58 replies to this topic

[RA2]

The track has been difficult to overtake, any reason why it has not been modified in the last 23 years?

 

The back straight is they only place that has some overtaking opportunity along with turn 3. Cold this be any better if the turn 13 was moved further down the road to after the cricket ground?

[PlayboyRacer]

How to fix it?

A return to Adelaide.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 25 March 2018 - 08:51.

[Jazza]

As we see with most other racing series around the world, it is not the tracks that are the problem.

1. Other cars have no problem racing on F1 tracks.
2. Easier to change cars than tracks.
3. F1 cars are the problem in the first place so change them.

Edited by Jazza, 25 March 2018 - 08:53.

[onemoresolo]

The opening suggestion would be very logical. A longer straight and a hard braking zone, something the track really lacks. I can't see see any reason why that wouldn't be possible as there seems to be plenty of space for a run off area.

[WOT]

As we see with most other racing series around the world, it is not the tracks that are the problem.

1. Other cars have no problem racing on F1 tracks.
2. Easier to change cars than tracks.
3. F1 cars are the problem in the first place so change them.

 

 

^ This

 

Enough said.

[ArrowsLivery]

The track is fine, the cars are the culprit. The last thing the calendar needs is more tracks bastardized by Tilke. 

[PlayboyRacer]

As we see with most other racing series around the world, it is not the tracks that are the problem.

1. Other cars have no problem racing on F1 tracks.
2. Easier to change cars than tracks.
3. F1 cars are the problem in the first place so change them.

See here is the thing... we've all known this for decades.

As easy as it sounds, it ain't changing. It's actually only getting worse, Melbourne has always been difficult to overtake on but its now become impossible unless your 2 seconds faster.

Thats nothing but aero evolution. F1 will not change what needs to be changed. So maybe we do need to look at tracks a bit closer.

Assuming they actually care about this issue. Which I highly doubt.

[August]

The cars should adopt to the tracks instead of tracks adopting to the cars.

 

Dirty air is the problem here. Just how many cars were close enough coming into the backstrech DRS zone to pass even with OP's track change? Not many.

 

Just reduce the turbulent wake from the cars. And make them more difficult to drive (simplified aero would do that) so that the better car can carry more speed from the turns into the straights to pass.

[Lights]

Melbourne is a great track, I'd hate to see it ruined. The cars need to change and stop relying on DRS zones.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

You can overtake at Albert Park circuit. Here is Fernando Alonso's guidance:

 

[F1matt]

The fastest car in qualifying starts at the front, the brakes are so efficient it is almost impossible to make a move, a driver can’t run close enough to the guy in front to force an error to compensate for the braking issue because they have so much downforce and aero, the tyres are to consistent now to throw a curveball, as mentioned above it’s not the track. Look how many overtakes happened in GP2 and GP3 in Abu Dhabi compared to the F1. Maybe we should have another look at Bernie’s sprinklers......

[Risil]

Track's fine. Look at the cars.

 

Above all, look at what Indycar has done. There wasn't much passing at St Pete between 2015-2017 when they ran high-downforce, low-ground-effect aero kits either.

[wingnuts]

You can overtake at Albert Park circuit. Here is Fernando Alonso's guidance:

 

 

I wonder if the fact you had to go back 5 years to find a decent overtake just further illustrates the problem.

[JoeDede]

Well, if you want fly by overtakes with DRS I guess it could be an idea, however we need cars that are built to race and these over sensitive primadonna cars 

[RA2]

Let us be realistic here..........

 

 

Getting teams to change the design philosophy of the car? not going to happen, they had many opportunities to do so (2009, 2014, 2017) but never did it.

 

Getting Albert Park to change the layout is lot easier if it is feasible from spectator pov, safety etc.

[Risil]

Let us be realistic here..........
 
 
Getting teams to change the design philosophy of the car? not going to happen, they had many opportunities to do so (2009, 2014, 2017) but never did it.
 
Getting Albert Park to change the layout is lot easier if it is feasible from spectator pov, safety etc.

 

That would be the easy option (for F1) but not the correct one.

[wj_gibson]

There was quite a lot of overtaking in the early years at Albert Park. Turns 1, 3 and 15 were valid overtaking spots at one time, especially compared some other circuits on the calendar like the post-Senna Imola and the Hungaroring.

