45 replies to this topic

[sopa]

Let's carry on with the debate about 'recent' history.

 

What about Jordan GP? 

 

First of all their entrance into F1 in 1991 was very impressive. 5th in WCC straight off the bat with customer Ford engines. I have always pondered, how did Eddie manage to get such a good team together to deliver instantly? Then they had a couple of lean years, but a lot of that could have been down on engines.

 

From 1994 Jordan established themselves as a strong upper midfield team and actually seemed to be getting slightly better with each season, which culminated in 1999 with customer Mugen-Honda engines no less.

 

Then the pendulum started swinging backwards. But all was not lost yet. They became Honda works team in 2001. Actually interesting that Honda had two works teams at that time (BAR and Jordan), a bit like Renault in mid-1990's. However, Honda wasn't performing at that time, so it was a midfield battle between Jordan and BAR.

 

But once Honda dropped Jordan and retained only one works team in BAR, it was curtains for the team. They dropped to the back of the field.

 

Could Eddie have done anything to halt the slide? Should he have sold to Honda? Frank Williams faced a similar dilemma a few years later, and after the departure of BMW have never re-gained their form.

 

Your memories, thoughts, impressions?

[SpaceHorseParty]

From what I've read, the Vodafone lawsuit in 2003 really hurt the team. However, they were already the second worst team on the grid by then and I'm not sure if a little bit of extra money would have helped them that much, at a time when manufacturers were buying out teams and increasing spending.

 

Also, was it ever an option for Jordan to sell the team to Honda? He did try to improve his relationship with them by giving one seat to Sato, but if I'm not mistaken, Honda favored BAR because they had better facilities. In any case, I'm sure he would (and should) have taken the option to sell some 40% to Honda, like BAR did, if he had the opportunity.

[messy]

Did they overreach from 2000 onwards after such a surprise success in 1998 and 1999? I'm not sure I know the answer, but always suspected it. I remember reading that far, far more money and resources were piled into the 2000 and 2001 cars in a bid to stay where they'd got to, and obviously it didn't happen like that. Other teams with greater muscle moved alongside or ahead of them and a comfortable third in the WDC became a battle not to fall too far back. Certainly in 2002 the car didn't seem to be as strong, and every year from there they dropped back further. By 2004 the team had already been sold off hadn't it? So the final year of Jordan Grand Prix, much like Tyrrell in 98, was sort of 'in name only'. They certainly seemed to drop quickly and it was such a shame that it all ended up so acrimoniously with Frentzen, the man who'd spearheaded their glory years really. Still think his sacking in 2001 was extremely harsh and something must clearly have been going on behind the scenes. He wasn't bad that year, even in his final race where I think he was seventh at Silverstone? Sadly that was kind of the level of the car by that point.

A nice footnote to the whole thing though is that obviously the team still exists and is still competitive under a different name and different ownership.

[ch103]

Bitten and Hisses.  

[Talisman]

Also, was it ever an option for Jordan to sell the team to Honda? He did try to improve his relationship with them by giving one seat to Sato, but if I'm not mistaken, Honda favored BAR because they had better facilities. In any case, I'm sure he would (and should) have taken the option to sell some 40% to Honda, like BAR did, if he had the opportunity.

 

There were a few issues I think with Jordan over BAR, mainly with the latter allowing Honda input into just about every aspect of the car while Jordan only wanted to receive PUs and do the rest themselves.  BAR also had a clear improvement plan set out by BAT which involved Prodrive whereas Jordan didn't have such a clear turnaround project that didn't involve Honda putting in a lot of money.  Also there were rumours that all was not quite kosher financially at Jordan at the time.  Its pretty clear that when Jordan lost tobacco sponsorship they fell backwards very quickly in subsequent years and had difficulties finding a blue chip purchaser despite their recent successful track record for similar reasons.  The Vodafone case was the final nail in the coffin.  No multinational is going to accept being treated in that manner and I suspect they weren't the only potential sponsor that found themselves being 'courted' that way.

