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2019 IndyCar Silly Season


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#2851 Jim Thurman

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 16:24

For an event with a 102 race history (+ throwing in the U.S. 500 in), that's a remarkably low number of multi-car incidents while heading to, taking or passing under the green flag. Especially when compared to that series with "the greatest drivers in the world."*  It would be an interesting comparison, and perhaps lead to "Gone Full F1"   ;)  :lol:

 

granted, most of those are limited to shards of carbon fiber, the full-on collisions usually - but not always - occurring at the first corner.


Edited by Jim Thurman, 22 April 2019 - 17:05.


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#2852 BRG

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 17:19

Actually, the series with 'the greatest drivers in the world' almost always gets all its cars round the formation lap safely. 

 

There have been breakdowns and perhaps an occasional coming-together, but never (I think I can safely say subject to being proved totally wrong) a major carambolage before reaching the starting grid.   After the lights go out (there was never a green flag even in analogue days) it is a different matter.  'Full F1' has been achieved best at Spa where there have been several quite successful attempts to demolish the entire field at the first corner.



#2853 E.B.

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 17:24

Apples and oranges - rolling v standing starts.

#2854 Anja

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 17:30

Meanwhile, to no one's surprise, Hildebrand is back with Dreyer & Reinbold: https://www.indycar....ld-car-48-entry


Edited by Anja, 22 April 2019 - 17:30.


#2855 Jim Thurman

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 17:53

Actually, the series with 'the greatest drivers in the world' almost always gets all its cars round the formation lap safely. 

 

There have been breakdowns and perhaps an occasional coming-together, but never (I think I can safely say subject to being proved totally wrong) a major carambolage before reaching the starting grid.   After the lights go out (there was never a green flag even in analogue days) it is a different matter.  'Full F1' has been achieved best at Spa where there have been several quite successful attempts to demolish the entire field at the first corner.

 

How about Michael Schumacher, China 2005? I seem to recall another formation lap collision, but not able to pull it in at the moment  :confused:

 

The equivalent of taking the green flag vs. the green light is the comparison I am making. Other than the U.S. 500, I can only come up with three incidents where there was a collision before the green fell in the Indianapolis 500, only one of which reached le grand carambolage level. Only two of those occurred on the U.S. racing equivalent of the formation lap. The first had as much to do with a ridiculous and confusing line-up system that was abandoned. The other one, well, not so much  :)  That's 3 in 102 races. The 1966 and 1973 Indianapolis 500 incidents occurred after the green flag waved. 1958 was the third turn of lap 1 before the crash, although getting the cars formed was a complete mess, only straightened out at the last moment.

 

Yes, 1998 Spa does come to mind for a great example of things going "Full F1."

 

Besides, I'm just givng a bit of a wind up, hence the   ;)


Edited by Jim Thurman, 06 May 2019 - 21:07.


#2856 Stephane

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:04

Schumacher in China was during reconnaissance laps, so even before the formation lap.



#2857 blkirk

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:24

The 92 Indy 500 had two cars spinning in separate incidents long before the green flew.  It wasn't le grand carambolage, but one of the spinners was the man on pole.



#2858 Jim Thurman

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:25

The 92 Indy 500 had two cars spinning in separate incidents long before the green flew.  It wasn't le grand carambolage, but one of the spinners was the man on pole.

 

Single car incidents are not on the table. Same applies to single car incidents in F1. Not what we are discussing, only collisions  :wave:

 

EDIT: Besides, even if counting single car incidents, I doubt the gap between Indycar and F1 would again be as great as it is perceived by some.


Edited by Jim Thurman, 22 April 2019 - 18:28.


#2859 loki

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:51

Actually, the series with 'the greatest drivers in the world' almost always gets all its cars round the formation lap safely. 

 

How about when they are on ovals rolling toward a 150 mph plus start?  How do they do then?...



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#2860 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:59

As if there have never been first corner pileups in Indycar racing.