It’s only in the last couple of years that Albert Park has seen processional racing. That should give clear hints as to where the issue lies - the sport’s decision to return to ultra high downforce aero rules.

There’s another issue here, which is that DRS just doesn’t work on these cars.

Edited by wj_gibson, 25 March 2018 - 11:56.

[Gary Davies]

I’m not from Melbourne but my reading of the place is that you’d have a giant political bunfight on your hands if you tried to get significant road realignments at Albert Park. Victoria is left wing and Green (read: Commie) hotbed and the mere mention of the Victorian taxpayer putting their hand in their pocket for these profligate F1 millionnaires would bring on choruses of “The people’s flag is deepest red...” etc.
But at the end of the day the cars are the problem and as ever the ugly elephant in the room is aero. Reduce that, massively, and so many problems evaporate. Just for starters, make the cars more difficult to extract full performance from and you’d immediately have a state of affairs in which the driver plays a much bigger part in overall lap time.
I was at Albert Park today and the cars are very impressively fast, no question. But why does F1 need to be the fastest? There are many racing categories around the world which are slower than F1 yet attract spectators in their droves.
I’m not talking about dumbing down F1 cars so they’re like speedway cars. Just a deal harder to master via aero that doesn’t glue them to track.

[f1paul]

The Aussie Supercars had no problem racing closely this weekend at Albert Park.   

[Atreiu]

It's the turbulence between the cars, not the circuit. The uselessness of three DRS zones is irrefutable proof. These cars cannot follow and overtake each other.

[RA2]

The Aussie Supercars had no problem racing closely this weekend at Albert Park. 

 

 

You are comparing F1 to a tin top series? 

[f1paul]

You are comparing F1 to a tin top series? 

No, I;m just saying that it's the cars that are the problem, not the track(s). 

[RA2]

I’m not from Melbourne but my reading of the place is that you’d have a giant political bunfight on your hands if you tried to get significant road realignments at Albert Park. Victoria is left wing and Green (read: Commie) hotbed and the mere mention of the Victorian taxpayer putting their hand in their pocket for these profligate F1 millionnaires would bring on choruses of “The people’s flag is deepest red...” etc.
But at the end of the day the cars are the problem and as ever the ugly elephant in the room is aero. Reduce that, massively, and so many problems evaporate. Just for starters, make the cars more difficult to extract full performance from and you’d immediately have a state of affairs in which the driver plays a much bigger part in overall lap time.
I was at Albert Park today and the cars are very impressively fast, no question. But why does F1 need to be the fastest? There are many racing categories around the world which are slower than F1 yet attract spectators in their droves.
I’m not talking about dumbing down F1 cars so they’re like speedway cars. Just a deal harder to master via aero that doesn’t glue them to track.

 

 

No new road is being laid, the same road (as in street ) being used.

 

 

We all clamored for faster F1 cars (closer to 2004 speeds), while a lot wanted a revision in the floor of the car, the teams did not agree to it, They wanted to use their existing technology. 

[GTA]

There was a good amount of overtaking even in the years before DRS. It's just that the cars can't follow each other and unless there is a massive speed difference you can't make that up. 

 

In 2016 Lewis couldn't overtake Verstappen's STR and things have progressively gone worse with more aero. 

 

In today's F1 you need a long straight of at least 800 metres to think about overtaking. If that isn't the case then there has to be a slow entry corner leading to a slow exit corner and you can overtake .

 

In the below table you have the longest straight lengths , Yas Marina and Barcelona are the outliers where there is little overtaking despite longish straights .Austria and Sepang have good overtaking spots despite shortish straights due to the nature of the corners.

Track	Straight Length (m)
Shanghai	        1200
Baku City Circuit	1200
Yas Marina	        1200
Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez	1200
Monza	1120
Sakhir	1100
COTA	1100
Catalunya	1050
Sepang	900
Hungaroring	800
Spa-Francorchamps	770
Albert Park	750
Silverstone	750
Suzuka	750
Sochi	700
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve	670
Interlagos	650
Red Bull Ring	650
Marina Bay	520
Hockenheimring	500
Monaco	470

Track                    Straight Length with Kink (m)

Baku City Circuit	        1600
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve	1050
Interlagos	                900

http://f1statblog.co...t-straights-f1/

[SenorSjon]

And still they lapped 5-8 seconds slower than q times, even with empty tanks.

