2599 replies to this topic

[Lights]

Bottas had a couple of awful races though? The one where he drove into Ricciardo springs to mind. 

 

Well spotted, turns out my list was wrong!  My bad!

[ToniF1]

Lewis Hamilton 218

Max Verstappen 139

Sebastian Vettel 105

Fernando Alonso 103

Daniel Ricciardo 85

Charles Leclerc 71

Kimi Raikkonen 57

Valtteri Bottas 38

Esteban Ocon 27

Nico Hulkenberg 23

 

Lewis Hamilton has dominated Autosport's annual Team Principals' Top 10 drivers of 2018, with Max Verstappen emerging as his closest challenger.

 

https://www.motorspo...top-10/4309150/

Edited by ToniF1, 05 December 2018 - 17:13.

[ernestomodena]

Lewis Hamilton 218

Max Verstappen 139

Sebastian Vettel 105

Fernando Alonso 103

Daniel Ricciardo 85

Charles Leclerc 71

Kimi Raikkonen 57

Valtteri Bottas 38

Esteban Ocon 27

Nico Hulkenberg 23

 

Lewis Hamilton has dominated Autosport's annual Team Principals' Top 10 drivers of 2018, with Max Verstappen emerging as his closest challenger.

 

https://www.motorspo...top-10/4309150/

 

The most suprising thing Bottas gained 2 spots.

[Rinehart]

I stopped reading at Vettel in 3rd place.

[Maxioos]

Lewis Hamilton 218

Max Verstappen 139

Sebastian Vettel 105

Fernando Alonso 103

Daniel Ricciardo 85

Charles Leclerc 71

Kimi Raikkonen 57

Valtteri Bottas 38

Esteban Ocon 27

Nico Hulkenberg 23

 

Lewis Hamilton has dominated Autosport's annual Team Principals' Top 10 drivers of 2018, with Max Verstappen emerging as his closest challenger.

 

https://www.motorspo...top-10/4309150/

 

Thanks for posting. Not surprised by this ranking. Possible expected Alonso some places lower, but it seems clear that i'm the one who is judging Alonso too low if by far most judge him higher and i personal have this ranking high because they have the decision power.

[sopa]

Ocon was voted 5th last year, but expectedly couldn't live up to this huge vote of confidence, even if you can argue he actually performed better this year than last year!

 

But generally nothing too out of ordinary this year, seems sensible enough. The only surprising thing is that Hamilton wasn't voted uninamously as the best with everyone giving him P1. After all, that's where forum members have had a consensus!

Edited by sopa, 05 December 2018 - 19:07.

[Lights]

Ocon was voted 5th last year, but expectedly couldn't live up to this huge vote of confidence, even if you can argue he actually performed better this year than last year!

 

But generally nothing too out of ordinary this year, seems sensible enough. The only surprising thing is that Hamilton wasn't voted uninamously as the best with everyone giving him P1. After all, that's where forum members have had a consensus!

 

True, but only by 1 team principle as apparently Arrivebene did once again not participate.

 

The question is who. Probably Cyril who already hinted during an interview in Abu Dhabi at giving Max the DOTY. Bit of a hate/love fest going on there between those two... 

 

Also interesting is the relatively low amount of points for Max in P2 (139). Assuming he got 25 points from Cyril and 18 points from 2 or 3 others, that still leaves half the team principles (either 4 or 5) who didn't rate Verstappen in the top 3.

[McLaren]

It was probably Tost/Toro Rosso who voted Max as number 1.

Edited by McLaren, 05 December 2018 - 20:52.

[Ivanhoe]

So that’s 3 years in a row Lewis 1 - Max 2

[Fatgadget]

It was probably Tost/Toro Rosso who voted Max as number 1.

Extrapolating that logic..Why not Horner?

[KnucklesAgain]

The guy the team bosses voted #4 left because there is no competitive drive

Makes you appreciate how strong the F1 brand still is, any other sport run this way would already be dead

[KevD]

Extrapolating that logic..Why not Horner?

 

Because Horner was interviewed in Abu Dhabi and already said it had to be Lewis. He'll probably have Max as the runner up though.

[Sterzo]

I often think there's a slight (understandable) bias in the team principals' ratings. They're maybe thinking more about who they'd choose for next year, than about all performances through the past season.

 

Terrific prospect though Leclerc is, did he really perform at a higher level than all 14 drivers behind him throughout 2018?

[Maxioos]

Because Horner was interviewed in Abu Dhabi and already said it had to be Lewis. He'll probably have Max as the runner up though.

 

Wasn't in same clip Renault's TP Abiteboul who had Max on 1?

[teejay]

Seb is too high for me but I am not a team principle.