 

At Indy itself though, it helps that they start with the rows further apart than normal, and it helps massively that they don't have to brake for the first corner. That's when first corner pileups happen, because the entire field is slowing for the first corner and people misjudge things.

 

Cut the crap about "best drivers in the world". Getting 20+ cars, accelerating from a standing start and all arriving at the first corner at the same time with different braking points is going to lead to a lot more chaos than a similarly large field approaching a corner where they're all approaching at the same sort of speed and don't have to slow down. Part of the reason why rolling starts are usually considered safer is because everyone is already rolling, the gaps tend to be bigger and everyone is approaching turn 1 at a similar speed. With a standing start, the guys who started at the back are approaching the first corner faster than those who started at the front.

 

You only have to look at what sort of circuits produce first corner pileups. Places like Spa and Monaco. Places where the first turn is very tight and or street circuits. First lap incidents were quite rare at Silverstone when Copse was the first corner and the first heaving breaking was halfway round the lap at the Vale. Now while most tend to get through Abbey and Farm without problems, things get crazy at Village.

 

Honestly, if there's one place you wouldn't expect a lot of first corner crashes, it's the big ovals.

 

Going back to that 1996 US 500, the start grid crash was one of the most unlucky events to happen in and around the split. It gave the CART detractors an wholly unfair stick to beat the series with, because they had no problem doing 3-wide starts at Michigan in previous years and managed it without problems in the Marlboro 500 that year.



#2861 Joseki

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 08:48

Is there going to a thread for the test / preparation / pratices of the Indy 500? The test is tomorrow.



#2862 B Squared

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 09:33

Is there going to a thread for the test / preparation / pratices of the Indy 500? The test is tomorrow.

No; it's much more productive and fun to point out the bad things about this series in the eyes of Autosports "great IndyCar fans."  ;)



#2863 B Squared

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 10:19

Meanwhile, to no one's surprise, Hildebrand is back with Dreyer & Reinbold: https://www.indycar....ld-car-48-entry

Is this the same guy that, a couple of years ago, said he was tired of hearing about how good Rick Mears, Foyt, Andretti, Unser's, et al were around the Speedway and that he and the young guys were just as good? Except for that little fact, JR baby, that I don't recall any of them leading the 200th lap of a 200 lap race and smearing their car all over the turn four wall as they came down to take the checker flag. No sympathy here mate, hopefully your "greatness" will be parked on the D&R transporter on race day.

#2864 noriaki

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:31

Is this the same guy that, a couple of years ago, said he was tired of hearing about how good Rick Mears, Foyt, Andretti, Unser's, et al were around the Speedway and that he and the young guys were just as good? Except for that little fact, JR baby, that I don't recall any of them leading the 200th lap of a 200 lap race and smearing their car all over the turn four wall as they came down to take the checker flag. No sympathy here mate, hopefully your "greatness" will be parked on the D&R transporter on race day.

Oh come on now. I, too love learning about the history of Champ Car as much as anyone, and have the utmost respect on the guys who did it especially in the 60's and 70's. If I had a time machine but could only use it once, I wouldn't hesitate a heartbeat to use it to go back to May 1967 in Indiana.

But JR's point was that no matter how great the history of the sport is, the series cannot live forever based on reminiscing about the generations past alone. And that the #1 thing the series needs are new marketable (American) heroes, which certainly the series was lacking when he said what he said. And which, thankfully, have started to emerge lately, spearheaded by Newgarden and Rossi, and which I think already is positively reflecting on the health of the series.

There's no need to wish anyone ill based on comments like that.

Edited by noriaki, 23 April 2019 - 11:33.


#2865 maximilian

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 12:14

Is there going to a thread for the test / preparation / pratices of the Indy 500? The test is tomorrow.