[wingwalker]

Easiest way for a better overtaking spot I can think of is murdering the T1-2 and installing a Monza T1-style chicane there. But I'm all for leaving the circuit as it is, as it's been said the cars are the problem, and having the same track over the years is nice for comparing times from different F1 eras.

[JHSingo]

I'll say this til I'm blue in the face.

 

The problem is not the tracks. Other categories manage there fine, and you know why? Because they're not so reliant on aero!

 

It's utter stupidity to start changing the world's race tracks just because "oh, F1 cars can't pass here". Maybe they should start looking at why. Even a few years ago, there was a lot more overtaking at this track than there has for the past two seasons.

 

What's it going to be next? Change Bahrain, change Shanghai, change Montreal? Make the cars suit the tracks, not the other way around. On the basis of the first IndyCar race of the year, it seems to have worked there...

[RA2]

I'll say this til I'm blue in the face.

 

The problem is not the tracks. Other categories manage there fine, and you know why? Because they're not so reliant on aero!

 

It's utter stupidity to start changing the world's race tracks just because "oh, F1 cars can't pass here". Maybe they should start looking at why. Even a few years ago, there was a lot more overtaking at this track than there has for the past two seasons.

 

What's it going to be next? Change Bahrain, change Shanghai, change Montreal? Make the cars suit the tracks, not the other way around. On the basis of the first IndyCar race of the year, it seems to have worked there...

 

Indy is a bunch of amateurs driving around and tripping over each other

 

Multiple series champions were making karting level mistakes and commentators and fans were saying the cars are the problem.

 

This is F1 not some WWE where cars are designed for a circus show.

 

350 overtakes?And how many cautions did they have in a 250 km race? 10? WTF. Who do you follow with 35 overtakes a min? there is no race story there, it is just a clster fxxx 

 

 I wouldn't want that junk on my TV even if it was free.

[Ev0d3vil]

Simpler aero, like in 2009? 2010?

[Risil]

Indy is a bunch of amateurs driving around and tripping over each other
 
Multiple series champions were making karting level mistakes and commentators and fans were saying the cars are the problem.
 
This is F1 not some WWE where cars are designed for a circus show.
 
350 overtakes?And how many cautions did they have in a 250 km race? 10? WTF. Who do you follow with 35 overtakes a min? there is no race story there, it is just a clster fxxx 
 
 I wouldn't want that junk on my TV even if it was free.

 

And all I can say to that Murray is "bullshit".

[f1paul]

Indy is a bunch of amateurs driving around and tripping over each other

 

Multiple series champions were making karting level mistakes and commentators and fans were saying the cars are the problem.

 

This is F1 not some WWE where cars are designed for a circus show.

 

350 overtakes?And how many cautions did they have in a 250 km race? 10? WTF. Who do you follow with 35 overtakes a min? there is no race story there, it is just a clster fxxx 

 

 I wouldn't want that junk on my TV even if it was free.

So Alonso couldn't beat amateurs on a very easy circuit were you only had to drive around in a circle at 230MPH whilst going wheel to wheel with another car. He must be a beginner then.

 

 

Amateurs pfttt. 

[f1paul]

​Unless you think "amateurs" are people who actually race hard, drive very fast and actually give us a proper show, then fair enough. 

[noriaki]

There was a good amount of overtaking even in the years before DRS. It's just that the cars can't follow each other and unless there is a massive speed difference you can't make that up.

In 2016 Lewis couldn't overtake Verstappen's STR and things have progressively gone worse with more aero.

In today's F1 you need a long straight of at least 800 metres to think about overtaking. If that isn't the case then there has to be a slow entry corner leading to a slow exit corner and you can overtake .

In the below table you have the longest straight lengths , Yas Marina and Barcelona are the outliers where there is little overtaking despite longish straights .Austria and Sepang have good overtaking spots despite shortish straights due to the nature of the corners.

