84 replies to this topic

[OO7]

"Formula 1 track designer Hermann Tilke says the championship's push to add more grands prix on city circuits opens the door for more exciting track layouts in the future."

 

"We are not building [permanent] tracks only for the high professional drivers, we are also building tracks for all kind of drivers,"

 

"This means amateur drivers, it means a driver who is 60 years old and wishes to drive some kind of racing car or high-performance car. All these people have to be safe [on permanent tracks], it is not only F1."

 

"But as you see in Baku - that is a track built only for professional drivers.  You could never have old drivers or young drivers on this track, and that makes a difference."

 

 

Yes there are compromises when designing and building a purpose built circuit, however a street circuit is even more compromised.  While I think Baku is a good 'street circuit', it's hardly a shining example of the best type of circuit in the World.

[Risil]

Those are some strange comments! Where did he say them?

[Seanspeed]

Old or amateur drivers could certainly drive or race at Baku.  The only reason they dont is because it's not open for them to do so.  Street tracks do have a bit of extra risk with closer barriers and sometimes extra bumps and whatnot, but any driver that knows how to drive within themselves can handle it.  Not like permanent circuits dont have their own risks - like typically higher speeds and longer, faster corners.  

 

If you can stick old and amateur drivers in the Nurburgring 24 Hours, barreling around the narrow, perilous Nordscheife in the dark of night, they can handle getting around freakin Baku. 

Edited by Seanspeed, 05 June 2018 - 13:10.

[Peat]

I can't get my head around the FIA categorisation of racetracks leading to the bastardisation of the fabled permanent tracks yet they are happy to sign off places like Baku & Sochi. 

[Laster]

Looking through his record of tracks he designed, I can't help but notice all the street tracks Tilke helped design (bar Baku which at least provides some mad races) have been utter crap, while his hit rate with purpose built circuits have been far more successful. Really it sounds like he's talking out of his arse with these comments.

Edited by Laster, 05 June 2018 - 13:08.

[cheekybru]

None of those comments make any sense the guy is awful

[NixxxoN]

What tilke should do is quit the business and go somewhere else, and let others use his imagination because he ran out of it long ago.

[Jon83]

There's plenty already.

[johnmhinds]

What is the source for those comments? What is the context?

[Kershy]

F1 should be 3/4 Fully dedicated racing circuit and 1/4 street tracks as a one off every once in a while.

[LuluBerlu]

I'm tired of all those comments.

First because it is the wrong message you send to the world, and everyday now, people does not watch but they know that it is boring.

Is this season boring ? Really ?
And last year ? Until the Singapour-Malaysia drama ?
Or it is just because Merc is not alone anymore ?

And, by the way, just a streetrace won't solve anything of their "problem" (Monaco, Australia...)

And if they want street race, change the car first, aero is not so critical and the length of these cars need to be reduce. A lot things (again!!!) to change on the car.

[BCM]

 

 

"But as you see in Baku - that is a track built only for professional drivers.  You could never have old drivers or young drivers on this track, and that makes a difference."

 

 

 

He's lost his marbles. Back when Adelaide was still on the calendar they regularly ran celebrity races on a race weekend. Some of the celebrities had never even driven a car before they "competed"!

[OO7]

Those are some strange comments! Where did he say them?

Risil, it was apparently at an F.I.A Sport Conference in the Philippines.  Here is a link to the full article: https://www.eurospor...658/story.shtml

[OO7]

F1 should be 3/4 Fully dedicated racing circuit and 1/4 street tracks as a one off every once in a while.

I agree Kershy.  I was thinking about this the other day and came up with a figure of 1/5 to 1/4 for street circuits.

[Risil]

So Tilke is trying to explain to us that in fact all those safety improvements to F1 tracks weren't for F1's benefit at all, but instead for ageing amateur drivers who want to drive a GT3 at speeds way beyond their capabilities.

 

Well, that is interesting. Maybe they should hold the VLN 24 Hours in Abu Dhabi and F1's season finale at the Nordschleife.

[OO7]

I understand what Tilke trying to say, but he's still completely wrong.  The F.I.A tend give street circuits a little more wiggle room with regards to safety, however the confines of a city dramatically reduce options for circuit layout anyway.

[Risil]

It's like he's rewriting history just because for commercial reasons F1 has decided track safety isn't as important as it used to be.

[ensign14]

Risil, it was apparently at an F.I.A Sport Conference in the Philippines. 

