135 replies to this topic

[PayasYouRace]

I think the word "attitude" in your first sentence regarding Duncan's post may be slightly misleading with all due respect, but it really shouldn't bother you at all.
 
I wasn't familiar with the word "rookie" (which was always from a North American standpoint, was it not) all those years ago and can even remember questioning others as to what it actually meant!
 
We continue to use more and more Americanisms of course and some of them are at least amusing - although "deplane" the other week in New York most certainly wasn't.
 
Anyhow, this is a ridiculous thread and I sense the end of TNF somehow...

What I’m referring to is the attitude of trying to downplay Jacques’ (or anyone’s) rookie achievements, whatever word you use, by saying how they had been successful elsewhere. It doesn’t matter what they did before, it was still their first time, call it “rookie” or “debut” or whatever.

[AJCee]

I didn't think I'd need to clarify. :-(

I am aware that the term rookie has been used for over 100 years as a term for a new recruit or beginner. Principally it is a US term.

The point I was trying to make is that it is another term that has crept into the UK Lexicon where a term already existed. Compare the current discussion on the use of the soulless term 'Turn'.

Before anyone goes on about being a fossilised stick in the mud unable to accept the evolution of language: I have two primary school children and am comfortable with linguistic mangulations such as the current usage of 'sick' and (almost) the use of 'bad' as a noun.

I'm quite comfortable with the use of rookie and turn. I just prefer them in the context of US racing.

[Vitesse2]

FWIW the OED traces 'rookie' - originally 'rookey' - to mid-19th century British Army cavalry slang, as a corruption of 'recruit'; it later spread to the police. They actually cite Kipling using it in 1891; the word had transferred to America by the early 1900s, where it acquired its sporting connotations, although it seems to have generally fallen out of use between the wars.

[AJCee]

I thank my learned colleague :-)

[BRG]

FWIW the OED traces 'rookie' - originally 'rookey' - to mid-19th century British Army cavalry slang, as a corruption of 'recruit'; it later spread to the police. They actually cite Kipling using it in 1891; the word had transferred to America by the early 1900s, where it acquired its sporting connotations, although it seems to have generally fallen out of use between the wars.

Most of the 'Americanisms' or neologisms that the more crusty elements of British society rail against turn out to be British words that have fallen into disuse in the UK but that have been preserved in the USA.  'Gotten' is a good example - many English verbs used to use the '-en' ending but the British no longer use them and sneer at American usage as some sort of new fangled word mangling.

[PlayboyRacer]

TNF has been on "its last legs" since November 1999 and "motorsport was we [knew] it" ended eons upon eons ago, something that even normally clueless me noticed. That said, I have been struck just much TNF has been morphing of late. As to whether that is "good" or "bad" is a matter of one's viewpoint and opinion, of course. Time moves on, even as we attempt to stand still in some cases.

That's all good and well... but I still don't understand the need for posters to announce their displeasure and 'the end of TNF' in every thread they despise.

It really is a strange attitude.

[Michael Ferner]

Not so much strange, but I agree, it does grate (coming from someone who's not entirely without fault in this department). Perhaps we should try to lighten up a bit?

I guess much of this is the "recent history" gap that is being filled by new (to TNF) posters, and the forum as such will have to deal with it. As long as "old" posters do not leave in heaps, I think TNF will cope with it. Just remember, there is no obligation to post on every thread. Try to concentrate your energies on threads that you think are what TNF really is about, and I'm sure things'll balance out!

[PlayboyRacer]

Well said Michael Ferner 

 

I'm sure we can all get along, I wouldn't want long standing TNF residents leaving in droves. It's the essence of this forum but surely a smattering of 80s/90s discussion won't detract from that. If anything I would think that would only enhance it. Stay respectful to all and I don't see the issue.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 06 May 2018 - 08:33.

[DCapps]

Somewhat off topic, but still related somewhat: How can someone be "+ 1 lap" in the results? I can see being "- 1 lap," of course, but how does someone with an additional lap, that "+ 1" remember, get placed behind those supposedly on the lead lap? Did I miss something? Or it is some sort of Euro/F1-thing that I don't get? Or, perhaps, too dense to get?

[E1pix]

I think it's just an extension of when one arrives at the line, a continuation of a broadcast gap ticker showing like "+2.89 seconds."

The "almost three seconds late to the party" angle.

[D-Type]

Assume a 60 second lap for simplicity.  The gap goes something like: 1 second . . . 55 seconds, 59 seconds, 5 seconds + 1 lap, 10 seconds  + 1 lap etc.  Then a sub-editor shortens the list by taking out the seconds.
Even if there is an explanation, it's still irritating.

[PhantomRaspberryBlower]

I was always astonished by Hill's speed in F3000, especially in that unsponsored Middlebridge car that wouldn't last the race. No disrespect meant to DH's talent but I've occasionally wondered if there weren't some shenanigans going on with that car.

