85 replies to this topic

[RacingGreen]

Like most war stuff, it can be directly tied to Death, or with WW2 things, it can even be related and tied to the holocaust. I have no issues with the way you, or fer312t sees this. I'm just of the opinion that because someone died, doesn't make it something that should be "hidden away" and never be sold.

However, making claims on something that's quite obviously not a genuine item, trying to pass it off as something much "bigger". That I am against. Which is why I don't want to take a risk with buying these things myself.

 

One man's archaeology is another man's grave robbing and desecration of the dead. 

[Spillage]

Who on earth certified it? Selling it would be tasteless enough. Fabricating it is even more so.

[Dr. Austin]

That's my understanding, and the Senna family had the helmet crushed and disposed of after the investigations as well.

 

Thank God. That would be really sick (in a bad way) thing to own.

[NixxxoN]

I dont know why they had to lie, simply put damon hill's random 96 car nosecone and it would be fine

[WilliamIV]

Sounds like they’ve already sold it.

And it’s not on their website anymore.

Well I hope the buyer is happy that he has spent $120,000 on David Coulthard's nose cone.

[lamo]

https://cdn-1.motors...-tamburello.jpg

The nose came off in one piece, you can see it here. Sorry crash picture.

[ANF]

The same company has been trying to sell it on Ebay too.
https://www.ebay.com...h-/273060005154
"This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available."

"Alleged Crashed Nose Cone Piece"

"Relic was acquired and sold by an engineer that allegedly worked in Senna's team"
"FOUR Letters of authenticity from past owners"
"The nose cone was exposed at the 2015 Austin, TX Grand Prix at the Ayrton Senna Museum at the home of the USGP Circuit of the Americas"
"Presented in a homage to Ayrton Senna in 2017 by ARMORI STEELE near the Gilles Villeneuve Circuit"

https://i.ebayimg.co...1pV/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.co...1pX/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.co...1pZ/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.co...1pb/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.co...1pc/s-l1600.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.co...1vS/s-l1600.jpg

[PedroDiCasttro]

Anyone here has the means of getting into contact with Williams or the Senna Institute?

 

This looks like something that needs a serious investigation.

[gold333]

Anyone here has the means of getting into contact with Williams or the Senna Institute?

 

This looks like something that needs a serious investigation.

 

I believe some people at the F1 Technical forum were trying to get in touch with the Senna estate. I've contacted Williams.

This is a Google cache of the auction:

https://webcache.goo...ums-gold-plated

 

 

 

Armori Steele claims a very thorough verification and certification process;

https://armoristeele...-authentics-asa


But when simply looking at nose cone pictures side by side reveals the truth, and taking the $120,000 auction price into account, the apparent mendacious nature of this company becomes thought provoking.

@ANF: The ebay ad is from February. The word "alleged" does not appear in the auction itself linked in the Google cache above. The auction itself makes it quite clear that this is the very nose cone from Imola 1994.

 

Edited by gold333, 26 May 2018 - 02:14.

[PlayboyRacer]

I can see this becoming quite a serious issue very fast. The response from Williams will be interesting.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 26 May 2018 - 02:26.

[johnmhinds]

Clarification email that they've sent out:

 

 

Hey guys,

 

The Senna nose cone issue has been brought to my attention by our team, and I just want to clarify and let you guys rest assured that our company did NOT sell the Senna piece after speaking with the WILLIAMS Team personally. 

 

Our company had acquired the piece from a legitimate private collector that had it exposed at the Official US Grand Prix museum, thinking it was coming from a sure source.

 

We had also spoken directly to Robert Dunlop from Final Lap, the original provider of the nose cone, whom indicated to our team that his company had initially acquired the Senna nose cone from 2 engineers that were working for Williams at the time. 

 

However, as mentioned, after the un-authenticity of the piece has been brought to our attention by the Williams Team, we have transferred ownership of the nose cone back to it's previous owner.

 

We at ARMORI STEELE are dedicated to offering only authentic memorabilia and are thankful that the Williams Team were able to clarify us on the true origins of this piece of memorabilia. 

 

The case has been closed since end of 2017.

