38 replies to this topic

[gold333]

Finally found an onboard video (Japanese broadcast) on that banzai lap Berger  did in qualifying Suzuka 1991 and destroyed the whole grid. It''s really an insane lap.

 

 

I can just imagine him double declutching and heel and toeing like crazy. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

PS: I found that this was the only race Senna let Berger through on the last lap to gift him the win in honour of his insane qualifying performance.

Edited by gold333, 04 April 2018 - 20:15.

[Swck81]

MOAR!!!

[uffen]

Proper shifting, proper engine sounds, proper vehicle dynamics. Just pure joy.

[gold333]

I actually read a bit of history on Berger after posting this.

It turns out a few years prior to this he was talking at a table to a team chief asking for a drive and pretended to be bored by cupping his head/chin between his palms. Turns out he was hiding the fact that he was actually holding up his head with his own hands.

He'd broken his neck and the doctors had operated through his throat to try to stitch the nerves back together in his spine. He was trying to land a drive to race the 1600hp Benetton (/Edit-correction 1400hp). (Which he managed to land and actually won with).

He was also the one who superglued a picture of an erect male member on top of Senna's passport picture which caused Senna to be held at an Argentine airport for 24 hrs. Apparently Bergers practical joke repertoire also included unexpected uses of the handbrake as a passenger, one of which caused the private Alfa Romeo (/Edit-correction Lancia Y10) (which Jean Alesi and him had been tasked with delivering to Jean Todt) to flip on its roof and skid to a halt infront of the Ferrari headquarters.

Christ, and he was one of the "also rans". Just a number 2 driver of the 80's.

Talk about real characters back then.

Edited by gold333, 05 April 2018 - 12:14.

[Lee Nicolle]

Terrible piece of footage but so evocative of the driver working very hard. 

Give some of todays heros a drive of those cars and see how fast they go. Though that car was probably 6 speed and now they have 8 or 9 I think.

[john aston]

A Hamilton , Verstappen or Vettel would be every bit as quick . As would Berger(on a good day ), Senna or Piquet in a Ferrari SF71 H or a Mercedes WO9 . Great drivers shouldn't be stigmatised for being born in the 'wrong' decade .

 

I would be amazed if Berger were double declutching - he is blipping the throttle on the down change of course  but that doesn't mean a double declutch.  

 

And 1600bhp Benetton ? The older they get the more powerful they were ....

Edited by john aston, 05 April 2018 - 06:42.

[Tim Murray]

He was trying to land a drive to race the 1600hp Benetton. (Which he managed to land and actually won with).

He broke his neck in late 1984, so I think the drive he was trying to land would have been with Arrows in 1985.

[AJCee]

Bit harsh to describe Berger as an "also ran" and "just a number 2 driver" he was a multiple grand prix winner, consistent front runner and every bit as good as any of his team mates aside from Senna.

[ellrosso]

On his day Berger was very quick and dominant too - had a great win at Adelaide in 1987 (Ferrari - he won two AGP's and two German GP's in his career actually. The last German win was for Benneton in 1997 and a top shelf drive too - his last year in Grand Prix.

I think he admitted himself he wasn't as motivated as Senna but on his good days he was as quick as anyone. 

[Taxi]

Prior to his imola  1989 accident he was a total ace in quali. The only one who could actualy menace Senna. After that he lost a bit of speed I reckon. Even so he was damn fast on his day  and almost outscored Senna in 1992. HIs 1997 germany win after the death of his father was also one of the finnest I've seen because he was driving the 3rd fastest car [or even 4th, because the Mclaren was flying also that year]. 

[Tim Murray]

Hockenheim seemed to suit Gerhard. He would almost certainly have won there in 1996 as well, but his engine blew when he was in the lead, three laps from the end.

[manmower]

Apparently Bergers practical joke repertoire also included unexpected uses of the handbrake as a passenger, one of which caused the private Alfa Romeo (which Jean Alesi and him had been tasked with delivering to Jean Todt) to flip on its roof and skid to a halt infront of the Ferrari headquarters.

I think it was a little Lancia Y10, and instead of being asked to deliver it, they simply found it in the parking lot with the keys in the ingition and decided to have some fun with it, not knowing whose car it was.

[stuartbrs]

Also a brilliant touring car driver 

[nmansellfan]

Great lap - this is from one of Fuji's onboard F1 home videos they did for the Japanese market (under their PonyCanyon brand) from around '89 to '94, either 'Formula One Crash and Battle' or 'F1 1991', I can't remember which.