[P123]

The guy the team bosses voted #4 left because there is no competitive drive
Makes you appreciate how strong the F1 brand still is, any other sport run this way would already be dead

Eh? McLaren are one of the teams who benefit from F1s lopsided financial setup. McLaren were a works team for one of the four engine suppliers, and had an exclusive agreement for it's use. The failure was with McLaren and Honda, not the sport.

[Kao18]

As usual decent top 10 from the team bosses and pretty much the order I had in mind too except maybe for Bottas. But I guess you cant put him too far down if you assume his team mate had a mega season.

 

Also in a way glad to see Leclerc did not make it in the top 5. Overall he had a pretty good year as a rookie for sure but I feel it gets overrated a bit, 6th is perfect imo.

[Blackmamba]

Lewis Hamilton 218
Max Verstappen 139
Sebastian Vettel 105
Fernando Alonso 103
Daniel Ricciardo 85
Charles Leclerc 71
Kimi Raikkonen 57
Valtteri Bottas 38
Esteban Ocon 27
Nico Hulkenberg 23
 
Lewis Hamilton has dominated Autosport's annual Team Principals' Top 10 drivers of 2018, with Max Verstappen emerging as his closest challenger.
 
https://www.motorspo...top-10/4309150/

Should Perez be worried? The Team Principals don’t seam to hold him in high regard. I thought he had a very strong year. Stronger than Ocon at least.

[sopa]

Should Perez be worried? The Team Principals don’t seam to hold him in high regard. I thought he had a very strong year. Stronger than Ocon at least.

 

Last time Perez was in top 10 was in 2016, when he was eight. Last year Perez was out of top 10 as well, while Ocon was 5th.

[CountDooku]

So that’s 3 years in a row Lewis 1 - Max 2

 

Something about their respective talents? 

 

If I had to rate all the drivers on the grid by subjective talent they would be pretty close to the TP list as is (I'd bump Alonso up one or two places).

[A3]

Ocon was voted 5th last year, but expectedly couldn't live up to this huge vote of confidence, even if you can argue he actually performed better this year than last year!

I don't think he did himself any favours in Brazil in the TP's eyes.

[Henri Greuter]

I stopped reading at Vettel in 3rd place.

Well, don't forget that in the early part of the season, (by now mostly forgotten because of what happened thereafter), Vettel & Ferrari had some really good performances and making it look as if Merc&Ham were about to lose this season.
Hell even early this summer many people over here at the forum predicted with confidence that Vettel and Ferrari would be the champions this year.

Max was never in the title hunt but unlike Vettel, his second half of the season was mega compared with the start. The opposite of what Vettel had but he had way more victories than Max....

So that they both are rated in a near similar manner and level, it makes sense for me.

[KnucklesAgain]

Eh? McLaren are one of the teams who benefit from F1s lopsided financial setup. McLaren were a works team for one of the four engine suppliers, and had an exclusive agreement for it's use. The failure was with McLaren and Honda, not the sport.

 

McLaren and Honda was poor, but in the end he left because there was no competitive place to go. And whatever you think of him, here we have a list of team principals who on average place him 4th but the most competitive seat goes to #8. Yes in F1 reality things are more complex, but nevertheless the fact remains that the TPs' #4 guy leaves because he has no option to fight for anything

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 06 December 2018 - 17:44.

[Maxioos]

McLaren and Honda was poor, but in the end he left because there was no competitive place to go. And whatever you think of him, here we have a list of team principals who on average place him 4th but the most competitive seat goes to #8. Yes in F1 reality things are more complex, but nevertheless the fact remains that the TPs' #4 guy leaves because he has no option to fight for anything

 

And all top team principles blame that he's out of a seat on that part, not his talent. You can be that good, but if no one want's to work with YOU, it's You who made yourself out of a seat, not the sport or those teams.

[Lights]

And all top team principles blame that he's out of a seat on that part, not his talent. You can be that good, but if no one want's to work with YOU, it's You who made yourself out of a seat, not the sport or those teams.

I really doubt it's that black and white. Surely there are plenty of better teams than McLaren that would want to work with him, quite sure of Ferrari and maybe even Mercedes, of course if the situation calls for it.

 

Problem is that as long as a team is relatively happy with their line-up, it's not worth it to take the risk to change, and two 'top' drivers is definitely seen as a risk. And in that situation it's easy for them to say they're not interested.

 

So for the past several years:

Mercedes don't need Alonso because they have Hamilton to win the WDC, and they prefer having Bottas alongside Hamilton while I bet even they think Alonso is the better driver of those two.

Ferrari think they don't need Alonso because they believe Vettel can deliver them the WDC. So far that has failed, maybe they did need Alonso but it's not like they'll ever admit that.

Red Bull have Verstappen, plus anyway a Red Bull seat wouldn't have added to his WDC tally anyway.

 

Perhaps there is some truth in Alonso burning bridges, but besides that it's also about timing and being in the right place at the right time. An injury or shock retirement of a top team driver can change a lot, but then you also have to be a free agent when it happens, while all top teams have their own young drivers lined up, etc.

