76 replies to this topic

[gold333]

https://armoristeele...ums-gold-plated


Here's the catch:

It looks like it's actually from a 1995-FW17 - 1997 FW19. Just cut diagonally to hide the fact that it's from a high nose car.

Item for sale:


Senna at Imola on May 1st 1994


A 1997 FW19

Edited by gold333, 24 May 2018 - 08:55.

[PlayboyRacer]

Well that's interesting given there was nothing left of the nose...

[gold333]

Well that's interesting given there was nothing left of the nose...

The nose (minus wing) actually detached in one piece after the accident and tumbled across the other side of the track.

The piece they are selling is a 100% match with a FW17- FW19 due to the 2 holes and small indent. The FW16 steering arm cutout is huge, and the upper hole is face on instead of side on.

Edited by gold333, 24 May 2018 - 08:56.

[PlayboyRacer]

The nose (minus wing) actually detached in one piece after the accident and tumbled across the other side of the track

Really? Well there you go, I was totally unaware of that. I retract my previous statement if that's the case. All this time I thought it was destroyed.

[gold333]

Senna's accident is on Youtube. The nose cone tumbles towards the other side of the track.

Edited by gold333, 25 May 2018 - 23:54.

[teejay]

Abhorrent.

[Pete_f1]

Con artists

[gold333]

Here's a guide to make it clearer:


Item for sale:




1997 FW19:




1994 FW16:

[johnmhinds]

Even if it was the nose from that car why would someone have cut it up like that?

[gold333]

Even if it was the nose from that car why would someone have cut it up like that?

Maybe because "Senna hit the wall on the right side of the car". So the right side of the nose should be damaged right?

Whoever parts with $120,000 for it has obviously never even seen the accident and the nose cone tumbling away in 1 piece.

Edited by gold333, 25 May 2018 - 23:54.

[PlayboyRacer]

Whoever parts with $120,000 for it has obviously never even seen the accident and the nose cone tumbling away in 1 piece.

Your absolutely right... can't believe all these years I have never noticed that despite viewing the crash many times.

[Myrvold]

"The nose cone itself, a precious relic that a true collector would die for, comes with a triple certification letters documentation package, certifying the authenticity of it's origins and how the piece was acquired. "

I Wonder who certified it...

[DeKnyff]

Obviously, it's not a piece of Senna's car, but if it was, putting it on sale would be a case of very bad taste.

[Myrvold]

Obviously, it's not a piece of Senna's car, but if it was, putting it on sale would be a case of very bad taste.

That I don't agree with, just like war memorabilia etc. I don't see any issues with selling relics, pieces that belongs to history.

[Diablobb81]

"that a true collector would die for"

The world is full of f morons.

[PayasYouRace]

Could it be from a 1996 FW18? In 1997 they didn't have Elf fuels, they had Castrol. Has the seller painted it to look like a 1994 nosecone too?

[Peat]

"The nose cone itself, a precious relic that a true collector would die for, comes with a triple certification letters documentation package, certifying the authenticity of it's origins and how the piece was acquired. "

I Wonder who certified it...

 

The University of Phoenix?

[maverick69]

Sir Frank had the car completely crushed and disposed of.

[Risil]

I've edited a few posts in this thread. However overwhelming you think the visual evidence is, please don't come out and call people liars and frauds on this forum. This isn't the place to play judge and jury.

[Kalmake]

Surely that would be illegal? Maybe contact authorities instead?

[WilliamIV]

That car was in Italian custody until 2002 when it was released back to Frank Williams, who ironically was in Imola at the time for the San Marino Grand Prix. He ordered his people back at the factory to destroy the car right away.

 

I don't see how the Italian authorities would take custody of the car for their investigations but not pick up the nose cone (caution, photo of the scene):

Spoiler

[spoiler]

 

Either that or somebody back at the Williams factory decided to keep a piece before destroying the rest of the car. But given Frank Williams's legal problems, that would be very naughty.

 

It's in my nature to give people the benefit of the doubt and I'd like Armori Steele to explain why they think this nose cone is genuine. I think we should all write to them and ask for an explanation.

 

This is their contact page: https://armoristeele.com/en#contact-us

 

This is their email: contactus@armoristeele.com

[DeKnyff]

That I don't agree with, just like war memorabilia etc. I don't see any issues with selling relics, pieces that belongs to history.

It's not that it belongs to History, it's that it's directly and specifically related to a person's death. I'm a pro-capitalism guy, I couldn't care less if someone traded and made money with other pieces of History, just like the helmet beside the nosecone. But I think trading with the circumstances of death is unrespectul towards the deceased person and his family.

[gold333]

Could it be from a 1996 FW18? In 1997 they didn't have Elf fuels, they had Castrol. Has the seller painted it to look like a 1994 nosecone too?

