56 replies to this topic

[kapow]

Mark Webber
Nico Rosberg
Felipe Massa
Jenson Button
Paul di Resta
Adrian Sutil
Jean-Eric Vergne
Esteban Gutierrez
Pastor Maldonado
Jules Bianchi
Charles Pic
Heikki Kovalainen
Giedo van der Garde
Max Chilton
Daniil Kvyat
Kamui Kobayashi
Andre Lotterer
Alex Rossi
Felipe Nasr
Roberto Merhi
Will Stevens
Rio Haryanto
Pascal Wehrlein
Jolyon Palmer
Antonio Giovinazzi

Only 9 drivers remain from 2013.

25 no longer with an F1 drive. That's a bigger turnover than I would have guessed.

Any of those (ignoring those who retired and departed us) who you think didn't get a fair chance or could still do a job?

One thing I'm seeing is quite a few drivers who had no real business being in F1.

Edited by kapow, 31 May 2018 - 20:24.

[noikeee]

Been so long I don't even have any memories of Verne and Litterer anymore.

[PayasYouRace]

Been so long I don't even have any memories of Verne and Litterer anymore.

I remember Litterer. Short career but an impressive amount of debris left on track.

[PiperPa42]

A lot of the drivers on the list got to F1 and fell through. I would've liked to see Kamui stay longer, but that would've meant we wouldn't have seen him excel in the Toyota LMP1

 

Been so long I don't even have any memories of Verne and Litterer anymore.

Isn't Jean-Eric Verne a great-great-grandson of Jules?

[kapow]

Been so long I don't even have any memories of Verne and Litterer anymore.

Autocorrect 🙄🙃

[Victor_RO]

Serious answer - IMHO the two still-active guys from that list who are making the biggest impact where they are nowadays are JEV (who's about to get an utterly dominant title in FE) and Rossi (in the running for the Indycar title, only 2 points behind P1, and the star drive at Indy, 32nd to 4th).

 

Then again, the question about some of these guys always begs. Would they have been good enough in better machinery in F1? Or are they far better suited in the series they are now? Or... would a settling-in period to actually build up to those hypothetical great results be too long for an impatient F1 team that demands results instantly? Rossi in Indycar is a great example, he had a somewhat fortuitous win at Indy in 2016 on fuel mileage and was a bit anonymous for the rest of the season, but he started to hit his stride through the second half of last season and he's started this year as a proper leading contender. I don't think a F1 team would have waited for damn-near 3 seasons, especially if someone with more money came a-knockin'.

[kapow]

Serious answer - IMHO the two still-active guys from that list who are making the biggest impact where they are nowadays are JEV (who's about to get an utterly dominant title in FE) and Rossi (in the running for the Indycar title, only 2 points behind P1, and the star drive at Indy, 32nd to 4th).

Then again, the question about some of these guys always begs. Would they have been good enough in better machinery in F1? Or are they far better suited in the series they are now? Or... would a settling-in period to actually build up to those hypothetical great results be too long for an impatient F1 team that demands results instantly? Rossi in Indycar is a great example, he had a somewhat fortuitous win at Indy in 2016 on fuel mileage and was a bit anonymous for the rest of the season, but he started to hit his stride through the second half of last season and he's started this year as a proper leading contender. I don't think a F1 team would have waited for damn-near 3 seasons, especially if someone with more money came a-knockin'.

I watch every IndyCar race and Rossi is really starting to look like the real deal. It's hard to judge though. As you say, how much of their success or otherwise in F1 is due to the car.

[Laster]

Both Rossi and Wehrlein (Jules Bianchi also) I would have liked to seen more of in F1. Preferably with a midfield team like Force India rather than picking up what scraps there were at the back. Neither really got much of a chance to compete against anyone proven. It did take Rossi a couple years to get up to speed in indycar, but now he's looking strong at every race they go too, and Wehrlein had some stand out moments in cars that could only get near the points on the best of days, and only if the driver was capable of delivering.

 

The rest I felt were given enough of a chance across a season or two to show something, or had enough time against a teammate that is at the very least a solid F1 driver. (Then there are also those who are simply retired having finished their F1 career.)

[jimjimjeroo]

Not comfortable with Jules on that list

[NixxxoN]

Autocorrect

Still "Filipe" and "Mehri" to fix

Edited by NixxxoN, 31 May 2018 - 20:23.

[kapow]

Still "Filipe" and "Mehri" to fix

Stupid phone 😫 and stupid fingers!

Edited by kapow, 31 May 2018 - 20:25.