[KnucklesAgain]

And all top team principles blame that he's out of a seat on that part, not his talent. You can be that good, but if no one want's to work with YOU, it's You who made yourself out of a seat, not the sport or those teams.

 

Then they should be consistent and not vote him #4

[scheivlak]

Then they should be consistent and not vote him #4

Or voting him so high is a way to lure other TPs to still have another try with this obviously poisonous guy 

[sopa]

 

Ferrari think they don't need Alonso because they believe Vettel can deliver them the WDC. So far that has failed, maybe they did need Alonso but it's not like they'll ever admit that.

 

You can add that Ferrari has now finally decided to improve their line-up, but age is clearly speaking against Alonso. Leclerc is viewed as a future champion, Alonso is a past champion at this stage. Promoting Leclerc above him is a no-brainer in such situation.

[Maxioos]

Then they should be consistent and not vote him #4

 

How than? lower (whole package) or higher (season on track only consider)

 

I think by all job descriptions a driver is more than only on track performance.

 

If he hadn't the own made image problem/history by chooses and was driving at one of top 3, the chance he would be on 1 i would rate at 80+%. The top 3 now are the top 3 "nr. 1" drivers. #4 seems by more analyse the correct spot all consider. 

[AlexPrime]

team bosses had a great Top 10, I think I would have rated Kimi higher, but apart from that, very good. I am happy that unlike some forum members team bosses apreciated Seb enough to get him a Top 3 despite his mistakes. 3rd is I think good rating, Lewis was very special this year and Max was great as well 

Edited by AlexPrime, 07 December 2018 - 16:18.

[AlexPrime]

Then they should be consistent and not vote him #4

If you think about it, the vote cements the problem of Alo. There are three top teams in F1. Their lead drivers are all ahead of Alonso in the standings. So why should they hire him? Few team bosses would want two #1 drivers in the same team considering bitter experience with Ham/Alo, Prost/Senna, Mansell/Piquet, etc. Same with Ric. Difference is, Ric was willing to go to a non-Top 3 team, as he is young. Alo was not, as he is old.
Hence, you have the situation you have. Fits quite neat actually.

[KnucklesAgain]

If you think about it, the vote cements the problem of Alo. There are three top teams in F1. Their lead drivers are all ahead of Alonso in the standings. So why should they hire him? Few team bosses would want two #1 drivers in the same team considering bitter experience with Ham/Alo, Prost/Senna, Mansell/Piquet, etc. Same with Ric. Difference is, Ric was willing to go to a non-Top 3 team, as he is young. Alo was not, as he is old.
Hence, you have the situation you have. Fits quite neat actually.

 

Yeah if one votes Vettel as #3 and Max #2 who, though he is a great talent, had a huge mess of an early season.

The vote may still cement Alo's problem, but it also cement's F1's

[KnucklesAgain]

How than? lower (whole package) or higher (season on track only consider)

 

I think by all job descriptions a driver is more than only on track performance.

 

If he hadn't the own made image problem/history by chooses and was driving at one of top 3, the chance he would be on 1 i would rate at 80+%. The top 3 now are the top 3 "nr. 1" drivers. #4 seems by more analyse the correct spot all consider. 

 

That may all be correct, but is beside my original point that the guy who the TP's vote as #4 driver leaving for lack of opportunity is not good for F1, however much you dislike Alonso

(And  the fact that there are only 4 competitive seats in the whole sport is part of the problems F1 has, this is not news)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 07 December 2018 - 19:53.

[statman]

Racefans.net (best known for Dieter Rencken pieces) 2018 driver ranking:

 

1: Hamilton

2: Verstappen

3: Leclerc

4: Alonso

5: Ricciardo

6: Vettel

7: Perez

8: Gasly

9: Raikkonen

10: Ocon

11: Bottas

12: Hulkenberg

13: Sainz

14: Magnussen

15: Vandoorne

16: Ericsson

17: Grosjean

18: Stroll

19: Hartley

20: Sirotkin

[ernestomodena]

 

Racefans.net (best known for Dieter Rencken pieces) 2018 driver ranking:

 

1: Hamilton

2: Verstappen

3: Leclerc

4: Alonso

5: Ricciardo

6: Vettel

7: Perez

8: Gasly

9: Raikkonen

10: Ocon

11: Bottas

12: Hulkenberg

13: Sainz

14: Magnussen

15: Vandoorne

16: Ericsson

17: Grosjean

18: Stroll

19: Hartley

20: Sirotkin

 

 

Not bad. I would put Hulkenberg 2 spots up but for the rest it's ok.

[Lights]

It's indeed not bad, I can roughly place all of them, except for Perez and Gasly.