Yep you are right.

On FW17, FW18, and FW19 this piece was identical.

The decals match FW17 and FW18.

FW17


FW18

[gold333]

I've edited a few posts in this thread. However overwhelming you think the visual evidence is, please don't come out and call people liars and frauds on this forum. This isn't the place to play judge and jury.

I appreciate and accept your decision.

I'll contact the relevant authorities as it's obvious the piece is not FW16.

Edited by gold333, 24 May 2018 - 09:34.

[BuddyHolly]

Obviously not from a FW16 and I hope this is pulled, looks like a scam to me and a pretty disgusting one at that.

[Henri Greuter]

Not obeying the orders of the boss to have something distroyed is not entirely new.

 

Back in the very early '60s when Andy Granatelli and his brothers had bought the remnants of the Novi team from their first owner Lew Welch, one of the things they also obtained was the driveline-less wreck of the car in which Chet Miller was killed during a practice accident on May 15th 1953. 

Andy Granatelli ordered to get rid of if since it reminded him too much about a friend.

 

The employer who was ordered to take care for the remnants to disappear and being scrapped saw an opportunity to earn a bit of money and sold off the remnants to an undisclosed source. To make a long story short, the remnants of the car eventually ended up in the hands of historian and restorer Robert `Buck` Boudeman and he and 'Zakira's Garages` eventually got the car restored back into original condition, including a running engine.

Boudeman still owned the car when he died in Sept. '14, It was not seen in public anymore since Goodwood FOS 2011.

 

Perhaps another story more in the line of this object offered for sale, just to prove that, whatever you may feel about deals like this, it isn't new.....

 

Back in 2006 a friend of me at Indy was offered a crankshaft that was told to be the one that had been in the engine of Eddie Sachs when he had his fatal acciident in the 1964 Indy 500. I know how many fans of Senna are shocked by his accident, but if you want to see a racing disaster unfold, search on youtube for it, it's terrifying.

Anyway, my friend bought the shaft though he had his hesitations about it as well as heavy doubts if actually being the real thing. I also had my doubts,knowing how much Ford had kept their engines under control back in 1964 and kept an eye on everything. A crank couldn't get out of their hands that easily, let alone that one.

Now we had tremendous connections with experts so we brought the shaft over for inspection. The mechanics instantly had a laugh when we showed it to them and the story told about it. They instantly identified the shaft as not even being from a Ford Quadcam V8 engine like Sachs had driven, it was an Offy fourcylinder crankshaft.

 

So, whatever is the true case with this piece of Senna car...... it wouldn't be the first case i have heard of in which .......

Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 May 2018 - 09:27.

[Rinehart]

Obviously it would be awful to see anyone trying to pass off crap as gold, if ever that were the case... 

 

That said, I'm not sure if I'd have too much sympathy for anyone paying stupid money for obvious shite. 

[TecnoRacing]

A disgusting bit of 'death car' memorabilia if it's genuine...

...fraudulent 'death car' memorabilia adds on another level of sleaze...

 

Rindt's shredded Lotus 72 somehow made it into 'private' hands I think...

Very dirty business...

[Myrvold]

It's not that it belongs to History, it's that it's directly and specifically related to a person's death. I'm a pro-capitalism guy, I couldn't care less if someone traded and made money with other pieces of History, just like the helmet beside the nosecone. But I think trading with the circumstances of death is unrespectul towards the deceased person and his family.

Like most war stuff, it can be directly tied to Death, or with WW2 things, it can even be related and tied to the holocaust. I have no issues with the way you, or fer312t sees this. I'm just of the opinion that because someone died, doesn't make it something that should be "hidden away" and never be sold.

However, making claims on something that's quite obviously not a genuine item, trying to pass it off as something much "bigger". That I am against. Which is why I don't want to take a risk with buying these things myself.

[Collombin]

I've got the spark plugs from the 1952 Indy pole sitter if anyone's interested. $500k or nearest offer. Guaranteed genuine.

Edited by E.B., 24 May 2018 - 12:09.

[Henri Greuter]

I've got the spark plugs from the 1952 Indy pole sitter if anyone's interested. $500k or nearest offer. Guaranteed genuine.

 

 

From the car featured in the advertisement of the company in the 1953 Indy program you mean????

Whow......

[wingwalker]

Looking at the pictures, I can't tell whether it's a scam or not, but the price tag shows clearly it's a death-memoriabla which is wrong and disgusting one way or the other, so **** all of this anyway.

[SenorSjon]

Usually, the only thing real about those things are the certificates it comes with. If it was sold of by an employee in stead of destroyed, he would never write a certificate about it,

[johnmhinds]

That car was in Italian custody until 2002 when it was released back to Frank Williams, who ironically was in Imola at the time for the San Marino Grand Prix. He ordered his people back at the factory to destroy the car right away.

