268 replies to this topic

[Victor_RO]

We all know that in qualifying trim these F1 cars are the fastest they've ever been. Well... some people in Weissach have apparently set out to show what they can do if a racing car built to a set of rules can be tweaked to go faster by going outside those rules.

 

https://presse.porsc...motorsport-news

 

3 days of running at Spa, an aero-updated and power unit-unrestricted Porsche 919 just put in a lap in the 1:41s, almost a second faster than Hamilton's pole time last year. And they're likely to go to some other tracks as well to try and beat lap records.

 

How does one count these laps if we know that they are set with a racing car that no longer applies to any active rule set? And what PR value are they likely to get from this, especially if they could have still raced the car this year (without these huge changes obviously).

 

EDIT: Some footage of the car running these last few days:

 

[ArrowsLivery]

I thought lap times can only be broken in officially sanctioned events? 

[CountDooku]

Do you think they will challenge Bellof's time in the Nurburgring? If the 919 is matching 2017 F1 cars at Spa then it should easily smoke the 956's time.

[Victor_RO]

I thought lap times can only be broken in officially sanctioned events? 

 

Depends on the track owners I think to begin with. For example, at Daytona, Michael Shank Racing put a slightly modified DP around the trioval to get the speed record there and got it to a 220-ish mph average per lap (in a non-competitive test session), and I think Daytona now counts that as their official lap record.

[Radoye]

[Nonesuch]

 How does one count these laps if we know that they are set with a racing car that no longer applies to any active rule set?

 

A lap record is a lap record.  Then you can divide all those laps up in categories, by non-series, by F1, by sportscars, GT3, etc. Same way the Nürburgring does it.

 

As for the PR value... it's nice, I guess. But it'll be forgotten soon enough. Nobody is surprised that cars can go faster by loosening the restrictions put on them by regulations.

 

I'm sure you could configure an F1 car to go below 1:40 without too much problems.

[Risil]

What a cool farewell tour. I hope Porsche take out adverts all over F1 websites, broadcasts etc pointing out that they've built the world's fastest race car.

[Ali_G]

We all know that in qualifying trim these F1 cars are the fastest they've ever been. Well... some people in Weissach have apparently set out to show what they can do if a racing car built to a set of rules can be tweaked to go faster by going outside those rules.

https://presse.porsc...motorsport-news

3 days of running at Spa, an aero-updated and power unit-unrestricted Porsche 919 just put in a lap in the 1:41s, almost a second faster than Hamilton's pole time last year. And they're likely to go to some other tracks as well to try and beat lap records.

How does one count these laps if we know that they are set with a racing car that no longer applies to any active rule set? And what PR value are they likely to get from this, especially if they could have still raced the car this year (without these huge changes obviously).

EDIT: Some footage of the car running these last few days:

https://www.youtube....h?v=gJ2Dnfki-1M

I’m amazed by this. An F1 car should still be going a lot faster around a circuit like Spa.

I’d expect it to be closer/faster at LeMans but not at a circuit like Spa which depends on corner speed and acceleration/ deceleration. All areas an LMP would lose out.

Is it the same course?

[Victor_RO]

Is it the same course?

 

Not really any way of making a shortcut at Spa.   (Unlike Monza where LMPs in testing often go at full speed past the first chicane) So yes, exact same track layout.

 

 

Do you think they will challenge Bellof's time in the Nurburgring? If the 919 is matching 2017 F1 cars at Spa then it should easily smoke the 956's time.

 

They're only talking about a demo lap. Don't think they will actually push on that one... but doesn't mean they won't. GT3 cars doing 8:15-8:20 around the combined Nordschleife+GP track do an estimated Nordschleife lap in about 6:35-6:40. So even a leisurely lap would beat the record.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m amazed by this. An F1 car should still be going a lot faster around a circuit like Spa.

I’d expect it to be closer/faster at LeMans but not at a circuit like Spa which depends on corner speed and acceleration/ deceleration. All areas an LMP would lose out.

Is it the same course?

 

An LMP1 would lose out. But this isn't an LMP1. It's a Formula Libre car based on an LMP1. Once you take out a lot of the sports car essentials, you effectively have a closed-wheel, closed-cockpit F1 car. You'd expect it to be mega fast. This is probably what a modern Can-Am car would look like.

[Nonesuch]

I’d expect it to be closer/faster at LeMans but not at a circuit like Spa which depends on corner speed and acceleration/ deceleration. All areas an LMP would lose out.

 

Why surprised? Actual LMP1 cars are only about 8-10 seconds slower at Spa than F1 cars.