 

Berger was definitely from the top drawer - even more so pre- '89 (by his own admission).

 

Never did the Benetton B186 have 1600 horsepower though!  Like Honda, BMW's dyno did not measure over 1000 horsepower - the figures I've seen suggest 1250-1400BHP on full boost in qualifying (at 5.7bar boost, I read somewhere once).  No one knows and will ever know for sure how much power the front running turbo era engines produced in qualifying.

 

One last thing (grumpy mode on), why are extraordinary or amazing things described as 'insane' these days?  no insanity there that I can see, just a racing driver doing his job damn well!

[gold333]

Thanks for the corrections! I've edited my post

@nmansellfan: I agree. Though the onboard looks insane (nowadays) because of the heavy shaking and vibration. I've heard it said it's because the cars, (being flat bottomed back then) were so stiffly sprung due to the desire to run millimetres off the ground for speed. Most would end up running on just the bump stops for a considerable part of the lap during qualy. It makes for an "insane" onboard visual compared to the smooth and softly sprung onboards we see nowadays.

Edited by gold333, 05 April 2018 - 12:21.

[Michael Ferner]

I guess you missed the gist of that post...

[gold333]

I guess you missed the gist of that post...

Glad I did!

[MartLgn]

A Hamilton , Verstappen or Vettel would be every bit as quick . As would Berger(on a good day ), Senna or Piquet in a Ferrari SF71 H or a Mercedes WO9 . Great drivers shouldn't be stigmatised for being born in the 'wrong' decade .

 Anyone who has seen images of Tazio Nuvolari wrestling the 1939 Auto Union would surely concur! My F1 fantasy time tunnel would have Nuvolari, Villeneuve, Senna and Hamilton in 1970's chassis powered by 1986 horsepower! One can but dream.

[AJCee]

I fear that those 1970s chassis might bend like bananas! Although Gilles may be at a distinct advantage with his prior experience of the 126C ;-)

[PlayboyRacer]

Epic. I miss that Formula 1.

 

Berger was a top driver in a great era. And such a character 

[john aston]

Oddly enough , drivers' characters off track rarely interest me . Berger was undoubtedly quick , and like more than a few , unbeatable on his day but the accounts of his 'humour' leave me cold . Chucking stuff out of a helicopter? Replacing passport pics with porn (that was him I think ? )? It isn't Noel Coward is it ? in fact it's not even Benny Hill.   

[E1pix]

Concur that Berger was no second-rater, and a cool guy to boot. I also think he was never quite as fast after nearly burning up at Imola.

But surely we all know a clutch isn't used once out on the track (?).

[Henri Greuter]

Finally found an onboard video (Japanese broadcast) on that banzai lap Berger  did in qualifying Suzuka 1991 and destroyed the whole grid. It''s really an insane lap.

 

 

 

I can just imagine him double declutching and heel and toeing like crazy. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

PS: I found that this was the only race Senna let Berger through on the last lap to gift him the win in honour of his insane qualifying performance.

 

 

In fact, Senna asked over the radio in the very final stages of the race if he had to hand the gift to Berger or not.

Only once he was told he had to he did so and made it very obvious as such being on purpose in a manner we later saw twice in 2002 which inflamed the entire F1 world.

If not told to do so, I doubt if he had handed Gerhard the victory, the manner he did it, I felt it being done in a very humilating manner for Berger but I never heard or read how he felt about it.

[Collombin]

I recall he looked delighted rather than embarrassed on the podium, but yes, Senna's way of doing it was hardly on a par with Fangio's.

[john aston]

 

 in a manner we later saw twice in 2002 which inflamed the entire F1 world.

 

 Or those with very short memories as I prefer to call them .

[Ibsey]

In fact, Senna asked over the radio in the very final stages of the race if he had to hand the gift to Berger or not.

Only once he was told he had to he did so and made it very obvious as such being on purpose in a manner we later saw twice in 2002 which inflamed the entire F1 world.

If not told to do so, I doubt if he had handed Gerhard the victory, the manner he did it, I felt it being done in a very humilating manner for Berger but I never heard or read how he felt about it.

 

I could be wrong on this, but my recollection is that Senna was told to hand Berger the win, because Berger was effectively Senna's no.2 at Mclaren at the time. So it was his gift for putting up with that. IIRC that is why Berger left at the end of 92, because although he was good friends with Senna he simply couldn't put up with the no.2 status anymore. 

 

In an Autosport interview in 1994 Berger said he realized after 1st testing the Ferrari at the end of 92 just what a difficult car they had at the time in comparison to the Mclaren.  