 

The team were phenomenally lucky to eventually be bought by Mallya though.  I have little respect for his behaviour outside the sport but he needs to receive full credit for turning the team around and making them successful on a shoestring budget.  Much of that stems from his ability to know what he's good at and find people to sort out areas he realised he wasn't strong.

[TennisUK]

Rumour had it that the team wasn’t always running strictly inside the regulations around the 99-2002 era, specifically regarding traction control If I remember correctly? As it was software it wasn’t easy to police...

Edited by TennisUK, 12 June 2018 - 20:59.

[PayasYouRace]

Its pretty clear that when Jordan lost tobacco sponsorship they fell backwards very quickly in subsequent years and had difficulties finding a blue chip purchaser despite their recent successful track record for similar reasons.

I don’t understand. Jordan had their tobacco sponsorship, Benson & Hedges, right ‘til the end.

[wj_gibson]

Why exactly was Frentzen sacked anyway?

[FirstnameLastname]

Why exactly was Frentzen sacked anyway?

He was (in eddies eyes) blurring the line between driver and technical director. Wanted too much say in the design of the car and mid season development direction.

Who knows, he could have been right!

[Cornholio]

One thing I've noticed and wondered recently about their impressive 1991 debut season. They appear to have been the sole customer recipient of the Ford Cosworth HB engine. Likely a step (or two) behind the factory Benettons, but surely a big step up from the other Cosworth customer teams still using the old DFRs. Is there any background on how Eddie managed to pull that one off?

[teejay]

Bitten and Hisses.  

I feel like a cigarette suddenly. 

[CoolBreeze]

What actually happened with the Vodafone thing? I can't really recall..

[ralphrj]

What actually happened with the Vodafone thing? I can't really recall..

 

Jordan lost very, very badly.

 

Their case was hopeless and when Jordan realised that his attempt to embarrass Vodafone into paying him to go away hadn't worked he tried to withdraw the claim the day before the judgement was delivered.

 

The Judge pretty much labelled Eddie Jordan a liar.

 

"I regret to say that I found both Mr Jordan and Mr Phillips to be wholly unsatisfactory witnesses. As will appear, their evidence was in many instances in stark conflict with and indeed belied by the documents, often documents of their own making. On occasions even Mr Jordan was unable to offer an explanation and was reduced to embarrassed silence by the exposure of blatant inaccuracies in what he was saying. The evidence they gave and the claim Jordan makes became more and more contrived and unsustainable."

 

Jordan ended up humiliated and owing Vodafone for their legal costs.

[Talisman]

I don’t understand. Jordan had their tobacco sponsorship, Benson & Hedges, right ‘til the end.

 

My memory is getting worse and worse.  Of course you're right.  Something happened to their finances though, they kept losing sponsorship and IIRC went from works Honda to customer Fords.

[Talisman]

Jordan lost very, very badly.

 

Their case was hopeless and when Jordan realised that his attempt to embarrass Vodafone into paying him to go away hadn't worked he tried to withdraw the claim the day before the judgement was delivered.

 

The Judge pretty much labelled Eddie Jordan a liar.

 

"I regret to say that I found both Mr Jordan and Mr Phillips to be wholly unsatisfactory witnesses. As will appear, their evidence was in many instances in stark conflict with and indeed belied by the documents, often documents of their own making. On occasions even Mr Jordan was unable to offer an explanation and was reduced to embarrassed silence by the exposure of blatant inaccuracies in what he was saying. The evidence they gave and the claim Jordan makes became more and more contrived and unsustainable."

 

Jordan ended up humiliated and owing Vodafone for their legal costs.

 

Vodafone was considering two deals, big on small where they would essentially cover the Jordan with Vodafone logos or small on big where they would have a small part on a big team.  They eventually decided to go for 'small on big' at board level but in a taxi ride earlier EJ had asked the Vodafone chap how things were going and the guy replied informally that things looked good for Jordan.  I think the man Jordan was negotiating with did believe big on small was the superior option but lost his case with the board.  Jordan's argument IIRC was that this was a commitment to sponsoring their team and when the company announced they were going to sponsor Ferrari (I think) instead promptly threatened them with legal action unless they switched back.  I do remember some rumours at the time that other companies came out of the woodwork to report similar experiences but not sure about that.