 

The 'power units' in LMP1 cars are very powerful, never mind when Porsche lets go of all restrictions. F1 cars have gotten so heavy that they're within 150 kg or so of LMP1 cars, and Porsche no doubt found a way to lose some weight for this project.

 

And of course F1 aerodynamics are pretty half-baked compared to LMP1 cars, with their open wheels, smaller floor, etc.

Edited by Nonesuch, 09 April 2018 - 16:00.

[Victor_RO]

Why surprised? Actual LMP1 cars are only about 8-10 seconds slower at Spa than F1 cars.

 

The 'power units' in LMP1 cars are very powerful, never mind when Porsche lets go of all restrictions. F1 cars have gotten so heavy that they're within 150 kg or so of LMP1 cars, and Porsche no doubt found a way to lose some weight for this project.

 

And of course F1 aerodynamics are pretty half-baked compared to LMP1 cars, with their open wheels, smaller floor, etc.

 

LMP1-H cars were at around the 860 kg mark last year dry weight (no fuel and driver). The official press release says they only stripped about 35 kg out, so they're around 110 kg away from a 2018 F1 car (which is weighed with the driver), so with driver and fuel it's still about 180-190 kg's worth of difference.

 

0.8 faster around Spa with 180 kg more weight...

[7MGTEsup]

I wounder how fast an F1 car would go if they removed the fuel flow restriction alone? Let alone removing aero restrictions. All this proves is how much regulations are designed to hold cars back.

[CountDooku]

 

Not really any way of making a shortcut at Spa.   (Unlike Monza where LMPs in testing often go at full speed past the first chicane) So yes, exact same track layout.

 

 

 

They're only talking about a demo lap. Don't think they will actually push on that one... but doesn't mean they won't. GT3 cars doing 8:15-8:20 around the combined Nordschleife+GP track do an estimated Nordschleife lap in about 6:35-6:40. So even a leisurely lap would beat the record.

 

 

Yeah agreed, especially if their GT2 RS on nominally road tyres is able to do 6:47 whilst being 80% heavier.

 

The 919 is AWD right? I really think we should be seeing more of these ultimate lap record challenges on the world famous F1 and sportscar circuits.

[Nonesuch]

0.8 faster around Spa with 180 kg more weight...

 

It's indeed impressive.

 

They boosted the combustion engine's output nearly 50% to 720 bhp (from 500 bhp last year). Add in the front-axle electric engines (up to 440 bhp) and you get a very powerful machine to drive a much more aerodynamically efficient car.

[Nonesuch]

The 919 is AWD right?

 

Yes, electric on the front, combustion on the rear.

[Afterburner]

What a cool farewell tour. I hope Porsche take out adverts all over F1 websites, broadcasts etc pointing out that they've built the world's fastest race car.

I’d like to see them run it at Fontana before they do that.

[SilverArrow31]

Mercedes right now:

 

[Victor_RO]

One thing this has clearly established for the eleventy-billionth time anyway: engineers nowadays in motorsport are crazy geniuses.

[Ali_G]

Not really any way of making a shortcut at Spa. (Unlike Monza where LMPs in testing often go at full speed past the first chicane) So yes, exact same track layout.



They're only talking about a demo lap. Don't think they will actually push on that one... but doesn't mean they won't. GT3 cars doing 8:15-8:20 around the combined Nordschleife+GP track do an estimated Nordschleife lap in about 6:35-6:40. So even a leisurely lap would beat the record.

Is there not a way to avoid the bus stop?

[Ali_G]

It's indeed impressive.

They boosted the combustion engine's output nearly 50% to 720 bhp (from 500 bhp last year). Add in the front-axle electric engines (up to 440 bhp) and you get a very powerful machine to drive a much more aerodynamically efficient car.

Efficient, yes. More downforce prob not. Unless they upgraded the cars aero with bigger tunnels etc?

[PayasYouRace]

Is there not a way to avoid the bus stop?

 

Only if you like rallycross.

 

The old bus stop could be straight lined, but now it's the only way to go.

[PayasYouRace]

Efficient, yes. More downforce prob not. Unless they upgraded the cars aero with bigger tunnels etc?

 

Don't be so sure. An F1 car has no tunnels, and this modified 919's rear wing is probably twice the size of an F1 car's.

[Victor_RO]

Don't be so sure. An F1 car has no tunnels, and this modified 919's rear wing is probably twice the size of an F1 car's.

 

Press release says 53% increase in downforce and 66% increase in aero efficiency compared to the 2017 LMP1 car. It's linked in the OP as well... 

[PayasYouRace]

Press release says 53% increase in downforce and 66% increase in aero efficiency compared to the 2017 LMP1 car. It's linked in the OP as well... 