 

But since we personally have nothing to hide, and as a show of good faith, I am hereby attaching the 3 letters of authenticity that had initially come with the nose cone when it was acquired by our team.

 

Hopefully this helps to clarify the issue of this nose cone for you guys.

 

All the best guys,

 

Original letter 1:

 

Original Letter 2:

 

Letter #3:

---

Andy Chung | ARMORI STEELE

Managing Partner & Co-Founder

 

 

[midgrid]

Aryton Senna

[PayasYouRace]

I mean, what do those letters mean if a bunch of enthusiasts on the internet can identify which car it actually came from?

[Henri Greuter]

I mean, what do those letters mean if a bunch of enthusiasts on the internet can identify which car it actually came from?

 

 

Be careful.

 

I know a case in which the sister forum (Nostalgia) was involved and some of the members over there providing enough approval that a story told since 1964 was definitely not true, unlike what a number of publications released since 1964 had told.

When a writer finally put out a book in which these facts also appeared he claimed to have searched the Internet as a source of info as well but regarded it, including some that was put out on several forums as a bunch of what if speculations.

This despite the fact that our friends at Nostalgia had proven what he told in his book some years before already before his book came out

 

So far for how internet info, and they who put that info out on the internet, can be regarded by some.....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 26 May 2018 - 10:19.

[PayasYouRace]

Be careful.
 
I know a case in which the sister forum (Nostalgia) was involved and some of the members over there providing enough approval that a story told since 1964 was definitely not true, unlike what a number of publications released since 1964 had told.
When a writer finally put out a book in which these facts also appeared he claimed to have searched the Internet as a source of info as well but regarded it, including some that was put out on several forums as a bunch of what if speculations.
This despite the fact that our friends at Nostalgia had proven what he told in his book some years before already before his book came out
 
So far for how internet info, and they who put that info out on the internet, can be regarded by some.....

Your cryptic post aside, it’s possible to visually identify that the alleged Senna nosecone actually comes from a later Williams, one which Ayrton never drove, rather than an FW16.

[Henri Greuter]

Your cryptic post aside, it’s possible to visually identify that the alleged Senna nosecone actually comes from a later Williams, one which Ayrton never drove, rather than an FW16.

 

" Thank you" 

[PayasYouRace]

" Thank you"

You’re welcome?

[gold333]

Armori Steele details a very thorough verification and certification process at:

https://armoristeele...-authentics-asa

Including:

"VERIFICATION PROCESS

We scrutinize, examine and inspect each sports piece through a thorough 3-steps verification process.

Item based-comparables: Similar to a real estate appraisal, we compare characteristics that are similar to a subject asset whose values are being sought.
Third-party authenticators: We always prioritize the acquisition of sports memorabilia that are authenticated by Beckett Grading Services, Frameworth, JSA James Spence Authentication, PSA/DNA Professional Sports Authenticator, Steiner Sports, Tristar Authentics, OA Online Authentics, Upper Deck Authenticated and other well respected third-party authenticators"



Yet a 12 year old could verify the nose cone as not belonging to an FW16 but rather an FW18 in around 10 minutes of Google image searching.

The mismatch is evident from as rudimentary an analysis as public domain image comparison.

Nothing forensic, nothing requiring specialist knowledge.

Yet still that verification process didn't exclude exhibiting the auction at the 2017 Sports Art Unveiling at Montreals Patrick Mikhail gallery.



And posting it for sale online for $120,000.

I wonder how many other items sold by Armori Steele have benefitted from that verification and certification process.

[Myrvold]

So, since someone here brought it up, they've been in contact with Williams, got the official "not authentic" on the piece and transferred it back to the previous owner?
Or is this something they randomly did themselves? Then why did they first answer that it was sold?

This reminds me of a time in Norway on a Norwegian F1 forum when we found an article in a newspaper. It was a long interview with Michael Schumacher. It seemed fine, but when we (as F1 geeks) studied the details, we knew he things were wrong.
After contacting the newspaper. Doing som investigation work, we managed to prove it being faked.
That got the ball rolling. And a quite known journalist was busted having faked numerous of interviews with stars over a period of 30 years. Ranging from Brad Pitt, Oprah to Schumacher.
He had simply been sitting at home. Reading other interviews and writing a new "interview" all by himself.