[NixxxoN]

Stupid phone and stupid fingers!

lol I know
I also hate to type with the phone

[mdaclarke]

The 3 I think didn't get a fair crack of the whip

 

1.  Kamui Kobayshi

2.  Felipe Nasr

3.  Andre Lotterer

[McLaren]

Would like to have seen the following from that list in F1 for longer:

 

Kamui Kobayashi

Jean-Eric Vergne

Jules Bianchi obviously .. : (

Pascal Wehrlein

Alex Rossi

Edited by McLaren, 31 May 2018 - 21:23.

[Loosenut]

Kamui Kobayashi was great fun, I really wish he was still around.

[Nathan]

Rossi and Kobayashi for me.

[kapow]

The 3 I think didn't get a fair crack of the whip

1. Kamui Kobayshi
2. Felipe Nasr
3. Andre Lotterer

I didn't think anyone would say Nasr!

[Nonesuch]

Nice list! Something similar occured to me as I was browsing through some reuslts from 2012 - quite a lot of names I had almost forgotten.

 

Kamui Kobayashi driving a Ferrari at Fiorano. That was the day!

 

They should have just dumped Massa two years early and had Kamui race for them. Why the heck not! Great guy - Le Mans lap record holder... and those Japanese fans! Imagine Kamui in a Ferrari at Suzuka. The place would go crazy. Even more so than usual.

 

 

Anyway, André Lotterer obviously held his own in Super Formula, but I can't help but feel his career sort of stalled. He was this big talent, master-of-all in the making ... and then just sort of stopped improving. Quite odd. Still, it would have been nice to see a bit more of him in F1, even if it was just seeing out the rest of the season.

 

Haryanto and Rossi are loses to F1 because of their country of origin. Combined, Indonesia and the United States are home to over half a billion people. But that obviously only appeals to the marketing guys; the results on track are of more immediate concern.

Edited by Nonesuch, 31 May 2018 - 21:57.

[PayasYouRace]

Haryanto and Rossi also represent opposite ends of the skill spectrum.

[Nonesuch]

Haryanto and Rossi also represent opposite ends of the skill spectrum.

 

There are certainly significant differences.  Haryanto wasn't quite good enough for a more permanent role at the back of the F1 grid, but it wasn't outright terrible. Given his road to F1, and Indonesia's motorsport history, it was a fairly decent attempt.

 

I'm not sure Rossi is on any end of a skill spectrum, but he's doing very well this year in Indycar, no question about that. It's high time for him to finally add another title to that Formula BMW one.

[Sterzo]

Most of the list simply reflects the pyramid shaped pool of talent. If you draw a series of bands across the pyramid, you have three or so at the top in the pointy bit of F1, but perhaps a hundred worthy of the bottom band of F1, and they can't all get in at once. Hence people coming and going.

 

And where do they all go to? Well, Formula E, Indycars and the many forms of endurance racing, where some of them will be champions.

[mdaclarke]

I didn't think anyone would say Nasr!

 

Scored 29 points to Ericsson's 9 points and still got dropped.  I felt he should have got the Williams drive last year instead of Stroll or Massa or the Renault drive instead of Palmer

Edited by mdaclarke, 31 May 2018 - 22:14.

[BillBald]

Serious answer - IMHO the two still-active guys from that list who are making the biggest impact where they are nowadays are JEV (who's about to get an utterly dominant title in FE) and Rossi (in the running for the Indycar title, only 2 points behind P1, and the star drive at Indy, 32nd to 4th).

 

 

 

Jenson Button is currently leading the Japanese Super GT championship.

 

Not sure how strong the opposition is.

[Flyhigh]

A lot of names of that list would still be in F1, if F1 had not become for over a third of the grid a pay to drive series. 

Edited by Flyhigh, 01 June 2018 - 01:12.

[KWSN - DSM]

I was expecting to find Buemi on the list, and find he had his last F1 race in 2011!! And he is still only 29 years old.

 

[Afterburner]

A lot of names of that list would still be in F1, if F1 had not become for over a third of the grid a pay to drive series.

Or if any of the other seats were actually capable of recording wins. You think Rossi, Button, and Vergne want to putt around at the back of a field in a relative crapwagon making up the numbers when they can be competing against better drivers in equal equipment winning races and titles? F&$k no.

Edited by Afterburner, 01 June 2018 - 04:14.

[RacingGreen]

Most of the drivers on your list had either F1 careers proportional to their talent or have been able to employ their talents elsewhere, however I would like to see Antonio Giovinazzi get another chance.

[Victor_RO]

Jenson Button is currently leading the Japanese Super GT championship.

 

Not sure how strong the opposition is.