 

Herewith done!  :kiss:



#2866 bargeboard

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 12:26

Is this the same guy that, a couple of years ago, said he was tired of hearing about how good Rick Mears, Foyt, Andretti, Unser's, et al were around the Speedway and that he and the young guys were just as good? Except for that little fact, JR baby, that I don't recall any of them leading the 200th lap of a 200 lap race and smearing their car all over the turn four wall as they came down to take the checker flag. No sympathy here mate, hopefully your "greatness" will be parked on the D&R transporter on race day.

 

Weren't you the person who was getting on people for bagging on Marco's lack of racing talent? Something along the lines of respecting all of these people who put their life on the line? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if Marco didn't have the last name Andretti, and JR did, they'd probably have pretty close to the same career as the other had..



#2867 paulb

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 15:55

Oh come on now. I, too love learning about the history of Champ Car as much as anyone, and have the utmost respect on the guys who did it especially in the 60's and 70's. If I had a time machine but could only use it once, I wouldn't hesitate a heartbeat to use it to go back to May 1967 in Indiana.

But JR's point was that no matter how great the history of the sport is, the series cannot live forever based on reminiscing about the generations past alone. And that the #1 thing the series needs are new marketable (American) heroes, which certainly the series was lacking when he said what he said. And which, thankfully, have started to emerge lately, spearheaded by Newgarden and Rossi, and which I think already is positively reflecting on the health of the series.

There's no need to wish anyone ill based on comments like that.

If that was the point JR was trying to make, then he sure did a crappy job of that by saying the current, largely unproven, generation of young drivers are as good as legends.



#2868 noriaki

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 16:24

If that was the point JR was trying to make, then he sure did a crappy job of that by saying the current, largely unproven, generation of young drivers are as good as legends.

 

http://archive.jsonl...-199458151.html

 

Well here's the article I kind of remembered and thought BSquared was referring to. Where J.R. was essentially guilty of saying he wants to fit the Johnny Rutherford mould by winning the 500. 

 

So sparked by this I went on google in case he had run his mouth somewhere else which I would have missed. But Google couldn't catch JR saying anything disrespectful about anyone at all. It only turned out Hildebrand is actually a big Indycar history buff, too. As one decent example, here https://medium.com/@...et-678363c806c7 are his thoughts on Dan Gurney whose #48 he will run as a tribute this May. Which only makes it even more unfair to spout this kind of "anti-history kid" nonsense about Hildebrand. 



#2869 Jim Thurman

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 19:33

As if there have never been first corner pileups in Indycar racing.

 

 

Cut the crap about "best drivers in the world". Getting 20+ cars, accelerating from a standing start and all arriving at the first corner at the same time with different braking points is going to lead to a lot more chaos than a similarly large field approaching a corner where they're all approaching at the same sort of speed and don't have to slow down. Part of the reason why rolling starts are usually considered safer is because everyone is already rolling, the gaps tend to be bigger and everyone is approaching turn 1 at a similar speed. With a standing start, the guys who started at the back are approaching the first corner faster than those who started at the front.

 

 

Going back to that 1996 US 500, the start grid crash was one of the most unlucky events to happen in and around the split. It gave the CART detractors an wholly unfair stick to beat the series with, because they had no problem doing 3-wide starts at Michigan in previous years and managed it without problems in the Marlboro 500 that year.

 

I never said there hadn't been first corner pileups at Indycar races. I was simply trying to balance the scales a bit from the "HA HA it's so Indycar" tripe and the belief by some that pileups, incompetent driving and incompetent race management are staples of Indycar, and solely Indycar. That is the overriding point. It happens to everyone, even the alleged "best drivers in the world" (which was stated firmly tongue-in-cheek).

 

Sports in general, and motorsport it seems in particular, have been known to shoot themselves in the foot from time to time. It happens. As far as race management, all racing series have been known to make a hash of it from time to time (though USAC more than others :lol: ). There are some F1 gaffes that are every bit the equivalent of "HA HA Indycar!" Even with the brilliance of Charlie Whiting, there was the occasional issue. Wally Dallenbach was very much the Charlie Whiting of CART, and you'll find similarly few problems during his tenure. In the USAC-IRL era, and as recent as the Brian Barnhart era, there was much justification for criticism. Again, it's not the criticism I have any problem with, it's the amount and how it's framed.