Edited by Talisman, 13 June 2018 - 09:44.

[king_crud]

My memory is getting worse and worse.  Of course you're right.  Something happened to their finances though, they kept losing sponsorship and IIRC went from works Honda to customer Fords.

I'm sure B&H did greatly reduce their funding though

[SpeedRacer`]

Didn't a number of key staff leave too?

 

The '99 car would've been designed by Gary Anderson with key input from Mike Gascoigne and Sam Michael.  I think even James Key was involved around that time?

 

Those guys left in the following couple of years, although GA did come back in 2002.

 

It probably wasn't a good decision to stick to Bridgestones either they got the hand me downs from Ferrari, apparently even manufactured in a cheaper material according to GA's latest column.

Edited by SpeedRacer`, 13 June 2018 - 11:16.

[PayasYouRace]

Anderson designed the Stewart SF3 for that year. He switched mid 1998 and would have had little input into the 199 which is normally credited to Gascoyne. Lead times weren’t as big in those times.

There’s no doubt that after McLaren switched to Michelin the writing was on the wall for any Bridgestone team. BAR switched for 2004 and even Ferrari juniors Sauber (remember how similar the C23 was to the F2003) went Michelin for 2005. Bridgestone built tyres for Ferrari and the rest got left overs.

[sopa]

There’s no doubt that after McLaren switched to Michelin the writing was on the wall for any Bridgestone team. BAR switched for 2004 and even Ferrari juniors Sauber (remember how similar the C23 was to the F2003) went Michelin for 2005. Bridgestone built tyres for Ferrari and the rest got left overs.

 

Interestingly though Bridgestone tyres helped in special conditions, i.e in the wet. I bet on Michelins Jordan wouldn't have won any race in the noughties, but on Bridgestones they did - in Brazil 2003.

[sopa]

Did they overreach from 2000 onwards after such a surprise success in 1998 and 1999? I'm not sure I know the answer, but always suspected it. I remember reading that far, far more money and resources were piled into the 2000 and 2001 cars in a bid to stay where they'd got to, and obviously it didn't happen like that. 

 

I don't really remember about Jordan's finances, other than that they kept Benson & Hedges as title sponsor till the end, though obviously they reduced their sponsorship once Jordan dropped to the back. Inferior positions - less visibility.

 

Personally I find two factors that contributed to Jordan's decline. 

 

a) From 2000 onwards we had a huge influx of car manufacturers. BMW, Honda, Renault, Ford/Jaguar, Toyota. This meant that the competition in midfield intensified a lot. As Jordan despite its short flirtation with Honda remained a privateer, in the end they had to yield in this tough competition.

 

b) If an underdog team punches above its weight, richer teams often take interest in their design talents and simply outbid them. I.e Leyton House/March lost Newey to Williams. Also Jordan lost Gascoyne to Renault and I guess some other people. As we remember, Renault started then improving at a rapid rate.

 

Edit: Though it has to be said another midfield privateer team back in the day, Sauber, survived much better and remained a midfielder. So possible that Eddie J. pushed the boundaries in some respects a bit too far, took some gambles that didn't pay off. Sauber knew its limits as Ferrari's #2 team, and thus survived better.

Edited by sopa, 13 June 2018 - 12:06.

[Tsarwash]

 Also there were rumours that all was not quite kosher financially at Jordan at the time. 

I obviously need to be a bit careful, but I had a friend who was working in a subsidiary F1 industry during that time and had contracts and dealings with a few teams including Jordan, and Ferrari and perhaps a few others, and his impression was not a very high one at all. The word cr**k was thrown around a few times regarding Eddie and his 'dealings'. This was before the court case. 

Edited by Tsarwash, 13 June 2018 - 12:08.

[DerekWildstar]

Here’s a short documentary from the early 2000s which focuses on Honda’s V10 engine and Honda’s relationship with BAR and Jordan. There aren’t any earth-shattering revelations in here, but you can see the differences between the two teams’ bases, and there are some interviews which (somewhat) get at the tension between Jordan and BAR:

https://youtu.be/C-2YdVn4n90

[king_crud]

Edit: Though it has to be said another midfield privateer team back in the day, Sauber, survived much better and remained a midfielder. So possible that Eddie J. pushed the boundaries in some respects a bit too far, took some gambles that didn't pay off. Sauber knew its limits as Ferrari's #2 team, and thus survived better.