 

They never have these things in Wolverhampton.

[KWSN - DSM]

We keep being told of 'xyz is in F1's DNA' - And then they come up with something like that.

 

F1 need real race tracks, where cars can overtake each other, not more confined tracks where the racing is glamorous backdrops of high rises, which add nothing to F1. Dump Baku and Singapore, do not add Miami, Hanoi and Copenhagen.

 

[Dennista]

How has this man still kept his job? I remember barking about him back in 2003. Nepotism at its finest.

Edited by Dennista, 05 June 2018 - 14:52.

[Dr. Austin]

Great! More fantastic races like this year's Monaco! Yea!

[KWSN - DSM]

Great! More fantastic races like this year's Monaco! Yea!

 

Monaco is Hors Catégorie, no need to change anything. Monaco and Montreal only two street tracks F1 need.

 

[Jon83]

Tilke isn't best for F1's future, that's for sure.

[johnmhinds]

Risil, it was apparently at an F.I.A Sport Conference in the Philippines.  Here is a link to the full article: https://www.eurospor...658/story.shtml

His comments make sense in that context I guess.

 

He is just saying that the FIA regulations on things minimum track widths and runoffs for dedicated race tracks that have to cater to more kinds of racing make them worse for F1 racing, and street tracks that have less of those restrictions allow for better designs.

Edited by johnmhinds, 05 June 2018 - 15:24.

[Dr. Austin]

I guess no one remembers what happened to champcar when they abandoned the events they were built upon and went to mostly street races.  This might illustrate how out of touch Tilke is.

 

F1 need real race tracks, where cars can overtake each other, not more confined tracks where the racing is glamorous backdrops of high rises, which add nothing to F1. Dump Baku and Singapore, do not add Miami, Hanoi and Copenhagen.

 

Baku is a nice, clean looking circuit, smooth and wide, with spectacular architecture.  Every so often we need break from tracks that have miles of asphalt run off and painted gravel. Baku is real, which might be a problem in an increasingly fake sport.

 

Baku is the one track where overtaking is a possibility every lap. That front straight is something like a mile long, and with DRS the closing rate is terrifying. You would see even more passing here if the drivers were not allowed to swerve around and block the crap out of each other.  They complain about the circuit being dangerous and then spend most of the race crashing into each other. I can't recall any  other Grand  Prix being red flagged because the drivers made so much debris, but Baku certainly has, The place baffles the drivers so much that you have multiple world champions colliding on purpose behind the pace car, others crashing by themselves under a full course yellow, and teammates taking each other out on the straight. Might be stupid and expensive, but it was sure a lot more fun than this year's Monaco.

 

Again, the problem with overtaking is not created by the tracks. It's created by cars that race poorly coupled with the culture of unlimited chopping, blocking and swerving. The cars are also so safe the drivers the drivers get so careless they crash under yellow flag, and you can only look to the year Verstappen is having to see there is no reason for the drivers to fear anything except maybe each other. 

Edited by Dr. Austin, 05 June 2018 - 15:49.

[Dr. Austin]

Monaco is Hors Catégorie, no need to change anything. 

 

 

 

Sure. We can afford one race like that a year. It's just a shame it's hard to stay awake for the supposed "crown jewel."

 

Contrast the race we had in Formula One's "pinnacle" to Indycar's pinnacle the same day and it's pretty stark. People are complaining that Indianapolis only had 45 lead changes over the course of 500 miles, but that's probably 10 times what F1 has for an entire season. The only problem with watching Indycar is that it spoils you from appreciating hi tech parades.

[Seanspeed]

The only problem with watching Indycar is that it spoils you from appreciating hi tech parades.

Speak for yourself there man.  

[Cornholio]

To be honest all I care about is having a good variety of tracks with different characteristics making up the calendar as a whole. I like having Monaco on the calendar, wouldn't want a series full of tracks like that, Baku is interesting and fairly unique, I like having Monza on the track for it's unique ultra high speed nature and I miss the old Hockenheim for the same reason. I love Suzuka too and the challenge it represents, although I even see that track coming under some mild criticism occasionally because it doesn't produce an overtaking-fest. A handful of characterless Tilke tracks that are seemingly scientifically engineered to increase overtaking opportunities making up just a proportion of the calendar is totally fine to me as well.

 

But saying F1 tracks need to go in a specific direction in future, whatever that direction is, no I can't agree with that.

[OO7]

His comments make sense in that context I guess.