Track	Straight Length (m)
Shanghai	        1200
Baku City Circuit	1200
Yas Marina	        1200
Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez	1200
Monza	1120
Sakhir	1100
COTA	1100
Catalunya	1050
Sepang	900
Hungaroring	800
Spa-Francorchamps	770
Albert Park	750
Silverstone	750
Suzuka	750
Sochi	700
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve	670
Interlagos	650
Red Bull Ring	650
Marina Bay	520
Hockenheimring	500
Monaco	470

Track                    Straight Length with Kink (m)

Baku City Circuit	        1600
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve	1050
Interlagos	                900

http://f1statblog.co...t-straights-f1/

St Pete is a bumpy street track and the longest straight is ~750m or so. 350 overtakes or so with equal cars. Cautions or not (which are related to the race control and not the nature of the cars), they could easily overtake in clear air. At Melbourne Bottas could barely manage any passes with a rocketship and seconds worth an advantage.

Today, lucky circumstances even threw us a situation with the fastest car following a slower car for the lead. In any other series a similar situation would have resulted in an exciting, close battle, with the leader at least having to work to defend even if the track was difficult to pass on. But what happens in F1 with this scenario? Vettel stuck it on the road, so literally nothing - because the dirty air does the defending.

RA2 is a troll who understands **** all about racing as testified by the message above.

[RA2]

​Unless you think "amateurs" are people who actually race hard, drive very fast and actually give us a proper show, then fair enough. 

 

So what you saw on ESPN last week was quality a quality program? 

[Risil]

Well, no, but you can thank the TV producers at ABC for that.

[Peat]

Indy is a bunch of amateurs driving around and tripping over each other

 

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

 

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

 

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

 

 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

[Myrvold]

So what you saw on ESPN last week was quality a quality program?

Make the cars harder to drive. Remove power steering, stop laying down new asphalt when the track gets a bit bumpy.

Do you really think the F1 drivers would drive without mistakes when the driver skill are way more important?

Fix the cars. Dont screw around with tracks. We got enough boring parking lots on the calendar.

[noriaki]

So what you saw on ESPN last week was quality a quality program?

I liked it as much as I liked watching these F1 guys put up a professional show in Baku last year. You know, that one track on the calendar where even F1 cars can have close racing.

[RA2]

There were no 350 overtakes, there were 350 driver errors due to a hopelessly doctored car.

 

Professional drivers (very questionable) who qualify close to each other in the same car in the race cannot keep the other driver behind? What sort of professional driver is he?

 

350? 

[AlexPrime]

I think that the track is nice, similar to Montreal. Fast and hard. Pleasant to watch.
 

[Peat]

No new road is being laid, the same road (as in street ) being used.

 

 

We all clamored for faster F1 cars (closer to 2004 speeds), while a lot wanted a revision in the floor of the car, the teams did not agree to it, They wanted to use their existing technology. 

 

The problem and the cure have been common knowledge for nearly 20 years. F1 does not care about you, so why should you care for it?

If you ever decide that you'd like to be entertained by your choice of entertainment once in a while, then do call in again at the good ship Indycar. The door is always open - that's why they always stuff a car into it.

[statman]

How to fix it?

A return to Adelaide.

 

[GTA]

I'll say this til I'm blue in the face.

 

The problem is not the tracks. Other categories manage there fine, and you know why? Because they're not so reliant on aero!

 

It's utter stupidity to start changing the world's race tracks just because "oh, F1 cars can't pass here". Maybe they should start looking at why. Even a few years ago, there was a lot more overtaking at this track than there has for the past two seasons.

 

What's it going to be next? Change Bahrain, change Shanghai, change Montreal? Make the cars suit the tracks, not the other way around. On the basis of the first IndyCar race of the year, it seems to have worked there...

 

That would be true for most of them but some tracks are begging for an update. 

 

Albert Park can tighten the first corner, making it a chicane like someone said ala Suzuka's chicane after 130 R.

Same with Abu Dhabi.

Sochi needs a redesign.

Silverstone is very difficult to pass on as they have 2 fast corners sandwiching the straight. 

Hungary can tighten the entry into the last corner further reducing speed. 