 

.... linguistic mangulations such as the current usage of 'sick' and (almost) the use of 'bad' as a noun....

 

The currently popular usage of 'sick' has been around a lot longer than most people realise. Certainly many a Jeff Beck or Jimi Hendrix guitar solo were described as 'sick' back in the 60s by the cool kids.

[AJCee]

According to the BBC's Chief Formula 1 Writer the Williams team have a sophomore driver. Seems a word somewhat out of the context of its usual use.
Regardless of etymology and historic usage is this terminology being driven by the new owners of the F1 circus?

[Michael Ferner]

Very much in usage by US sports writers, so I guess the answer is: yes.

[Charlieman]

Very much in usage by US sports writers, so I guess the answer is: yes.

Sophomore is not a word used by UK English writers. Having worked at a UK university for 20 years, I can say that I never heard it used with regard to students. It's one of those expressions like sorority for which I have to consult a reference book to remind myself of different definitions. I'm surprised that a BBC journalist would use the word outside a quotation.

 

I wonder whether the new media rights owners of F1 have considered how/whether American terminology affects the sport's image. F1 and F2/F3/FJ etc are historically "European style" racing, born from closed-public-road and parkland racing. Obviously the style of racing has been adopted more or less globally, including the former colonies of European countries. Its Europeanness has been embraced by some non-colonial countries like Japan; and F1 (and F2 and F3000) adapted to cultural differences in Japan.

 

The USA has hosted F1 WDC races for 50 years with varying financial success for the organisers. The Europeanness of F1 is a draw to some fans -- like Scandi-Noir TV dramas -- so F1 races at Long Beach and Watkins Glen almost worked financially if the price of hosting a race hadn't increased. The Las Vegas GP was created because the organisers wanted something European to happen in a car park  . USA fans get up early to watch F1 races live on TV.

 

I dunno whether F1 is a more saleable sports product in the USA or globally if it loses Europeanness. I wouldn't want the Japanese GP to lose its Japanness. I'd like the Chinese GP to have Shanghai identities -- that's how organisers sell race tickets and build TV audiences.

 

MotoGP is very European even though some great riders have arrived from Australian and US dirt track racing. I recall watching the annual prize ceremony on TV one year when a young rider was asked in English and Spanish the usual daft question about his season; he replied in French and Italian; those lads are smart and they adapt to everything.

[john winfield]

Very much in usage by US sports writers, so I guess the answer is: yes.

 

'Sophomore', goodness, I assume Mr. Benson is excited by the prospect of a 2019 race in Miami and has come over all American. If he starts using 'Juniors', 'Seniors' and 'Middlers' I shall be mad as hell. And confused.

[Cornholio]

Well said Michael Ferner

I'm sure we can all get along, I wouldn't want long standing TNF residents leaving in droves. It's the essence of this forum but surely a smattering of 80s/90s discussion won't detract from that. If anything I would think that would only enhance it. Stay respectful to all and I don't see the issue.

On this topic, from a personal standpoint, as someone who started following the sport in 1991 and born in 1983, anything that happened prior to the first date and especially the second I've always considered to be part of the sport's history as opposed to something I ever lived through and experienced first hand.

But more importantly, taking the forum's name literally, lately I've been watching old races and reading old magazines from as recent as the mid-to-late 90s, reliving memories, and honestly getting quite nostalgic about it all.

And I am getting on a bit, there'll be people a little younger than me with similar feelings but with those years shifted even further forward still.

Plus if this forum if i understand correctly is approximately two decades old (give or take a few years), then talking about 80s/90s topics now is surely no more out of place than 60s/70s discussions that may have taken place at the forum's inception, which surely must have been the case?

[jcbc3]

'Sophomore', goodness, I assume Mr. Benson is excited by the prospect of a 2019 race in Miami and has come over all American. If he starts using 'Juniors', 'Seniors' and 'Middlers' I shall be mad as hell. And confused.

England doesn't have monopoly on English.

I am brought up and taught in Europe, and was thus also mighty confused at my first encounter with American English. But rather than shout: "But..but.. it's WRONG", I just set out to learn and understand.

Or as some professor once said on the radio in regard to evolving languages. "In the struggle between 'old' and 'new', 'new' always win. So better get used to it".

[Charlieman]

Or as some professor once said on the radio in regard to evolving languages. "In the struggle between 'old' and 'new', 'new' always win. So better get used to it".

As a grammar school lad, I'm a modernist for grammar. How do I wrap the quotes around a sentence ending with a quotation mark within a quotation? Just make sense, I suppose.

 

Why should I scrap an old definition for which there is no replacement?

 

Some definitions for you:

Epic -- tediously long Greek or Latin narrative, adjective also used for old Hollywood films about Romans.

Chronic -- long lasting, but not as long as epic.

Uninterested or disinterested -- I am uninterested about dogs because I care about parrots; I am disinterested about dogs because I don't have any dogs in today's race.