 

Concur completely about the U.S. 500, but then again, the warring fan camps were going to do that to each other, no matter what.

 

Now, about that unfair stick part...   


Edited by Jim Thurman, 23 April 2019 - 19:34.


#2870 B Squared

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 00:49

I've been travelling today and have looked in with amusement at the ire my JR Hildebrand comment has caused. Funny in that in looking at every Indy Car thread over the years it is quite commonplace to see negative comments and ill-wishes directed at most drivers on the grid. Now we know the limit: Hildebrand is off limits by me, everyone else can deride away on the drivers of their choice.

#2871 noriaki

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:03

Well your "criticism" was not only particularly maliciously worded - or how often do you see other people here straight out wishing for retirement on the drivers? - but also utterly baseless. And as bargeboard pointed out you have previously claimed to be above that kind of behaviour, so I thought I might get a mature response and maybe change your mind about Hildebrand if confronted about it rationally. Too much to wish for clearly.

Or at least do back it up with JR's actual quote if mine wasn't what you were referwncing to.

Edited by noriaki, 24 April 2019 - 07:08.


#2872 Myrvold

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:35

I never said there hadn't been first corner pileups at Indycar races. I was simply trying to balance the scales a bit from the "HA HA it's so Indycar" tripe and the belief by some that pileups, incompetent driving and incompetent race management are staples of Indycar, and solely Indycar. That is the overriding point. It happens to everyone, even the alleged "best drivers in the world" (which was stated firmly tongue-in-cheek). 

Hmm, I must admit - aside from Eurosports coverage in the very late 90's, early 00's I didn't really watch US Open Wheelers until 2012-2013, and didn't get properly in to IndyCar until 2015-ish. (Save for the first IRL game from Codemasters). I am using the "It's so IndyCar" line when trying to get people hooked on the series. Not in a "watch this for the lolz" sense, but a "this series got a real human factor. It's not being dominated by computers, engineers or a huge staffed HQ 1000 miles away".
The part-time teams, the Indy-only guys, the Dracones (or should I say: The random pay drivers Coyne suddenly signs), the random Hanleys that suddenly re-appear in the single seater world 10 year since he last raced them. It is the way motorsport used to be. It is the way it still should be. The fact that all these things adds up to certain situations isn't a mockery of the series, it's a strength.
I am quite sure that no-one that is a fairly regular in the Indy-threads here have anything other than good intentions with it. In fact, I am pretty sure the majority wishes F1 and other top series were just the same. More human, less clinical.

Maybe I am way off? I don't think I am though :)



#2873 DS27

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 10:10

Seems to have got a bit antsy in here. I'll duck out until normal harmony returns.



#2874 bargeboard

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:04

I've been travelling today and have looked in with amusement at the ire my JR Hildebrand comment has caused. Funny in that in looking at every Indy Car thread over the years it is quite commonplace to see negative comments and ill-wishes directed at most drivers on the grid. Now we know the limit: Hildebrand is off limits by me, everyone else can deride away on the drivers of their choice.


I don't care about JR either way. I found it interesting that you took one position and then took another. And then came back to complain.

#2875 red stick

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:22

Seems to have got a bit antsy in here. I'll duck out until normal harmony returns.


Way

Too

Much

Time

Between




Races . . .

#2876 maximilian

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 14:39

Seems to have got a bit antsy in here. I'll duck out until normal harmony returns.

 

giphy.gif

 

 

Imagine it with sounds from Indy.... mmmmwrrraahhh mwruahhh mwruamwruamwruahhh .... mwrrrruuuuuuuuuahhhhhh ... and they go three wide into turn 1...


Edited by maximilian, 24 April 2019 - 15:37.