 

F1 and other series often race on different layouts. They didn't allow the old Peraltada corner in Mexico so I am sure as rules and regulations change ,small changes can be accommodated on tracks to spice up the racing. Good racing will be fantastic for race organizers,Liberty,fans as well as drivers. When cars and regulations change it can take years for overtaking to go back to normal. Tracks can be modified easily, 

[Myrvold]

Albert Park can tighten the first corner, making it a chicane like someone said ala Suzuka's chicane after 130 R.

 

Ye, change a public park (which is beautiful I might add) to accommodate 1 day of F1 race per year.

[rootten]

Drop this track

[noikeee]

It's definitely the cars, not the track. It's never been the most overtaking friendly track on the calendar but it definitely should be more possible to pass than it is.

 

That being said, without knowing the area (that might be a bit of an understatement - I've never set foot on the entire Southern Hemisphere   ), and not knowing whether it is logistically and politically possible, the OP's plan for a circuit modification sounds good. It looks like there's room for very small modifications to that road to allow it to happen with minimal impact. You'd get a longer straight, a longer braking zone, we don't lose any particularly notable corners, it's not a huge change that would make the circuit overly long. I approve it.

 

edit: just because I don't think the OP's idea is rubbish, I don't approve on the slightest on his bonkers comments on the Indy race. 

Edited by noikeee, 25 March 2018 - 15:07.

[Myrvold]

and not knowing whether it is logistically and politically possible, the OP's plan for a circuit modification sounds good. It looks like there's room for very small modifications to that road to allow it to happen with minimal impact. You'd get a longer straight, a longer braking zone, we don't lose any particularly notable corners, it's not a huge change that would make the circuit overly long. I approve it.

With regards to space, yes it is possible. But to spend that amount of money to change an actual piece of road, rip up old asphalt to make it green and nice, lay new etc. etc. for one day with F1 race (yes I know they are driving three days, but the race is just one day, and it's only the race there are issues) is rather stupid.
However, I am not sure how large space they have behind the T1 runoff today. As there is a driving range right behind it.

Also IIRC, further down past T13 the road split up with trees, poles and grass in the middle. So it is just 2 car-widths there. Unless it is meant that Melbourne should remove even more green areas for one single race each year. In addition, what looks like a straight from the OP T13 towards todays second-to-last corner, is not a straight, it will be a right kink, then a left kink right in to todays T14, but on a road that I would guess is 55-60% of the width of the track they use today.

 

But then again. It is a (beautiful) public park which is a great place to hang out, walk around, not to mention use the dedicated cycling lines there to cycle around the park. 

 

Then, from my walk around, you might also come across this

Edited by Myrvold, 25 March 2018 - 16:08.

[noikeee]

With regards to space, yes it is possible. But to spend that amount of money to change an actual piece of road, rip up old asphalt to make it green and nice, lay new etc. etc. for one day with F1 race (yes I know they are driving three days, but the race is just one day, and it's only the race there are issues) is rather stupid.
However, I am not sure how large space they have behind the T1 runoff today. As there is a driving range right behind it.

Also IIRC, further down past T13 the road split up with trees, poles and grass in the middle. So it is just 2 car-widths there. Unless it is meant that Melbourne should remove even more green areas for one single race each year. In addition, what looks like a straight from the OP T13 towards todays second-to-last corner, is not a straight, it will be a right kink, then a left kink right in to todays T14, but on a road that I would guess is 55-60% of the width of the track they use today.

 

How is doing a few minor modifications to the road here and there, a little wider, straighten out slightly a little bit, etc, any different from the chicanes that have been asphalted in the middle of the park for the use of the race only?? I honestly don't see why doing a few more minor modifications of that kind to benefit the race is stupid. I also don't understand why would it need to change the character of the park. We're not talking about cutting off a forest, quite possibly just asphalting a tiny bit of grass to connect that split road and move like, 10 trees. You could plant 10 or 20 or 30 trees in some other point of the park if that's really the environmental concern.

 

But, again, I've never been there and might be imagining the place wrong.

[cpbell]

How to fix it?

A return to Adelaide.

Though I do agree with others that modifying the cars is more logical, as a more mature F1 enthusiast, I recall the old venue with great affection.

Edited by cpbell, 25 March 2018 - 16:48.

[CoolBreeze]

MS on Montoya couple of years ago, V10 era. 

 

As many said, the aero of the cars, and the CF brakes aren't helping overtakings. We need to go back to basics.