 

The other day I heard a professional man on radio mistakenly use the word "duplicity" for "duplication". An easy slip of the tongue.

[john winfield]

England doesn't have monopoly on English.

I am brought up and taught in Europe, and was thus also mighty confused at my first encounter with American English. But rather than shout: "But..but.. it's WRONG", I just set out to learn and understand.

Or as some professor once said on the radio in regard to evolving languages. "In the struggle between 'old' and 'new', 'new' always win. So better get used to it".

 

I don't have a problem with that at all jc. I was being facetious, not shouting. Well, not too loudly. English is a fluid, evolving, worldwide language. Mi duck.

 

But I think Andrew Benson is British, and he's writing for the BBC, about a sport which, although worldwide, is more European than American. Sophomore does seem rather a strange word to use in this context, although he is referring to Canadian Lance Stroll so perhaps I'm just being parochial. What's the Russian for 'rookie'?

[jcbc3]

Charlieman:
Point is, that there is no right or wrong. But there is evolution. Very few people these days speak like Shakespeare. And his parents probably lambasted him for his use of English.

Winfield:
I believe it's in the BBC Charter also to educate the British people ;-)


Let's finish this one of here, as it has nothing to do with the thread.

[Charlieman]

Very few people these days speak like Shakespeare. And his parents probably lambasted him for his use of English.

The odds are that Bill talked like a smart Worcestershire or County lad of the time. He would not have been a popular person.

[Tim Murray]

Apparently Shakespeare devised over 1700 new word usages:

http://shakespeare-o...dsinvented.html

Talking about Americanisms, one of these days I might just summon the enthusiasm to find out exactly what a ‘homecoming queen’ is.

[Charlieman]

Apparently Shakespeare devised over 1700 new word usages

A few neologisms per annum for 500 years?

[john aston]

I adore Americanisms when used by Americans but loathe them when employed by Brits. My current horror is the use of 'likely ' instead of 'probably'- 'Hamilton will likely win the championship' . Fine if the speaker is from Wyoming but not fine if he is from Wilmslow ...

[BRG]

Talking about Americanisms, one of these days I might just summon the enthusiasm to find out exactly what a ‘homecoming queen’ is.

I have often wondered what that means as well, but like you have never had sufficient urge to actually find out.  Perhaps someone will now tell us and save us the effort!

 

In any event, we will likely probably find out soon enough as the practice is imported to the UK, just as the 'prom' has become a regular thing here in the last 10 years or so.  If there is money to be made, the retail business will stoke up these things, so we now suffer the full US-style Halloween and Black Friday (now already lasting a week or more!).

 

I don't mind 'sophomore' as we don't have an equivalent word AFAIK.

Edited by BRG, 11 May 2018 - 17:55.

[kayemod]

Talking about Americanisms, one of these days I might just summon the enthusiasm to find out exactly what a ‘homecoming queen’ is.

 

I'd always assumed that the term referred to someone like Julian Clary returning home from holiday.

[Michael Ferner]

You guys make me sick. I'm trying hard to learn a foreign language, n'all I get is confused!

If English is supposed to be *the* lingua franca, can we now get over these petty squabbles?

[Tim Murray]

So you’ve never teased us poor foreigners visiting Germany by trying words such as ‘Oachkatzlschwoaf’ on them, Michael?

[Michael Ferner]

Nah, nobody says Oachkatzlschwoaf where I come from. It's a Kaweescherik!

[kayemod]

So you’ve never teased us poor foreigners visiting Germany by trying words such as ‘Oachkatzlschwoaf’ on them, Michael?

 

Easy peasy.

 

 

An Austrian friend tried this on me years ago. I managed to pronounce it, more or less, after a few tries, but his Munich born wife couldn't. What put us all in our place, is that his Austrian born 10 year old daughter managed it as well, first time.

[Michael Ferner]

An Austrian friend tried this on me years ago. I managed to pronounce it, more or less, after a few BEERS

Be honest!

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Keke in 1982, had no right to win that title, but he did. Does that make him less of a champion.
if you think that, then you are fairl gormless, as you are if you think Nico did not deserve his title

Especially as he had the common sense, maturity and downright guts to quit straughtaway!

OMG

Since when does one need a right to win the title.

He won the title. End of story.

Italy won a Word Cup in 1982 in simmilar fashion.

Both of them have something in common. They both won the title.

Watson failed to win. Jones failed. Lauda failed. Prost failed. Piquet failed. Pironi maimed himself. Villeneuve killed himself.

They all have one thing in common. They did not win the title.

As simple as that.

[AJCee]

Wasn't Alan Jones tending his barbecue during the 1982 season?

[Michael Ferner]

That, and taking out a Porsche on occasions.

[ensign14]

The odds are that Bill talked like a smart Worcestershire or County lad of the time. He would not have been a popular person.

 

His rhyme scans are very Brummagem...