#2877 maximilian

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 15:39

Conor Daly hints that there might be a chance he can run another race after Indy, and there is at least talk about him going full time.  He mentioned 6 million dollars as a full time budget.  I really hope this kid has a great Indy 500 that nets him the necessary sponsorship to return to the series for all races ASAP.



#2878 Jim Thurman

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 16:35

Hmm, I must admit - aside from Eurosports coverage in the very late 90's, early 00's I didn't really watch US Open Wheelers until 2012-2013, and didn't get properly in to IndyCar until 2015-ish. (Save for the first IRL game from Codemasters). I am using the "It's so IndyCar" line when trying to get people hooked on the series. Not in a "watch this for the lolz" sense, but a "this series got a real human factor. It's not being dominated by computers, engineers or a huge staffed HQ 1000 miles away".
The part-time teams, the Indy-only guys, the Dracones (or should I say: The random pay drivers Coyne suddenly signs), the random Hanleys that suddenly re-appear in the single seater world 10 year since he last raced them. It is the way motorsport used to be. It is the way it still should be. The fact that all these things adds up to certain situations isn't a mockery of the series, it's a strength.
I am quite sure that no-one that is a fairly regular in the Indy-threads here have anything other than good intentions with it. In fact, I am pretty sure the majority wishes F1 and other top series were just the same. More human, less clinical.

Maybe I am way off? I don't think I am though :)

 

:up:  The parts you mention above are not only "all good", they are beyond that  :)  



#2879 jonpollak

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 18:54

Seconded.

Jp

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#2880 Frood

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 13:47

Kyle Kaiser konfirmed in the #32 kar at Indy.



#2881 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 14:27

Kyle Kaiser konfirmed in the #32 kar at Indy.


Hail Caesar!

#2882 Andrew Hope

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 15:15

Always loved that name. Makes me wonder if the left side of his car will be slightly shorter and wimpier than the right, and will eventually play a role in starting World War 1.

#2883 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 15:19

I was thinking a couple of thousand years earlier.

#2884 Alan Lewis

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 15:38

Why? What have the Romans ever done for us?

#2885 djparky

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 15:54

Conor Daly hints that there might be a chance he can run another race after Indy, and there is at least talk about him going full time. He mentioned 6 million dollars as a full time budget. I really hope this kid has a great Indy 500 that nets him the necessary sponsorship to return to the series for all races ASAP.


Totally agree,even better if he's with Andretti full time

#2886 Silberpfeil

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 16:27

Always loved that name. Makes me wonder if the left side of his car will be slightly shorter and wimpier than the right, and will eventually play a role in starting World War 1.


The car also needs extravagantly upturned front wing endplates and a sharp bit on top of the airbox.

#2887 prommer

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 18:35

Why? What have the Romans ever done for us?

 

Aside from the sanitation, education, medicine and oval racing?

 

They left out that last bit in Life of Brian...  :lol:



#2888 maximilian

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 19:54

Aside from the sanitation, education, medicine and oval racing?

 

They left out that last bit in Life of Brian...  :lol:

 

According to lore, wasn't it Emperor Georgius Antonius who instituted ovals racing as mandatory, causing considerable ire among the street and road racing (since all roads lead to Rome!) community, eventually leading to a fissure that split the Empire in two, marking the end of its greatest period?


Edited by maximilian, 06 May 2019 - 20:48.


#2889 Afterburner

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 21:27

According to lore, wasn't it Emperor Georgius Antonius who instituted ovals racing as mandatory, causing considerable ire among the street and road racing (since all roads lead to Rome!) community, eventually leading to a fissure that split the Empire in two, marking the end of its greatest period?

Something like this. Everyone in the Championship of Ancient Roman Teams ran out of money, so they started recruiting drivers who were looking to pay off their alleged debt to society by doing something other than being fed to lions. Needless to say, the standard of competition went down from there and they never recovered.

#2890 Frood

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Posted 06 May 2019 - 22:45

I’m sure Toh’nee Kah’naan will remember this stuff from his earlier career. Maybe JP and Piper can jog his memory when they’re at Indy?