I think Eddie was the old "used car salesman" type of wheeler dealer, and that era was on the way out, whereas Peter Sauber was more of a powerpoint presentation to an executive board type of guy, and they kept him in good stead.

[maximilian]

History subforum?

[danmills]

Can you imagine if Jordan got the BMW works deal that Williams had! 

[Jovanotti]

OP reminded me of the 2001 Jordan which is still one of my favourite cars of all times

Edited by Jovanotti, 13 June 2018 - 15:50.

[midgrid]

It all went downhill when they stopped putting animals on the side of the nose.

[Cornholio]

It all went downhill when they stopped putting animals on the side of the nose.

 

IMO it was between them and WestEast Zakspeed for most imaginative tobacco ad ban avoidance. And I'm not talking about Be On Edge.

[noikeee]

History subforum?

https://forums.autos...-13-april-2018/

[sniper80]

In 2001, they lost the super talented Dino Toso to Renault. Unfortunately this huge technical talent died from cancer later on in 2008 when at Renault.

[Nathan]

I don’t understand. Jordan had their tobacco sponsorship, Benson & Hedges, right ‘til the end.

 

B&H support began to get smaller and smaller.

 

Eddie sold 40% putting the 60m proceeds into his offshore accounts instead of back in to the team at the time when his factory was undersized and illequiped, had no wind tunnel, and when things like CFD and simulation tools were starting to be a target for R&D money within the top teams.

 

Exodus of engineers due to lack of investment and comparative salaries. JGP was able to replace Anderson with Gascoyne, but had no replacement for Gascoyne.

 

The Frenzten debacle..

 

Loss of works Honda engines.

 

The Vodafone debacle.. 

 

All one has to do is look at the list of international sponsors on the 2001 car compared to the 2003 car.  The loss of DHL, Mastercard and reduced input from B&H was never replaced (see above).

 

So in other words, because of Eddie Jordan. 

 

I think he figured he was confined to being best of the rest and didn't need to re-invest like the top 4 teams, but then much of the mid-field turned into works efforts.  

Edited by Nathan, 13 June 2018 - 23:27.

[Talisman]

I don't really remember about Jordan's finances, other than that they kept Benson & Hedges as title sponsor till the end, though obviously they reduced their sponsorship once Jordan dropped to the back. Inferior positions - less visibility.

 

Personally I find two factors that contributed to Jordan's decline. 

 

a) From 2000 onwards we had a huge influx of car manufacturers. BMW, Honda, Renault, Ford/Jaguar, Toyota. This meant that the competition in midfield intensified a lot. As Jordan despite its short flirtation with Honda remained a privateer, in the end they had to yield in this tough competition.

 

b) If an underdog team punches above its weight, richer teams often take interest in their design talents and simply outbid them. I.e Leyton House/March lost Newey to Williams. Also Jordan lost Gascoyne to Renault and I guess some other people. As we remember, Renault started then improving at a rapid rate.

 

Edit: Though it has to be said another midfield privateer team back in the day, Sauber, survived much better and remained a midfielder. So possible that Eddie J. pushed the boundaries in some respects a bit too far, took some gambles that didn't pay off. Sauber knew its limits as Ferrari's #2 team, and thus survived better.

 

I agree, the influx of manufacturers and their superior funding meant teams like Jordan were stripped of staff.  I think a lot of Jordan personnel ended up at Benetton/Renault pulled away by Gascoyne.

 

Sauber had one advantage over Jordan.  It wouldn't take much of a salary increase to tempt an engineer away from Silverstone to a job in Grove or Brackley but it would to tempt a Swiss away to the UK...

[Nathan]

Too much time at the office allowed me to go through Companies House records and put this little chart together.

 

Edited by Nathan, 25 June 2018 - 20:33.