Edited by Ibsey, 06 April 2018 - 18:00.

[garoidb]

In fact, Senna asked over the radio in the very final stages of the race if he had to hand the gift to Berger or not.

Only once he was told he had to he did so and made it very obvious as such being on purpose in a manner we later saw twice in 2002 which inflamed the entire F1 world.

If not told to do so, I doubt if he had handed Gerhard the victory, the manner he did it, I felt it being done in a very humilating manner for Berger but I never heard or read how he felt about it.

 

I thought so too.

 

I believe that Gerhard had yet to win a race for McLaren despite being in his second season with them. That is probably why Ron wanted him to win. If Ayrton was up for that, he could have cruised behind Gerhard and made no issue of it. If not, then don't give the place back and explain it to the team later. Gerhard had played his role well that day by putting Mansell under pressure to pass Senna early, before he got too far ahead. Did he sacrifice his tyres too much doing that? I don't know - it may have just been a Murray Walker speculation.

[Henri Greuter]

I thought so too.

 

I believe that Gerhard had yet to win a race for McLaren despite being in his second season with them. That is probably why Ron wanted him to win. If Ayrton was up for that, he could have cruised behind Gerhard and made no issue of it. If not, then don't give the place back and explain it to the team later. Gerhard had played his role well that day by putting Mansell under pressure to pass Senna early, before he got too far ahead. Did he sacrifice his tyres too much doing that? I don't know - it may have just been a Murray Walker speculation.

 

 

I think that Senna's inability to cope with a defeat was strengthened by teh fact that he did secure the world tilte of that season with this race as well, nothing better to win race ant title in one occasion. And then this.....

Another approval of what kind of state he was in that day, after the race he had the infamous press conference in which he admitted that all of Suzuka 1990 had been deliberated after all as a revenge for 1989.

Would he have let that out in a winners press conference?????

 

Anyway, for me, how he handed Berger the win by nearly parking it in the last corner, it was more of an insult to me how he showed that without his mercy on Gerhard he would never won that race....

[gold333]

But surely we all know a clutch isn't used once out on the track (?).

[E1pix]

From what all my driver friends have said, that must be an anomaly...

[gold333]

From what all my driver friends have said, that must be an anomaly...

 

I emailed Hewland (the manufacturer of these gearboxes during the 1991 season) with that very question back in 2011. He said using the clutch on downshifts in 1991 in F1 was common.


This was the question asked:

 

We are told by a racing gearbox engineer that a gear shift in 1991 attempted with a difference in rpm between the input synchro components and the output components of 200-500 rpm or above would almost certainly cause damage to the gearbox and would definitely upset the cars stability. Would you agree with this delta figure between mating halves of a dog clutch of 200-500rpm in 1991? Also do you know if the accuracy of “blip” during clutchless downshifts to the desired engine rpm of the lower gear had to be accurate to within a certain rpm range?

 

 

This was the reply from Mr. Hewland (jr) himself:

"The rpm difference between gear and dog ring is just part of the equation. More importantly is the status of the torque (either engine or braking) on the gear as the engagement is attempted. If the rpm difference is 1000 rpm, the shift will be fine and undamaging if little torque  / inertia is encountered (due to clutch being dipped or zero throttle being applied). Equally a 300rpm difference will cause damage if full throttle (or heavy braking with no clutch) is applied.

 

 

 

Also, if the shift is made very cleanly (quickly), the engagement will likely be very succesful and the dogs will spend little time at different speeds. There are masses of factors; so it is much more complex than simple rpm differences.

 

 

 

To understand the principle; imagine that you are trying to put a wooden stick into rotating fan blades! If the fan is rotating at 1000 rpm and you slowly push the stick in, you will just shave the end of the stick off! If you push the stick in quite fast, it will get a bit of damage, but then rotate with the fan. If you put the stick in incredibly fast, there may be no damage, as it does not touch any passing blades. THEN, imagine the difference of these three examples if you cut the power to the fan during entry. I hope you can see that the variations are great.

 

 

 

Different drivers reduce the torque in different ways. The most common upshift was a partial lift of the throttle. The most common downshift was either a touch of the clutch or a touch of the throttle pedal. Drivers would experiment and have their own style; but pretty much it all worked. Some would have to improve their styles in F1 to make the gearbox last the whole race.

 

 

 

I drove a few laps in a 1990 Tyrrell. The gearshift was very light and easy (given that I was used to other racing gearboxes)."