Edited by Myrvold, 26 May 2018 - 11:46.

[Henri Greuter]

You’re welcome?

 

 

on the contrary ......

[TecnoRacing]

Sounds like Armori Steele was lazy and didn't do their due diligence, rather than actively being fraudulent...

 

Wonder what Bob Dunlop/Final Lap Collection's excuse is?

[gold333]

Sounds like Armori Steele was lazy and didn't do their due diligence, rather than actively being fraudulent...
 
Wonder what Bob Dunlop/Final Lap Collection's excuse is?

Armori Steele's core business is authenticity in sports memorabilia. That's the only thing they do.


The pinnacle position of the item in the world of motor sports, the stated auction price and the ease with which its authenticity could be disproved is throught provoking.

[lamo]

Final lap were also involved recently in selling another Senna Imola car part. The brake cover flap just above the front nose. The exact same story, they sold it then years later someone tried to re-sell it and got shot down by internet eagle eyed folk. The Rothmans paint job was slightly off to be from the Imola car. You could tell by how it intercepted a screw hole.

[lamo]

So, since someone here brought it up, they've been in contact with Williams, got the official "not authentic" on the piece and transferred it back to the previous owner?
Or is this something they randomly did themselves? Then why did they first answer that it was sold?

This reminds me of a time in Norway on a Norwegian F1 forum when we found an article in a newspaper. It was a long interview with Michael Schumacher. It seemed fine, but when we (as F1 geeks) studied the details, we knew he things were wrong.
After contacting the newspaper. Doing som investigation work, we managed to prove it being faked.
That got the ball rolling. And a quite known journalist was busted having faked numerous of interviews with stars over a period of 30 years. Ranging from Brad Pitt, Oprah to Schumacher.
He had simply been sitting at home. Reading other interviews and writing a new "interview" all by himself.

To save face, they don’t want to unessearily tell a potential customer a fake got through there poor verification process. It easier to just say, sold.

[PayasYouRace]

on the contrary ......

I’m sorry Henri but this is one of those times that I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

The component is easily identified, so something has gone wrong somewhere.

[wingwalker]

 

This graphic illustrates the tell tale signs well.
 

 

 

Yeah, I hope I was really tired when I wrote the previous post, it clearly wasn't what it was advertised as. Lack of the hole for the wishbone is a clear give away.

[Risil]

I've removed some defamatory posts. Please don't use this forum as a platform to make accusations like this.

[Otaku]

What about these? https://bidlive.grah...9f-b29700e55f7c

 

Are they real? I have absolutely no intention of buying it (nor have the money lol), I'm just curious.

[STIGG]

I was thinking about this thread yesterday. In the latest FFS podcast episode, DC talks about being contacted by someone asking him to sign the helmet he borrowed from Schumacher at Monaco in 1996. The only problem was that the original helmet was still in his possession.

[ensign14]

What about these? https://bidlive.grah...9f-b29700e55f7c

 

Are they real? I have absolutely no intention of buying it (nor have the money lol), I'm just curious.

Graham Budd is a specialist in sport and, while there is always the chance of fakery (especially with something non-bespoke), I'd've expected them to have a chain of provenance.

[George Costanza]

Didn't Frank Williams destroy the cars after Imola?

[Victor]

Why not dig up Senna’s grave and auction off his bones? That would fetch a nice sum.

[AndyPerry]

Didn't Frank Williams destroy the cars after Imola?

THE car, yes.

[Myrvold]

Graham Budd is a specialist in sport and, while there is always the chance of fakery (especially with something non-bespoke), I'd've expected them to have a chain of provenance.

 

There is some fun items there. I especially liked this one

[Analog]

There is some fun items there. I especially liked this one

 

 

Probably for his little brother?

[BRG]

Why not dig up Senna’s grave and auction off his bones? That would fetch a nice sum.

That was normal medieval practice, judging from all the religious relics of saints that were (and still are) floating about.  And Ayrton is half-way to becoming a saint...