I don't see how the Italian authorities would take custody of the car for their investigations but not pick up the nose cone (caution, photo of the scene):

Spoiler

[spoiler]

Either that or somebody back at the Williams factory decided to keep a piece before destroying the rest of the car. But given Frank Williams's legal problems, that would be very naughty.

It's in my nature to give people the benefit of the doubt and I'd like Armori Steele to explain why they think this nose cone is genuine. I think we should all write to them and ask for an explanation.

This is their contact page: https://armoristeele.com/en#contact-us

This is their email: contactus@armoristeele.com

Sounds like they’ve already sold it.

Hi John,

The nosecone has transferred ownership and we are no longer in possession of the piece since end of year 2017.

Thank you and best regards,

Customer Service | ARMORI STEELE

And it’s not on their website anymore.

Edited by johnmhinds, 24 May 2018 - 13:19.

[7MGTEsup]

I've got the spark plugs from the 1952 Indy pole sitter if anyone's interested. $500k or nearest offer. Guaranteed genuine.

 

I'll trade you for the camshafts out of Parnelli Jonse's 1967 ride?

[7MGTEsup]

Sounds like they’ve already sold it.

 

Ouch, someone has paid $120,000 for something worth $120.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 24 May 2018 - 14:09.

[Dr. Austin]

It's not that it belongs to History, it's that it's directly and specifically related to a person's death. I'm a pro-capitalism guy, I couldn't care less if someone traded and made money with other pieces of History, just like the helmet beside the nosecone. But I think trading with the circumstances of death is unrespectul towards the deceased person and his family.

 

I agree with all of this. 

 

Personally I find the whole thing creepy. 

[gold333]

I hope whoever bought it knows what they bought for $120,000.

Do a google image search, or heck just look at a video of the crash yourself next time.

Edit: this story should really be featured on the F1 related websites.

Edited by gold333, 25 May 2018 - 23:55.

[pdac]

I've got the spark plugs from the 1952 Indy pole sitter if anyone's interested. $500k or nearest offer. Guaranteed genuine.

 

I can go and buy myself a qualification or two and then I'll gladly verify their authenticity for a cut.

[savvy2210]

What happened to the rest of the nose cone, are they going to sell it in little pieces as well.

 

If your paying this amount you want the whole thing or what's left of the supposed nose cone. 

[Dr. Austin]

And now it's gone....................  https://armoristeele...ums-gold-plated

[Ibsey]

Sir Frank had the car completely crushed and disposed of.

 

That's my understanding, and the Senna family had the helmet crushed and disposed of after the investigations as well.

[PlayboyRacer]

That's my understanding, and the Senna family had the helmet crushed and disposed of after the investigations as well.

I would have assumed the authorities would have picked up all parts for investigation and, then when the car was released, everything was destroyed.

Which makes this whole thing rather shady to say the least.

[as65p]

And now it's gone....................  https://armoristeele...ums-gold-plated

 

Well, let's hope it's not sold, but they were forced to withdraw it.

[Myrvold]

Well, let's hope it's not sold, but they were forced to withdraw it.

If you look a bit further up on the page (which the poster of the post you quote should've seen as well), that states that they did sell it.

 

Post 34 is the one: http://forums.autosp...t/#entry8368748

Edited by Myrvold, 25 May 2018 - 08:56.

[Boing 2]

I thought Frank was being paranoid when he shredded the car, seems he had the right idea.

[LeClerc]

If you look a bit further up on the page (which the poster of the post you quote should've seen as well), that states that they did sell it.

 

Post 34 is the one: http://forums.autosp...t/#entry8368748

 

 

A fool and his money are soon parted. As they say.

[BRG]

Reminds me of the trade in holy relics in the Middle Ages.  Even though any rational person should have known that the cross of Jesus would never have survived for a millennium, they still managed to sell enough bits of it to reforest a small island. 

 

In due course, more parts of Senna's car will doubtless miraculously appear, more gullible fools will pay fortunes for them, and more sellers will make a tidy profit out of them.

[LeClerc]

Reminds me of the trade in holy relics in the Middle Ages.  Even though any rational person should have known that the cross of Jesus would never have survived for a millennium, they still managed to sell enough bits of it to reforest a small island. 

 

In due course, more parts of Senna's car will doubtless miraculously appear, more gullible fools will pay fortunes for them, and more sellers will make a tidy profit out of them.

 

If you haven't already, read "Baudolino" by Umberto Eco. It's hilarious.

[gold333]

Looking at the pictures, I can't tell whether it's a scam or not, but the price tag shows clearly it's a death-memoriabla which is wrong and disgusting one way or the other, so **** all of this anyway.

This graphic illustrates the tell tale signs well.
 

Edited by gold333, 25 May 2018 - 19:46.