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Holden grey motor speed/power record holders


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#1 theotherharv

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 01:20

Gents,

 

I am currently building a Holden grey motor project, and would like to set myself some targets. I am interested in collecting the fastest Holden grey motor performances known. Happy to entertain records set in Holden-bodied and non-Holden-bodied vehicles.

 

Many performances are subject to speculation, and as the old t-shirt says “the older I get, the faster I was”. Interested in performances that can in some way be verified.

 

Listed below is what I know so far:

Land speed: Dennis Boundy #283 Norman-blown FJ Holden sedan, Lake Gairdner Great White Dyno. XO/PRO class March 2006 @ 113.075mph and XO/BVGC class March 2009 @ 113.478. Records held by DLRA (https://www.dlra.org.au/index.htm).

 

Drag racing: Bob Hamilton “Captain Nitrous” FJ Holden sedan, Willowbank Raceway January 1989, 12.98s Source: Street Machine Hotrod Ledgends January 2008 (http://www.thegreymo...in-nitrous.html). Legend has it that this record has been recently eclipsed by Mark Riek (see below) at 12.78s, though I need to verify.

 

Dynanometer: Mark Riek, MUX53 turbocharged EFI FX Holden utility, 204rwhp. Source: Street Machine July 2017 (https://www.whichcar...-the-dyno-video)

 

Your views on contenders for these titles (or additions for circuit, hillclimb or marine) appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Harv



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#2 theotherharv

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:37

A rather fast update. Have now seen the timeslip for Mark Riek’s run. Would propose:

 

Drag racing: Mark Riek MUX53 turbo EFI FX utility, Willowbank Raceway October 2017, 12.78s (source: timeslip).

 

Cheers,

Harv



#3 theotherharv

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 19:47

Another one to add to the land speed category:

 

Bob Telford, #1160 “2015 Special” grey motored bellytank, Lake Gairdner Great White Dyno March 2018, XO/GL class @ 133.254mph.

 

Cheers,

Harv



#4 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 03:22

The salt must drag power, as 113mph is really quite slow. FJ racers talk higher speeds than that in the 50s. And Jack Myers car should have been far quicker in that period as well. Especially with the Waggott engine. And 200hp grey motors too have been around for 50+ years. Dragsters, drag tintops, midgets, FJ racing and speedway sedans among others. Plenty used quite a deal of boost where allowed.

Reliability however another story! A LOT of destroyed engines! 



#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:15

50 years ago the best iron-headed grey motors were giving about 155hp when bored to 2.6-litres...

I guess Repco heads and/or funny fuel might have been a bit more.

#6 Dick Willis

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 10:45

Now the original headed cars are good for about 180 in Historics with cranks and rods which weren't used 50 years ago and the Repcos seem to be good for another 30-40 bhp.



#7 theotherharv

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 20:36

Thanks guys - appreciated.

 

The search for documented grey motor performance is an interesting one. Some of the circuit/speedway performances are hard to tie down, as the nature of their runs is not always measurable (perhaps fastest time at a given circuit?). 

 

The 200hp figure is almost mythical in grey motor circles. What catches my eye is that the Captain Nitrous performance was long touted as the fastest grey quarter mile. Riek's run, on an engine dyno'd at 200 ponies, was 0.2 seconds faster. There are always differences in chassis, tyre, weight etc, though it would appear that (roughly) Captain Nitrous was at about the 200hp mark. If 200hp greys were (relatively) common, I would have thought there would have been more contenders knocking on the Captain's door.

 

Cheers,

Harv



#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 21:15

Have you spoken to Ray Eldershaw?

He built the best there was (under Appendix J regulations) in 1960-61 and got close to Waggott's dyno at the time.

#9 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 23:17

Now the original headed cars are good for about 180 in Historics with cranks and rods which weren't used 50 years ago and the Repcos seem to be good for another 30-40 bhp.

Cranks? They are using the same cranks and stroke in GpN as they used 50 years ago,, making said cranks 50 years older! I believe there is some better rods around but properly prepped OEM ones did the job,,, just! Pistons, yes but bloody expensive. I am trying to find some decent 179 ones and all I can get is forged at three times the cost of 202 ones.

Head work, cams and valvetrain improvements is where the extra power is coming from. And illegal, but necesary ignition mods. GpN must use original distributor and only recently have been allowed electronic. But A nooone makes one for greys B using a MSD style is still not legal.