 

He is just saying that the FIA regulations on things minimum track widths and runoffs for dedicated race tracks that have to cater to more kinds of racing make them worse for F1 racing, and street tracks that have less of those restrictions allow for better designs.

I do see what he means, but I still think he's wrong.  The limitations placed on permanent circuits by the F.I.A pales in comparison to the natural confines imposed upon street circuits (The Monaco Circuit thread is a good example of this).  If however Tilke is projecting a dream, where a street circuit is built first with the city constructed around it later, then I agree with him.

[MortenF1]

Weird thing to say. Almost every single closed race track has several different circuits so you can easily cater for that amateur driver with one of the different lay-outs.

[PayasYouRace]

I do understand what he means about how permanent circuits have to cater for a large variety of machines and abilities, so are effectively safer than they need to be for F1 alone.

However, I don’t think F1 needs many street circuits.

[Dr. Austin]

Speak for yourself there man.  

 

Well, that took a lot of thought.

[Dr. Austin]

I do understand what he means about how permanent circuits have to cater for a large variety of machines and abilities, so are effectively safer than they need to be for F1 alone.
 

 

Why does F1 need to be safer than other categories?

[KWSN - DSM]

Sure. We can afford one race like that a year. It's just a shame it's hard to stay awake for the supposed "crown jewel."

 

Contrast the race we had in Formula One's "pinnacle" to Indycar's pinnacle the same day and it's pretty stark. People are complaining that Indianapolis only had 45 lead changes over the course of 500 miles, but that's probably 10 times what F1 has for an entire season. The only problem with watching Indycar is that it spoils you from appreciating hi tech parades.

 

I know that Monaco is an almost love or hate point of discussion between F1 fans, a track where every single lap is either feast or famine is special, you do not need overtaking for a race to be great, the stupid rules of F1 makes overtaking hard almost impossible, but the track is uncompromising, the next great one have been bitten twice the same place and that is good for F1, that you do not have the free out of jail card the parking lots give the drivers, I want gravel and for mistakes to be punished, F1 is giving us 'video games' with mistakes being a slight re-set and then you go on your happy way.

 

If the drivers were 'forced' to race rather than strategists planning over- and undercuts there would be more overtaking, and there would be more mistakes and there would be more results not expected. F1 much as I love it have and are sanitizing itself in to LESS relevance, and as usual the powers in place show how they do not understand the product they own.

 

So yes Monaco is Hors Catégorie, and there is nothing to change.

 

[Dr. Austin]

.............. the stupid rules of F1 makes overtaking hard almost impossible,

 

Agree completely. We have ridiculous DRS to help overtaking on the straight, and then allow the leader to swerve over and block.

 

 

If the drivers were 'forced' to race rather than strategists planning over- and undercuts there would be more overtaking, and there would be more mistakes and there would be more results not expected. 

 

 

This is why I would like to see Pirelli give them on compound that will last the distance with a little care. Some people say pit stops add excitement, but I say there is nothing exciting about a car sitting still or driving on the speed limiter. Strategy may be cerebral and all, but it's nothing like wheel to wheel racing for creating excitement.

 

As long as overtaking is next to impossible, there is no other way. That, and all this strategy has made the drivers too lazy to actually race each other. That's part of why Versappen has created so much excitement. Ricciardo's wheel to wheel prowess is also why so many rate him as the best pure racer. Formula One used to have a whole grid full of people like that.

Edited by Dr. Austin, 05 June 2018 - 16:58.

[Dr. Austin]

So yes Monaco is Hors Catégorie, and there is nothing to change.

 

 

 

There is not much that can be changed. You either race there or you don't. As long as glitz glamour is more important than the actual racing,  Monaco will always have it's place.

[jjcale]

F1 where go where money is (ie the biggest profit margin less risk) ... or at least where they think the money is ... and they will say whatever they need to in order to justify their decisions.......

[ANF]

So Tilke is trying to explain to us that in fact all those safety improvements to F1 tracks weren't for F1's benefit at all, but instead for ageing amateur drivers who want to drive a GT3 at speeds way beyond their capabilities.
 
Well, that is interesting. Maybe they should hold the VLN 24 Hours in Abu Dhabi and F1's season finale at the Nordschleife.

Yeah, and newly built permanent circuits are apparently too safe for F1.

The Smolensk Ring (Смоленское Кольцо) was set the first of the crop of new Russian circuits to make its case for international racing ...