[Spillage]

It's worth noting just how close Frentzen came to winning the title in 1999. If his car hadn't let him down at the Nurburgring he'd have been level on points with Irvine and one behind Hakkinen with two races to go. And he'd have been coming off the back of consecutive race wins. Who knows what might have happened...?

 

Sadly, Jordan, like Stewart, failed to capitalise on a really strong 1999. The closest they got in 2000 was when they wasted a fantastic opportunity to win at Monaco. The car wasn't as good and, to be honest, Frentzen wasn't as good either - but he never did look good with the weight of expectation on his shoulders, nor when he had a teammate who wasn't a pushover.

[sopa]

Too much time at the office allowed me to go through Companies House records and put this little chart together.

 

 

I see, so financially Jordan peaked around 2001.

[SenorSjon]

It is odd to think of a team with only 45 staff in 1993. Teams are allowed to work on the car with 42 people in race weekends iirc.

[Myrvold]

Amazing to see how teams apparantly "blew up" at the end of the 90's start of 00's in number of people. Not only Jordan, but so many others as well.
It's a good thing to have many people working (when you look at having as many people as possible in jobs in a country). However, I cannot say that F1 got any better with that many people.

One have to wonder if a limit of 75-100 employees would make for a better series.

[7MGTEsup]

It is funny to think now we have teams of 700 people to build and run 2 racing cars sounds silly when you say it out loud.

[JordanIreland]

In 2001, they lost the super talented Dino Toso to Renault. Unfortunately this huge technical talent died from cancer later on in 2008 when at Renault.

 

Sadly it was around this time that Jordan was hemeridging key staff to a lot of the other big teams with Renault getting the majority. If I remember correctly, Jordan couldnt keep up with the salary demands. 

[JordanIreland]

I see, so financially Jordan peaked around 2001.

 

Its interesting to see the drop off in revenue of almost 50% from 2001 to 2003, plus Jordan needed to pay for its Ford engines in 2003.

[Talisman]

Its interesting to see the drop off in revenue of almost 50% from 2001 to 2003, plus Jordan needed to pay for its Ford engines in 2003.

 

Honda's severance payment to Jordan at the end of 2002 should have covered the 2003 Ford engine supply though.  I wonder where it went?

[SenorSjon]

Perhaps he spend the alleged Vodafone money in advance?

[Boing 2]

I seem to recall an issue with gearboxes in 2000, did they expand their gearbox dept or start making them in-house after having subcontracted them previously?

 

A real shame that F1 went into a manufacturer era just as Jordan got to the sharp end, if you consider a true privateer team as one than comes into the sport with no corporate backing then really Eddie was the only true privateer since Frank joined the grid to win a race and fight for a title.

[messy]

It's worth noting just how close Frentzen came to winning the title in 1999. If his car hadn't let him down at the Nurburgring he'd have been level on points with Irvine and one behind Hakkinen with two races to go. And he'd have been coming off the back of consecutive race wins. Who knows what might have happened...?

 

Sadly, Jordan, like Stewart, failed to capitalise on a really strong 1999. The closest they got in 2000 was when they wasted a fantastic opportunity to win at Monaco. The car wasn't as good and, to be honest, Frentzen wasn't as good either - but he never did look good with the weight of expectation on his shoulders, nor when he had a teammate who wasn't a pushover.

 

Frentzen was nowhere in Malaysia though was he? I doubt he'd have been able to magic anything else up in the last two races, but after Monza he did put himself in a brilliant position. Ultimately though it took a McLaren failure or rain to really put Jordan on a level footing, in a "normal" race (as Sepang and Suzuka were), they were well behind McLaren and Ferrari. 

 

It was still an incredibly strong season though. 

[Wingcommander]

I think Eddie was the old "used car salesman" type of wheeler dealer

Eddie Irvine put it quite well: "EJ got into F1 because of the way he was and was forced out because of the way he was"

The time of the true privateers was coming to an end and I think Jordan's faith illustrates it quite well.

[BRG]

Can you imagine if Jordan got the BMW works deal that Williams had! 

Yes.  We would now be saying 'Remember that Jordan team before BMW shut them down and threw away the key?'