 

Half the grid in GT500 has been there for years and is basically made up of drivers who've specialized so heavily in this series that they're very tough to beat. Jenson's doing extremely well for a "rookie" in that series. I didn't count him in though with JEV and Rossi because of his previous success in F1.

[sopa]

Apart from those, who retired on their own accord or got old... Well, some of them were very underwhelming on F1 level, others were decent midfield drivers and if the stars aligned, could have had a fine midfield career for a while and till now. But that's the way it is. Not everyone can fit in. I don't think we missed out on a superstar though.

Edited by sopa, 01 June 2018 - 08:14.

[Anderis]

Scored 29 points to Ericsson's 9 points and still got dropped.  I felt he should have got the Williams drive last year instead of Stroll or Massa or the Renault drive instead of Palmer

27 out of these 29 points were scored in 2015, though, and he wasn't dropped after 2015 but after 2016 where he didn't look all that convincing against Ericsson.

[Peat]

Half the grid in GT500 has been there for years and is basically made up of drivers who've specialized so heavily in this series that they're very tough to beat. 

 

That goes for IndyCar too. Rossi entered at a time of DW12 specialists, even with the increased DF, and made it to the top(ish). Now they are in a slight period of re-learning and he is firmly established as a leading light. 

[SenorSjon]

I remember Litterer. Short career but an impressive amount of debris left on track.

 

Russel is coming, he is the real Litterer.

[Sterzo]

A lot of names of that list would still be in F1, if F1 had not become for over a third of the grid a pay to drive series. 

Oh really? Can you list them?

[Fisico54]

A lot of names of that list would still be in F1, if F1 had not become for over a third of the grid a pay to drive series.

Name the 7 please?

[Nonesuch]

Name the 7 please?

 

The list sometimes made is somewhat like this - and I don't note this in agreement, but merely to gather the names:

 

Ericsson - his backers own part of the team.

Stroll - his dad is funding the team, denied to be important by Williams.

Sirotkin - has wealthy backers, denied to be important by Williams.

Alonso - according to Claire Williams.

LeClerc - seat arranged by Ferrari.

Ocon - seat arranged by Mercedes.

Edited by Nonesuch, 01 June 2018 - 13:33.

[messy]

There are certainly significant differences.  Haryanto wasn't quite good enough for a more permanent role at the back of the F1 grid, but it wasn't outright terrible. Given his road to F1, and Indonesia's motorsport history, it was a fairly decent attempt.
 
I'm not sure Rossi is on any end of a skill spectrum, but he's doing very well this year in Indycar, no question about that. It's high time for him to finally add another title to that Formula BMW one.

Haryanto was weird. He could be quite quick over a single quali lap, but watch his races. He was pathetic. He used to drop to the back like a stone and then cruise around way adrift of the pack, often while Wehrlein fought for his life in lower midfield.

I can see why he got binned.

[Flyhigh]

Oh really? Can you list them?

You can pick them...Nasr, Vergne, Kobayashe, etc.    Ericsson, Stroll, Sirotkin, Hartley, have no bunsiness being in F1 over several names on that lists... to me not even someone like Grosjean makes sense. The guy has been crashing and actling like a teenager ever since joining F1. Almost half of the grid is on F1 due to backing and other interest. 

[Fisico54]

The list sometimes made is somewhat like this - and I don't note this in agreement, but merely to gather the names:

Ericsson - his backers own part of the team.
Stroll - his dad is funding the team, denied to be important by Williams.
Sirotkin - has wealthy backers, denied to be important by Williams.
Alonso - according to Claire Williams.
LeClerc - seat arranged by Ferrari.
Ocon - seat arranged by Mercedes.

So 3 in reality

[Fisico54]

You can pick them...Nasr, Vergne, Kobayashe, etc. Ericsson, Stroll, Sirotkin, Hartley, have no bunsiness being in F1 over several names on that lists... to me not even someone like Grosjean makes sense. The guy has been crashing and actling like a teenager ever since joining F1. Almost half of the grid is on F1 due to backing and other interest.

That's not what you said. You said over a 1/3 of the grid were paydrivers taking more deserving drivers places from that list. So 7 current f1 drivers

[proviz]

So 3 in reality

 

This is crystal clear. Three out-and-out paydrivers: Ericsson, Stroll and Sirotkin. The last two may yet prove their worth on merit though.

[lustigson]

So 3 in reality

 

One could argue that all Red Bull drivers are pay drivers. Pérez brings sponsorship, as does Alonso. So that's 7 already, without mentioning usual suspects Stroll, Sirotkin, and Ericsson. 