Groundwork began in 2007 to plans drawn up by Hermann Tilke.
...
The circuit duly underwent its final development to allow homologation to FIA Grade 2 standards in order to host the GT cars, but alas it became apparent that the race organisers lacked the necessary finances to put on an event of this scale ...
http://www.racingcir...lensk-ring.html

[BillBald]

It's not that street tracks are so great, it's more that the FIA has ruined other tracks with their absurd 'track limits' policies.

 

Street tracks impose track limits due to the fact that there are buildings in the way, where the FIA would normally put car park-style runoffs.

[Gorma]

Tracks aren't the problem... It's the aero...

[OO7]

It's not that street tracks are so great, it's more that the FIA has ruined other tracks with their absurd 'track limits' policies.

 

Street tracks impose track limits due to the fact that there are buildings in the way, where the FIA would normally put car park-style runoffs.

The F.I.A have made a meal of run-off at permanent circuits, however I'd still pick Spa or COTA over Baku.

[Seanspeed]

Well, that took a lot of thought.

It's all that needed to be said on that.  I dont want to create some big IndyCar vs F1 discussions here, either.  

 

While you may find that IndyCar has *spoiled* F1 for you, dont presume to think that's the common opinion for others.  That's all. 

[FLB]

Jean Todt seems very keen on street circuits, so that may be a reason why Tilke made those comments. Todt insisted for one thing that the Montréal Formula E race be held on a treet circuit. Tilke may be positioning himself for the future..

 

Miami F1 would also be a street circuit. Liberty is perhaps keen to have countries/organizers having to absorb the costs of building and managing a track.

[SlipLtd]

I guess no one remembers what happened to champcar when they abandoned the events they were built upon and went to mostly street races.

Did someone say Formula 1 Grand Prix of Baltimore?!?!

[f1paul]

[OO7]

Jean Todt seems very keen on street circuits, so that may be a reason why Tilke made those comments. Todt insisted for one thing that the Montréal Formula E race be held on a treet circuit. Tilke may be positioning himself for the future..

 

Miami F1 would also be a street circuit. Liberty is perhaps keen to have countries/organizers having to absorb the costs of building and managing a track.

The whole concept of Formula E running exclusively on street circuits makes sense given the scale of the cars and the marketing of electric cars.

[KWSN - DSM]

The whole concept of Formula E running exclusively on street circuits makes sense given the scale of the cars and the marketing of electric cars.

 

Also hide how not good the Formula E cars most likely is.

 

[PayasYouRace]

Why does F1 need to be safer than other categories?

 

That's sort of the opposite to what I was saying and what I understood Tilke to be saying.

 

In general, F1 needs higher safety standards because they are faster, so more energy needs to be dissipated in a crash. However, the permanent circuits host all sorts of vehciles, including dangerous cars like historics, homebuilt club formulae, to road cars on track days and of course motorbikes. So the circuits themselves require a higher safety standard than a circuit used exclusively for F1. A Red Bull RB14 might survive a crash with a wall where the driver can walk away no problem. But what happens if a McLaren M23 run by historic racer hits that wall, or indeed, if Joe Bloggs pushes the Caterham 7 that he built in his garage a little bit beyond his talent?

 

This is what I get about Tilke's statement. Circuits are businesses, and they need to ensure they are attractive to their customers all year round.

[Nonesuch]

"But as you see in Baku - that is a track built only for professional drivers.  You could never have old drivers or young drivers on this track, and that makes a difference."

 
Let's see how the class of '96/'97 did:
 
Ocon: Crashed out.
Verstappen: Crashed out.
LeClerc: 6th
Stroll: 8th
 
No clear link there.
 

"This means amateur drivers, it means a driver who is 60 years old and wishes to drive some kind of racing car or high-performance car. All these people have to be safe [on permanent tracks], it is not only F1."
 
"But as you see in Baku - that is a track built only for professional drivers.  You could never have old drivers or young drivers on this track, and that makes a difference."

 

Baku and Singapore... or Spa and Silverstone...

 

Melbourne and Detroit... or Suzuka and Barber Motorsports Park...

 

 

If those are tough calls, maybe the best way to go would be to ... let someone else design F1 tracks for a while.

[Dr. Austin]

It's all that needed to be said on that.  I dont want to create some big IndyCar vs F1 discussions here, either.  

 

While you may find that IndyCar has *spoiled* F1 for you, dont presume to think that's the common opinion for others.  That's all. 

Much better. Thanks.