 

Exactly. Tell Ali_G that.

[maximilian]

A car without rules will usually have a better chance of beating a record than one within rules.  As such, anybody with the resources to build an "ultimate" race car without rules could theoretically easily break lap records.

 

What did the RedBull X score on Spa? 

 

Edited by maximilian, 09 April 2018 - 16:28.

[Ali_G]

The front of the 919 Evo looks so much better than the normal car. It almost looks nice. So much for people saying it wasn’t the LMP regs causing ugly cars.

[PayasYouRace]

It's something about the mandated headlight "bricks" that makes the LMPs so ugly. This looks like a modern Group C car.

[Ali_G]

It's something about the mandated headlight "bricks" that makes the LMPs so ugly. This looks like a modern Group C car.

The wheel surrounds are much more graduated and smoother. Looks very nice head on.

[Victor_RO]

Neel Jani saying on Twitter telemetry indicated 307 kph MINIMUM speed through Eau Rouge/Raidillon.    https://twitter.com/...377700793606145

[ArrowsLivery]

LMP1-H cars were at around the 860 kg mark last year dry weight (no fuel and driver). The official press release says they only stripped about 35 kg out, so they're around 110 kg away from a 2018 F1 car (which is weighed with the driver), so with driver and fuel it's still about 180-190 kg's worth of difference.

 

0.8 faster around Spa with 180 kg more weight...

 

The power of sideskirts. 

 

One thing this has clearly established for the eleventy-billionth time anyway: engineers nowadays in motorsport are crazy geniuses.

 

I think it just shows how powerful CFD and high tech materials are.

[TF110]

It's still 849kg plus the driver. That's nearly 200kg heavier than F1. The engine 'only' makes 720ps, which is probably at least 100hp below F1, the hybrid/ers makes 440ps, which is slightly higher than it normally does. The big difference is there's no lift and coast going on like lmp1's usually do, even during qualifying. Then the modified aero makes a lot more downforce and it has drs front and rear. F1 has drs in the rear. They said they hit over 350kmh. They took out the lights (headlights and leader lights) and other unnecessary electronics that are used to monitor the car for the wec series (probably fuel flow sensor to make sure they're not cheating). It's not even a full-fledged time attack lmp1, it's a 919 evo. So they aren't working with a huge budget to go and compete, it's just 'leftovers' from Porsche's wec cancellation.  I think that says something about just how fast lmp1 could be if it weren't held back to protect f1's "fastest" term. It's 'less powerful', heavier, significantly lower budget etc.

[Kalmake]

Amazed it was only second faster. F1 will probably beat that time this year.

[7MGTEsup]

Mercedes right now:

 

 

Would be nice to see them show up with last years F1 car with fuel flow unlimited and some lairy aero tweaks to see what could be done.

[7MGTEsup]

It's still 849kg plus the driver. That's nearly 200kg heavier than F1. The engine 'only' makes 720ps, which is probably at least 100hp below F1, the hybrid/ers makes 440ps, which is slightly higher than it normally does. The big difference is there's no lift and coast going on like lmp1's usually do, even during qualifying. Then the modified aero makes a lot more downforce and it has drs front and rear. F1 has drs in the rear. They said they hit over 350kmh. They took out the lights (headlights and leader lights) and other unnecessary electronics that are used to monitor the car for the wec series (probably fuel flow sensor to make sure they're not cheating). It's not even a full-fledged time attack lmp1, it's a 919 evo. So they aren't working with a huge budget to go and compete, it's just 'leftovers' from Porsche's wec cancellation.  I think that says something about just how fast lmp1 could be if it weren't held back to protect f1's "fastest" term. It's 'less powerful', heavier, significantly lower budget etc.

 

Yes because F1 is currently an unlimited class..........

 

260hp and 53% downforce increase is not to be sniffed at. The power alone would be worth a few seconds a lap at a place like Spa. That Porsche was making 1160hp......

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 09 April 2018 - 17:35.

[Risil]

The front of the 919 Evo looks so much better than the normal car. It almost looks nice. So much for people saying it wasn’t the LMP regs causing ugly cars.

 

That was my first thought too. Mind you I also like how F1 cars look without rear wings.

[TF110]

Amazed it was only second faster. F1 will probably beat that time this year.

A second faster than F1, but 12 seconds faster than lmp1 (which it ran last year).

 

Yes because F1 is currently an unlimited class..........

 

260hp and 53% downforce increase is not to be sniffed at. The power alone would be worth a few seconds a lap at a place like Spa. That Porsche was making 1160hp......

