circumstances could entertain the idea of a rookie.

 

 

Last year there were rumours Ericsson got preferential treatment in the team. Wonder if there was any substance to it? Or perhaps in Leclerc's case Alfa Romeo money has outweighed any Ericsson's "personal ownership" of the team?

 

Rumour or no, there is considerable Ferrari patronage behind LeClerc. From the Academy days, when he was clearly rated higher than Stroll. But Ferrari has a big interest in Sauber now, both in terms of marketing and extending its power base within the sport. I don't think they will be the eternal backmarker this season and this should be a good battle.

 

 

i'm disappointed how far they are behind the last midfield teams.

 

Rookie LeClerc outqualifies rookie Sirotkin. Early days.

[JG]

Haters will hate.. If Leclerc were faster, Ericsson would be Worst driver ever, if he were faster that LeClerc, it would be because he has More experience. Basically he can’t do anything right.

[f1paul]

[f1paul]

​Fantastic story and I really hope that Leclerc can do well and make his dad even prouder (of course he's very proud now to see his son in F1)

[Myrvold]

Yes, coincidence. Got it in one.

 

Well, I don't believe in coincidences.

 

Again with the broken record... getting really really old

 

Well, his backers own the team, that is a fact. Then it is down to each individual how you see it.

[SouthF1]

As I suspected yesterday when looking at the track map. Gasly went of on the last try in Q1 just ahead of Ericsson which meant that Marcus lost a few tenths and didn't even do a PB in sector 2.

It would most certainly have been a go in Q2 otherwise.

[MustangSally]

That must be encouraging for Sauber. 

 

Good job by LeClerc - outqualifies one Williams and outraces the other.

[SouthF1]

Sauber will for sure be happy about this weekend. After friday it looked really bad, as if they were a full second behind the nearest team ahead.

 

In qualy both drivers could easily have ended up in Q2 and in the race both Saubers looked better than Williams and Toro Rosso.

[Jthorn97]

Well, I don't believe in coincidences.

All serious experts and people involved in F1 said that was complete bs. If a driver got preferential treatments there would be clear evidence on that with all the numbers everyone get access to. 

[Myrvold]

All serious experts and people involved in F1 said that was complete bs. If a driver got preferential treatments there would be clear evidence on that with all the numbers everyone get access to. 

Yet it happened to be happening at the exact same time, and later have Kaltenborn talk about she "wanting equal treatment between drivers" as one of the points of disagreement with the owners.

 

I still don't get, and probably never will understand why the Swedes decided to back Ericsson, and keep backing him in F1 with better more talented Swedes out there. But it is what it is. I'd rather have Ericsson in a car, and thus have 2 Saubers on the track, than no Ericsson and no Sauber.

[Cig35]

Yet it happened to be happening at the exact same time, and later have Kaltenborn talk about she "wanting equal treatment between drivers" as one of the points of disagreement with the owners.

 

......

 

Myrvold, could you please give a link where Kaltenborn has actually said that?

I've read some articles stating that "there is speculation that the disagremeent with the owners is because Kaltenborn wanted equal treatment of the drivers", but I have not seen any source where Kaltenborn is actually quoted.

Personally I think the real disagremeent was regarding the Honda deal, which according to Beat Zehnder was never actually signed, and one of Vasseur's first tasks was to find an engine supplier for 2018 which suggests that Honda was not really wanted. If that was by the owners or by Vasseur is anybody's guess.

 

Regarding Ericsson vs Leclerc I think both did well this weekend, but even more the Sauber team deserves praise for working around the clock from Friday to Saturday trying to find the reasons for the big gap to the rest of the field on Friday and from the results it seems they found a big part of it.

[Myrvold]

Myrvold, could you please give a link where Kaltenborn has actually said that?

I've read some articles stating that "there is speculation that the disagremeent with the owners is because Kaltenborn wanted equal treatment of the drivers", but I have not seen any source where Kaltenborn is actually quoted.

Personally I think the real disagremeent was regarding the Honda deal, which according to Beat Zehnder was never actually signed, and one of Vasseur's first tasks was to find an engine supplier for 2018 which suggests that Honda was not really wanted. If that was by the owners or by Vasseur is anybody's guess.

 

Regarding Ericsson vs Leclerc I think both did well this weekend, but even more the Sauber team deserves praise for working around the clock from Friday to Saturday trying to find the reasons for the big gap to the rest of the field on Friday and from the results it seems they found a big part of it.

Those are the only ones I can find as well - maybe it was unclear speak from the Norwegian commentator then.. That is was said to be - and not "she said". In Norwegian the difference is rather small.
I have no doubt that Honda was just adding up. But the talk about treating drivers differently must've come from somewhere. Maybe Kaltenborn, her supporters. Wehrlein, his management. 

Like I said, it's down to each individual to decide what's what in the team. For me it's no doubt at all as people are getting tired of reading.

 

Indeed, Sauber looked much better in the race than I expected.

[Henrik B]

Wehrlein, his management. 

 

I really can't back this up but Wehrlein never struck me as a team player. He was looking out for himself first and foremost. Any driver should, but those kind of rumours were in his best interest.

[jcbc3]

But then Wehrlein is infinitely better than Ericsson (and I'd say a good few more currently on the grid).

[derstatic]

But then Wehrlein is infinitely better than Ericsson (and I'd say a good few more currently on the grid).

 

That's exaggerating things quite alot imo. They were the closest pair of teammates in qualifying with Wehrlein slightly ahead over the season. If we factor the well known weight disadvantages for Ericsson it can be argued he was actually marginally quicker. Races paint a similar story. Wehrlein has the stronger results by a small margin. His advantage is exaggerated by luck with pit timing in Barcelona and being ordered past Ericsson in Baku. Ericsson had the most rotten luck with pit timing and then unreliability in Mexico which could have been a very decent result for him. To me this suggest their performances were fairly equal over the course of the season driving wise. In deciding who stays and who goes I think the following factors played a part.

1. Financial backing

2. Ericsson being a better team player/more loyal to the team.

3. Wehrlein expected to dominate but failed to do so.

 

Back to topic. I think this season will be very interesting at Sauber and there is much on the line for every one. Leclerc is hailed as the next big thing and will be expected to come out stronger over the season. As a rookie he can be given a little leeway over the first half dozen or so races but will need to show pace against Ericsson. For Ericsson holding up against Leclerc or even coming out a head will do his reputation lots of good and could potentially make way for him further up the grid and ridding him of the "pay driver" label.

[jcbc3]

I disagree with some of your post, but as you said, this is not the time and place. I apologize for the OT.

 

As for the present pairing, I expect Leclerc to come handily out on top, but/and agree that Ericssons reputation would take an upturn if he is not beaten too badly or even coming out ahead.