Edited by gold333, 07 April 2018 - 21:28.

[Charlieman]

Epic. I miss that Formula 1.

Epic? Like really long?

 

Perhaps you intended awesome? So filled with awe that a non-believer like me believes in a deity?

 

It's not that I am an atheist, entirely. I just like to understand words and I try to respect people of faith.

 

Some words and expressions work well in the English language, easy for English speakers to share. And some Englishness screws up the English.

 

"Uninterested" is the word to describe somebody who is not bothered about events; "I don't care whether it rains tonight".

 

"Disinterested" is more complicated; it means that you have not taken a side, and are acting as a judge. 

[PCC]

Epic? Like really long?

 

Perhaps you intended awesome? So filled with awe that a non-believer like me believes in a deity?

epic | ˈepik | adjective • informal particularly impressive or remarkable: the gig last night was epic | these CEOs are paid salaries and bonuses in the millions despite their epic failures.

 

The meanings of words evolve...

[sabrejet]

But I see that "unctuous" still means, "...(chiefly of minerals) having a greasy or soapy feel". So why oh why do pseudo-chefs on TV keep using it to describe (I assume) food that they approve of? Neither would seem to be ideal properties for edible stuff. 

 

Apologies: off-topic but just sayin'...

[Porsche718]

Sometimes I am amazed how a post by a F1 enthusiast can go out of control so easily. I tend to want to a apologize for comments and pull downs that follow an the initial post.

 

Anyway, thanks for the post gold333. Great vid. (and the 2nd video as well)

 

On a side note: I raced this past weekend in my "much lower class open-wheeler", Couldn't get one particular series of corners right. 

 

So instead of a very quick dab of the brakes midway through the bends, I though "I wander if a super quick clutchless downshift" might obtain the neccessary retardation of speed, and prepare the car for the last corner. Tried it once.

 

After removal of many kilos of gravel trap decided I won't do that again.

[PlayboyRacer]

Epic? Like really long?

Perhaps you intended awesome? So filled with awe that a non-believer like me believes in a deity?

It's not that I am an atheist, entirely. I just like to understand words and I try to respect people of faith.

Some words and expressions work well in the English language, easy for English speakers to share. And some Englishness screws up the English.

"Uninterested" is the word to describe somebody who is not bothered about events; "I don't care whether it rains tonight".

"Disinterested" is more complicated; it means that you have not taken a side, and are acting as a judge.

Fascinating.

[Blackjack1967]

That piece of 1.34.700 lasted until the year before the layout retouch in..... 2001! (MSC and the F2001)  

 

Have here 1 and half hour of Berger on board:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=72ITS_rYisw

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

I actually read a bit of history on Berger after posting this.

It turns out a few years prior to this he was talking at a table to a team chief asking for a drive and pretended to be bored by cupping his head/chin between his palms. Turns out he was hiding the fact that he was actually holding up his head with his own hands.

He'd broken his neck and the doctors had operated through his throat to try to stitch the nerves back together in his spine. He was trying to land a drive to race the 1600hp Benetton (/Edit-correction 1400hp). (Which he managed to land and actually won with).

He was also the one who superglued a picture of an erect male member on top of Senna's passport picture which caused Senna to be held at an Argentine airport for 24 hrs. Apparently Bergers practical joke repertoire also included unexpected uses of the handbrake as a passenger, one of which caused the private Alfa Romeo (/Edit-correction Lancia Y10) (which Jean Alesi and him had been tasked with delivering to Jean Todt) to flip on its roof and skid to a halt infront of the Ferrari headquarters.

Christ, and he was one of the "also rans". Just a number 2 driver of the 80's.

Talk about real characters back then.

Berger was never considered also ran in the 80s

Infact media hyped him as a future WDC in the winter of 87/88

Because of his strong finish to the 1987 season and the questionmark over MP4-4 and because Williams went atmospheric.

90% of the media hyped him to win 1988 WDC

But then MP4-4 happened.

[Michael Ferner]

Especially the German speaking press of the time, which was dominated by Austrian writers (you know, they had Rindt, Lauda, Berger and so on, while we had... er, nothing!). Pretty funny how they hyped Berger, in fact, mostly accompanied by a severe case of reality loss. When he finally signed for McLaren, there was one comment that, having demolished (or words to that effect) Mansell, there was now only Senna left, and it would be a piece of cake. It was even more funny to read how they explained reality away in the following three years! By then, there was Schumacher, and the German writers proved they were as incompetent as the Austrians!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 08 May 2018 - 12:27.