#2891 paulb

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 11:29

A nice piece from Miller on the influence of Penske, https://racer.com/20...merican-racing/ .



#2892 boomn

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 15:54

I like the movie they made about the Championship of Ancient Roman Teams, where Charlton Heston did that trick where he picks up a coin with the back wheel of his chariot.  



#2893 Jeeves

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 16:39

I like the movie they made about the Championship of Ancient Roman Teams, where Charlton Heston did that trick where he picks up a coin with the back wheel of his chariot.


..without losing a millisecond of speed.

#2894 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 19:41

As if there have never been first corner pileups in Indycar racing.

At Indy itself though, it helps that they start with the rows further apart than normal, and it helps massively that they don't have to brake for the first corner. That's when first corner pileups happen, because the entire field is slowing for the first corner and people misjudge things.

Cut the crap about "best drivers in the world". Getting 20+ cars, accelerating from a standing start and all arriving at the first corner at the same time with different braking points is going to lead to a lot more chaos than a similarly large field approaching a corner where they're all approaching at the same sort of speed and don't have to slow down. Part of the reason why rolling starts are usually considered safer is because everyone is already rolling, the gaps tend to be bigger and everyone is approaching turn 1 at a similar speed. With a standing start, the guys who started at the back are approaching the first corner faster than those who started at the front.

You only have to look at what sort of circuits produce first corner pileups. Places like Spa and Monaco. Places where the first turn is very tight and or street circuits. First lap incidents were quite rare at Silverstone when Copse was the first corner and the first heaving breaking was halfway round the lap at the Vale. Now while most tend to get through Abbey and Farm without problems, things get crazy at Village.

Honestly, if there's one place you wouldn't expect a lot of first corner crashes, it's the big ovals.

Going back to that 1996 US 500, the start grid crash was one of the most unlucky events to happen in and around the split. It gave the CART detractors an wholly unfair stick to beat the series with, because they had no problem doing 3-wide starts at Michigan in previous years and managed it without problems in the Marlboro 500 that year.


Hockenheim 1994

#2895 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 19:49

Hmm, I must admit - aside from Eurosports coverage in the very late 90's, early 00's I didn't really watch US Open Wheelers until 2012-2013, and didn't get properly in to IndyCar until 2015-ish. (Save for the first IRL game from Codemasters). I am using the "It's so IndyCar" line when trying to get people hooked on the series. Not in a "watch this for the lolz" sense, but a "this series got a real human factor. It's not being dominated by computers, engineers or a huge staffed HQ 1000 miles away".
The part-time teams, the Indy-only guys, the Dracones (or should I say: The random pay drivers Coyne suddenly signs), the random Hanleys that suddenly re-appear in the single seater world 10 year since he last raced them. It is the way motorsport used to be. It is the way it still should be. The fact that all these things adds up to certain situations isn't a mockery of the series, it's a strength.
I am quite sure that no-one that is a fairly regular in the Indy-threads here have anything other than good intentions with it. In fact, I am pretty sure the majority wishes F1 and other top series were just the same. More human, less clinical.

Maybe I am way off? I don't think I am though :)


Amen

#2896 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

BiggestBuddyLazierFan
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Posted 07 May 2019 - 19:51

giphy.gif


Imagine it with sounds from Indy.... mmmmwrrraahhh mwruahhh mwruamwruamwruahhh .... mwrrrruuuuuuuuuahhhhhh ... and they go three wide into turn 1...


Indyants go from right to left.

Please adjust the gif

#2897 maximilian

maximilian
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Posted 07 May 2019 - 20:01

Indyants go from right to left.

Please adjust the gif

 

Not from the grandstands!  :kiss:



#2898 Frood

Frood
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Posted 10 May 2019 - 15:52

Apparently the final piece of the puzzle is in place - Servia will be running the #77 - although rumours I’ve seen on twitter have the entry as “MotoGator Team Strange with Arrow Schmidt Peterson Motorsports”