[PayasYouRace]

One could argue that all Red Bull drivers are pay drivers.

Only when they’re driving for other teams with their Red Bull backing, as it usually is in the lower formulae. No way you could argue that when they’re driving for Red Bull’s own team.

[Myrvold]

Ericsson - his backers own part of the team.

Nono. The owners(that owns the entire team - Longbow that is) have, together with some individuals funded his career.

You got the "part of" and "fully" mixed up ;-)

[William Hunt]

Apart from the drivers who retired from motorsport or who lost their lives (Bianchi whom I was a fan of, I still miss him a lot) these are the drivers who imho deserved to stay longer in F1 and would have stayed if we had as many teams as in the '80s or '90s:

- Jean-Eric Vergne: was not that much slower as Ricciardo when they were teammates and was quicker on a wet track as Daniel, currently dominating Formula E: I've always rated him highly. Red Bull should have taken him back instead of Brendon Hartley

- Felipe Nasr: talented driver but mentally not that strong, very underrated, should have been in the Williams instead of Stroll imho, outscored Ericsson with a big margin. Nasr was fenomenal in his final F1 race in the rain at Interlagos. Reminded me of a young Massa.

- Paul di Resta: was driving pretty good in the Force India, received a lot of criticism on this forum for his lack of charisma but his driving was always solid

- Kamui Kobayashi: well who doesn't love Kamui? Always on the attack and such a nice fellow and oh he's great at making sushi which is a plus in my book

- Pascal Wehrlein: very quick driver, said to have had a cocky attitude in his DTM days in 2013-2015, he could have won the F3 title in 2013 (instead of Marciello) if Mercedes had not brought him to DTM after just 3 races: he did win the DTM title in 2015. Maybe we'll see him in a Toro Rosso later this season

- Alexander Rossi: was outclassed by Vandoorne in GP2 but had a very solid F1 debut with Marussia, currently one of the best IndyCar drivers, Haas should have picked him instead of Guttiérrez

- Charles Pic: maybe he deserved a chance in a midfield team, was certainly better as Guido van der Garde

Antonio Giovinazzi will be in F1 next year I think (and hope)

Daniel Kvyat had enough chances imho but he is still young, maybe we still will see him back one day

 

Of the drivers above I would like especially Vergne and Nasr (unfairly dumped by Sauber) back.

Edited by William Hunt, 02 June 2018 - 00:23.

[tmekt]

The list sometimes made is somewhat like this - and I don't note this in agreement, but merely to gather the names:

Ericsson - his backers own part of the team.
Stroll - his dad is funding the team, denied to be important by Williams.
Sirotkin - has wealthy backers, denied to be important by Williams.
Alonso - according to Claire Williams.
LeClerc - seat arranged by Ferrari.
Ocon - seat arranged by Mercedes.

By those standards nearly all of them are or have been pay drivers.

[Alfisti]

Verne the best on the list by a MILE. Cannot believe some of the mullets getting g a gig over the past few years and he doesn't have a ride. Riccardo got the better of him in the end but Jesus h, hard marker that. He belongs on the grid.

[Alfisti]

Can anyone name one legit reason grosean has a seat and jev doesn't? Is grosean backed by big money?

[v@sh]

Verne the best on the list by a MILE. Cannot believe some of the mullets getting g a gig over the past few years and he doesn't have a ride. Riccardo got the better of him in the end but Jesus h, hard marker that. He belongs on the grid.

 

I think Vergne is a pretty good driver but it just didn't translate when he was in F1 as many expected included Dr Marko. If you looked at the team-mate battle closely, Ricciardo had the better of him by a fair margin. It's a big misconception IMO and only 2012 was Vergne and Ricciardo were relatively close but given that Vergne's majority of points came in mixed conditions and that was where Vergne was the better driver.

 

In their time together, Vergne had the worse qualifying battle H2H with all the team-mates on the grid as well as the largest average qualifying gap. Why would you want to promote a driver to the main team when he was half a second behind in qualifying?

 

It is partly the reason why Kvyat got demoted to TR because the gap in outright pace was getting too big again (and with his mistakes in races early on) along with trying to keep Verstappen in.

 

If Vergne was as good as people keep saying, he would have either being picked up by another team or stayed at Ferrari afterwards. RBR have ALL the data on their drivers and other teams can do their own homework.

[Zava]

Vergne is out only because of really bad timing. Had red bull knew Vettel is leaving before they needed to make room for Verstappen in the junior team, Vergne would've started 2015 as a RBR driver.

Edited by Zava, 04 June 2018 - 06:39.

[AlexS]

Like other said Vergne deserved to continue in F1.