The Porsche isn't running "unlimited"    It's almost 200kg heavier than an f1 car. It's engine is at least over 100hp down on an f1 car too. The hybrid system is what makes it so powerful and back in 2015 it had just as much because the hybrid boost wasn't capped at the time. In 2017, it was capped at 300kw (~400hp) so they only run a little more hybrid boost than normal, but it isn't restricted to 'just' 6mj per lap. The real time saver is the lack of lifting and coasting. During qualifying and the race, lmp1's have to lift and coast. That isn't the case with this 919 evo. I think it's pretty like for like in that sense, because F1's fuel flow is high enough that there's no lift and coast when they qualify. So they have a downforce advantage and a little bit of power, but are a good deal heavier.

Edited by TF110, 09 April 2018 - 17:46.

[ANF]

Neel Jani saying on Twitter telemetry indicated 307 kph MINIMUM speed through Eau Rouge/Raidillon.    https://twitter.com/...377700793606145

Like this.

[Ali_G]

That was my first thought too. Mind you I also like how F1 cars look without rear wings.

Looking again, the front is much longer than the normal car. Allows a much nicer sloping front. Would be nice if The ACO could take this into account.

[Disgrace]

What a monster.

[EvilPhil II]

That car is running an F1 engine. 

[Victor_RO]

That car is running an F1 engine. 

 

It isn't. Still the same 2-liter V4 as before, only without fuel restrictors and with increased turbo and hybrid boost. Sounds almost identical to how it did at Le Mans at all 3 races I heard it.

[Stephane]

EVeryone going for lap records with ruleless cars, well, what could possibly go wrong ?

[prty]

We all know that in qualifying trim these F1 cars are the fastest they've ever been. Well... some people in Weissach have apparently set out to show what they can do if a racing car built to a set of rules can be tweaked to go faster by going outside those rules.

 

https://presse.porsc...motorsport-news

 

3 days of running at Spa, an aero-updated and power unit-unrestricted Porsche 919 just put in a lap in the 1:41s, almost a second faster than Hamilton's pole time last year. And they're likely to go to some other tracks as well to try and beat lap records.

 

How does one count these laps if we know that they are set with a racing car that no longer applies to any active rule set? And what PR value are they likely to get from this, especially if they could have still raced the car this year (without these huge changes obviously).

 

EDIT: Some footage of the car running these last few days:

 

 

That video gave more sense of speed (and in the case of Eau Rouge, height differences) than any of the "professional" footage I've ever seen in Spa.
 

[A3]

I’m amazed by this. An F1 car should still be going a lot faster around a circuit like Spa.
 

 

The drag the open wheels of an F1 car produce is enormous.

 

With a more effective diffuser the also draggy rear wing can be reduced.

 

If they wanted, they could build an extremely quick F1 car.

Edited by A3, 09 April 2018 - 19:22.

[Gareth]

What a cool farewell tour. I hope Porsche take out adverts all over F1 websites, broadcasts etc pointing out that they've built the world's fastest race car.

Not sure they could put the word "race" in there, could they?

 

But regardless, tonnes of fun project - thanks for posting about it VictorRO! I'd love to see what a "sod the rules" F1 car could do too.

[r4mses]

Impressive, Porsche. 

 

 

 

That video gave more sense of speed (and in the case of Eau Rouge, height differences) than any of the "professional" footage I've ever seen in Spa.
 

 

For years, I'm saying F1's tv coverage is utter trash when it comes to showing how fast the cars are. Most positions and angles of cameras are totally useless. There is - or at least there was, I can't find it on youtube anymore :/ - an amateur video taken from the Bahrain(?) grand stands when ROS was racing HAM... so much better then anything you've ever seen by FOM. 

[blackhand2010]

Meh.

Impressive...?

Yeah. But it just reminds me of the pointlessness of when BAR took a heavily modified F1 car to the Bonneville salt flats (though in true BAR style, they failed to do anything of note) 

[Victor_RO]

Meh.

Impressive...?

Yeah. But it just reminds me of the pointlessness of when BAR took a heavily modified F1 car to the Bonneville salt flats (though in true BAR style, they failed to do anything of note) 

 

Awesome and pointless aren't mutually exclusive in general. And in this case they definitely aren't. It is a PR exercise in the end, but out of it we get the sight of a de-restricted racing car eating up a racetrack. 

[PayasYouRace]

Meh.
Impressive...?
Yeah. But it just reminds me of the pointlessness of when BAR took a heavily modified F1 car to the Bonneville salt flats (though in true BAR style, they failed to do anything of note)

It was Honda who attempted the F1 speed record. They aimed for 400 km/h and got just shy of that.