15 replies to this topic

[tsrwright]

I am digging around for more information on this annual January event from 1902 onwards and particularly the veracity of motorcycle speed claims made by (or on behalf of) Glenn Curtiss in 1907. The weekly local Daytona paper gives a detailed preview and then a review of the events with results but there is no mention whatsoever of the motorcycle activities which there certainly were. Other newspaper reports are cursory. Was it a 2+4 event run under both AAA and FAM sanction or did the motorcycles just turn up and have a bit of a run in the breaks? More information and/or reference to reliable sources would be much appreciated.

[Darren Galpin]

I don't know about the motorcycle events, as I only researched the car results, but I found a reasonable report in the Washington Post, 25th January 1907, pg 8.

[tsrwright]

I don't know about the motorcycle events, as I only researched the car results, but I found a reasonable report in the Washington Post, 25th January 1907, pg 8.

 

Thanks, Darren, I'll try that.

For me this is now a bit of a test of TNF as place for research assistance and discussion, so come on guys, step up to the plate. Since my initial post I have had quite a bit more from private contacts about the races and speed trials run by the Florida East Coast Automobile Association.
 

My main reason for pursuing this topic is to see if I can get to the bottom of the claimed and 'unofficial' 135mph by Glenn Curtiss on a V8 engined one-off motorcycle on or about 24 January 1907. What I most need is primary material in the form of contemporary AAA and FAM rules for speed records pre WW1. I particularly need to know if two-way averages were then required for flying km or mile runs. I do know this was made a FICM requirement about 1920 but I am not sure what the situation was pre war for motorycles and cars in America in particular.

[Vitesse2]

OTTOMH, I think the AAA recognised one-way runs as records, even though the AIACR did not. There are some claimed car LSRs by Americans in various classes which were never homologated by the AIACR. My guess would be that they only changed the rules when Europeans started using American soil - or rather sand - to set outright LSRs in the mid- to late 20s

[Vitesse2]

Preview in the New York Times, with entry lists. No mention of any bikes!

 

https://www.nytimes....g-machines.html

 

From what I can glean from the daily reports in the Times, Curtiss didn't actually make an attempt using the 8-cylinder. It's described in the January 22nd issue - Curtiss having 'broken a knuckle joint' on it. He did a run of 1'05.8 in practice on his 2-cylinder machine.

 

https://www.nytimes....-beach-for.html

 

In the January 23rd issue, Curtiss is reported as having done a run of 53.8". Again the 2-cylinder.

 

https://www.nytimes....d-in-three.html

.

In the January 24th issue - again on the 2-cylinder - there's a report of a match race against William Ray's Simplex, which he beat by 'about fifteen feet' in a time of 46.4" (77.59mph)

 

https://www.nytimes....-meet-with.html

 

No mention of any bikes in the January 25th issue ... 'no startling performances' either!

 

https://www.nytimes....es-an-hour.html

 

 

[tsrwright]

Thanks for that and what you say about the AAA is what I was thinking. 

I guess I should subscribe to NYT for my current purposes as it seems to have more than the Daytona paper which is free on line at the Library of Congress. I think all the major newspaper archives in the US are pay to view - is that right?

This morning's email tells me there is also stuff I could use at the US National Archives so the discovery of quite marvelous online resources continues; I wonder, what would be the best magazine for AAA news of the period?

 

T.

Edited by tsrwright, 13 April 2018 - 00:46.

[tsrwright]

I got really good pdfs from those links so thank you.

[Vitesse2]

All US newspapers published before 1923 are theoretically in the public domain. However, in practice they can be difficult to pin down. A lot disappeared into the maw of Google News Archive, which is pretty much in limbo and unsearchable pre-1980. A new search engine for it was promised five years ago ...

[Vitesse2]

Looking at the Wikipedia article, the first apparent source for this claim seems to be the Guinness Book of Motorcycle Facts and Feats, published 1979.

[tsrwright]

Looking at the Wikipedia article, the first apparent source for this claim seems to be the Guinness Book of Motorcycle Facts and Feats, published 1979.

 

I have found the FAM rules as of 1 January 1905 at http://archive.org/s...age/40/mode/2up. There is nothing there about 2-way averages and I suspect the idea had not occurred to anybody then. But what about the AAA? And when did the AIACR take it up? FICM wasn't until 1920.

Edited by tsrwright, 14 April 2018 - 09:46.