Perez was more often than not outpaced by Ocon, losing both Q and R head to head, no clue how that leads to 7th best.

Gasly wasn't that impressive against Hartley, and when you put Hartley in 19th then it simply doesn't add up to put Gasly 8th.

Both should be out of top 10 IMO.

Edited by Lights, 18 December 2018 - 15:47.

[coppilcus]

Racefans.net (best known for Dieter Rencken pieces) 2018 driver ranking:

1: Hamilton
2: Verstappen
3: Leclerc
4: Alonso
5: Ricciardo
6: Vettel
7: Perez
8: Gasly
9: Raikkonen
10: Ocon
11: Bottas
12: Hulkenberg
13: Sainz
14: Magnussen
15: Vandoorne
16: Ericsson
17: Grosjean
18: Stroll
19: Hartley
20: Sirotkin

A much more closer picture of reality besides two or three outliers: Alonso and Vandoorne, whom should be lower in the ladder, and Raikonnen and Hulkenberg whom should be higher up...

Of course Alonso put the car where it did not deserved to be in quite a few races, but his figure gets magnified by the awful performance of his teammate, who just can’t be above Grosjean, Ericsson or Hartley.

And Raikonnen bellow Gasly and Perez? I think that the Finn drove for Ferrari way too much seasons than he should have, but this one was far better than the last three; and just thanks to Perez loosing his cool in Singapore and clashing with Sirotkin I would rank him higher up, I don’t reckon any brain fart like that from Kimi...

Edited by coppilcus, 20 December 2018 - 21:40.

[Taxi]

hard to understand how Gasly and Perez were better than Raikkonen, Bottas and Hulkemberg. Plus Vandoorne was easily worse than Ericsson and Grosjean. 

[charly0418]

hard to understand how Gasly and Perez were better than Raikkonen, Bottas and Hulkemberg. Plus Vandoorne was easily worse than Ericsson and Grosjean. 

 

Bottas had the best car of the grid and didnt win 1 race. Sorry he was an absolute failure

[Taxi]

He was robbed of two wins [ Baku and Russia]. Even in Germany without team orders he had every chance of taking it. Maybe he had a mental breakdown in the late part of the year, but it was Mercedes who prevent him of being 3 rd in the championship and winning GP's. This Bottas bashing is getting to harsh. 

Edited by Taxi, 21 December 2018 - 09:17.

[SenorSjon]

Baku was gifted due to the SC and later taken away again by the puncture. His chances for the title were long gone come Russia, so team orders prevailed. 

 

In a direct duel on track, Bottas usually loses out.

[Henri Greuter]

Baku was gifted due to the SC and later taken away again by the puncture. His chances for the title were long gone come Russia, so team orders prevailed. 

 

In a direct duel on track, Bottas usually loses out.

 

But what would have happened with his state of mind etc had he not being forced to play second fiddle or if he had indeed won Baku? A streak of fortune, even if it was fortune may do miracles for a driver's performance thereafter due to increased confidence. Maybe Bottas was no WDC material like Hamilton or Vettel but I believe that the treatment he did get and actually been told to be the wingman certainly didn't help him at all.

 

He still could have been 3rd in the championship this year, be it narrowly over Raikkonen & Max had he been permitted to keep his victory in Russia. And being 3rd or 5th that would have made a difference in the bashing he gets nowadays.

 

 

F1 history has seen more cases of drivers who were not rated as that great at all but once luck and fortune changed on them they turned out to be top contenders after all.

I am nog gonnan say that Bottas is underrated because some of his performances were subpar but there were certainly some circumstances involved that make him look much worse that necessary.

[SenorSjon]

The German team order was the 11th race in which Vettel just made a season-critical mistake. Granting Hamilton that victory was very logical. Bottas beforehand came from a 7th in France, DNF in Austria and 4th in Britain (Lewis did 1-DNF-2). Yes I know Bottas was hit in France, but it wasn't exactly awe-inspiring what he did there to get back to the front (even got overtaken by Magnussen in the end). Russia was the 16th race and with Vettel 3rd, another opportunity to increase the gap. By that time, Bottas' season was already over performance wise. No one would know Vettel would have such a poor end season.

[Taxi]

Nevertheless highly doubt Perez and Gasly would be better in that Mercedes or get 12 podiums in the Ferrari. 

[Ivanhoe]

Perez and Gasly are the benchmark for a Merc seat?

[statman]

2018 ranking on the official F1 site (by their peers)

 

Edited by statman, 22 December 2018 - 09:32.

[GoldenColt]

I had a hunch back in May...

 

[CountDooku]

I had a hunch back in May...

That Lewis was done for?

[Counterbalance]

I had a hunch back in May...

You don't live in Notre dame, do you?

[coppilcus]

2018 ranking on the official F1 site (by their peers)
 

Another closer picture of reality, with at least one huge outlier: Alonso.