[DCapps]

I am away at the moment, but mentioned this to someone I met and talked to from the National Motorcycle Museum here at the conference. He is going to look into this and see what he can find.

 

The AIACR (CSI from 1922 or so and basically the CS ACF prior to that) did not recognize or accept any of the AAA claims until after the AAA CB effectively gained membership on the CSI in 1928.

 

Basically, a bunch of this information is floating around out there, some of it in digital format. However, tracking it down and accessing it is another thing entirely. Try the Hathi Trust at the University of Michigan as one place to look.

 

Be prepared for the digitization of scholarly archival materials to become locked behind paywalls and with restricted access. A topic we discussed the past few days here.

[tsrwright]

That's good, thank you Donald. I was amazed to just find that the FIA has an LSR archive at https://www.fia.com/...tions-1925-1980. I think the earliest file in English is 1926 and even that may not be complete but full marks for them having this.

[Vitesse2]

After a bit of hunting, I tracked the story down in this earlier book. It's from Glenn Curtiss, Pioneer of Flight by Cecil R. Roseberry (1st edition Doubleday, 1972; still in print in paperback from Syracuse University Press, ISBN 9780815602644). Apparently well-sourced, including the much-quoted news headline, which it turns out is from the Chicago Daily News.

 

https://books.google...=ormond&f=false

 

In summary, it seems it was an unofficial out of contest run, after the official Speed Carnival finished, to which the timekeepers consented, despite there being no suitable category within their formal record book. Maybe there's more in the Daily News report?

[tsrwright]

Thank you, that looks like a good book to have anyway and I have ordered it for all the flying stuff.

 

The account given there of the Curtiss V8 motorcycle run is interesting and probably about correct but both the Curtiss museum (which has a replica) and the Smithsonian (which claims to have the original) rather over-egg the bike's claim to fame.

 

Reporting the speed in a Scientific American shortly afterwards (9 February 1907), next to an eyewitness account by Curtiss of the Stanley steamer overturning and exploding (so this report probably came from Curtiss too) it is stated that in an 'unofficial mile test' ( by now I know AAA etc only did one-way runs) 'timed by stop watches from the start by several persons who watched through field glasses a flag waved at the finish, Mr Curtiss is said to have covered this distance in 26 2/5 seconds'.  It then says, "Unfortunately, before this new mile record could be corroborated by an official test, the universal joint broke ... later on the frame buckled ...  and the official test had to be abandoned".

Similar was reported without much enthusiasm in The Bicycling World only a couple of days later saying 'private trials "don't go" and the machine was way over weight anyway'. Motorcycle Illustrated isn't available to me for its report, but in the next, March, issue William Wray wrote " As I was not only a witness, but a competitor as well, I beg to question what was said regarding this so called record. The eight-cylinder motor cycle was far in excess of the 110 lbs weight limit .... The trial was not witnessed by the judges of the Florida East Coast Automobile Association, and not one at the beach was aware that any such phenomenal trial had been attempted".

 

The Smithsonian states in its official description "He recorded a record-setting speed of 218 kph (136 mph) during his run. He was dubbed "the fastest man on Earth."

 

Leaving aside the fact the bike more or less fell apart after one run it seems improbable to me and others that it could have done 136mph on its first run with the reported '30-40hp' available.

 

PS there is a photo of the bike at https://www.facebook...f=page_internal

Go on, try it
 

Edited by tsrwright, 16 April 2018 - 10:09.

[Vitesse2]

Just adding this for reference: https://www.classicb...f-exaggeration/

[DCapps]

Two sources from motorcycling journals:

"The 'Kings' of the Carnival." The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review, 26 January 1907, 509; and, "The Doings on the Beach," The Bicycling World and Motorcycle Review, 2 February 1907, 537.

 

Reports of the Beach Carnival in the automotive journals:

 

Automobile Topics: 26 January 1907, 1562-1569; and, 2 February 1907, 1637-1638, 1652-1658.

 

The Automobile: 24 January 1907, 199-200; and, 31 January 1907, 247-250.

 

Motor Age: 24 January 1907, 1-3; and 31 January 1907, 1-3.

 

Automobile Magazine: March 1907, 113-114.

 

Dick Punnett, Racing on the Rim: A History of the Annual Automobiling Racing Tournaments Held on the Sands of the Ormond-Daytona Beach, Florida (Tomoka Press, 1997), 61-71.

 

Dick Punnett, Beach Racers: Daytona Before NASCAR (University Press of Florida, 2008), 78-92.