Whereas good midget engines were on methanol and used a magneto. 



#10 Dale Harvey

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 03:45

The original cranks were fragile. Vauxhaul or steel billet cranks are used these days. Dick made no mention of Group N. He said historics and there are a lot of Aussie specials that use grey motors.

Dale.



#11 theotherharv

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 20:32

Aaaahh.... the Vauxhall crank. Almost, but not quite a grey motor myth. They were used 50-odd years ago, but are now as rare as rockinghorse poo. I suspect (though could be wrong) that there are fewer than a dozen still in active use... pretty much as rare as Repco heads. I reckon there are more guys using either standard cranks (with main bearing bridges or girdles) or the newer billet cranks.

 

Agree with Lee that the standard rods take a fair amount of abuse. Some have upgraded to Mistubishi 4G63 rods (Eagle and others do nice aftermarket versions), 6-bolt version on original cranks and 7-bolt narrower-journal version on billet cranks.

 

Ray - do you have a contact for Mr Eldershaw please?

 

Cheers,

Harv



#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 22:45

I certainly do...

e.mail me and I'll give you his phone number. But in the meantime, here's something I wrote for MRA:
 

Horsepower rose year by year. Waggott was happy to see 136bhp on his dyno from an engine he’d prepared, but when Brian Muir’s car obviously had more power he wanted to see exactly how much more someone had found.

He offered Muir and his mechanic, Ray Eldershaw, a dyno test and saw the engine deliver 142bhp. “That’s 6hp more than the best I’ve ever seen from a standard-headed engine,” Waggott declared.

The notably modest Eldershaw (a perfectionist who wasn’t prone to blowing his own trumpet) then said, “Hah! What idiot built that one?” He later said he felt as small as a threepenny bit when Waggott answered “Me!”

Later other developments took the power of the Appendix J engines to over 150bhp, with the Boomerang Service Station car leading the way. As Bo Seton explained, it had cam followers that were ground to provide a rounded end, so they opened the valve like a roller follower would without the rollers. This car was the ultimate Appendix J machine.

You will certainly enjoy talking to Ray if you ring him.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 20 June 2018 - 22:47.


#13 bradbury west

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 18:28

For the info benefit of someone over here rather than down there, which Vauxhall crank, please?
Roger Lund

#14 theotherharv

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 20:00

According to legend, the crank used was the Aussie 1958-1961 Vauxhall Cresta PA  2262cc unit. From what I understand, this is the same crank as that used in the earlier Cresta E vehicles, though I am no Vauxhall expert. The larger 2651cc engines used in the later PAs and early PBs, later bored out to 3293cc units in PBs apparently have a different setup for the dizzy/oil pump drive (similar to the later Holden red motor) and are not used.

 

I suspect that if you tried buying a Cresta motor nowadays and let slip that you were putting the crank into a Holden grey motor, the Vauxhall guys would run you out of town with torches and pitchforks  :lol: .

 

Cheers,

Harv



#15 bradbury west

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 20:12

Many thanks. I was afraid it might be that one. From what I recall for a six pot it was not overburdened with main bearings, and certainly the later 3.3 Motors peaked at something like 4600 rpm. Intriguing
Roger Lund

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 21:05

I stumbled into this question once..

Mal Brewster was chasing a Vauxhall crank for a Holden-engined car which had actually used the Vauxhall crank originally, and I knew where there was a number of the cars.

A lot of effort later I had the crank, it must have been a '59 or '60 model, and sent it off to Mal. Later he told me it was the wrong one!

#17 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 23:13

According to legend, the crank used was the Aussie 1958-1961 Vauxhall Cresta PA  2262cc unit. From what I understand, this is the same crank as that used in the earlier Cresta E vehicles, though I am no Vauxhall expert. The larger 2651cc engines used in the later PAs and early PBs, later bored out to 3293cc units in PBs apparently have a different setup for the dizzy/oil pump drive (similar to the later Holden red motor) and are not used.

 

I suspect that if you tried buying a Cresta motor nowadays and let slip that you were putting the crank into a Holden grey motor, the Vauxhall guys would run you out of town with torches and pitchforks  :lol: .

 

Cheers,

Harv

PA 2.6 is a 12 port 7 main engine. The earlier engines were I think 9 port  and 4 main. as for fitting in Holdens I have no idea though the engines are similar in length.

No PBs had the 3.3, that is PC only as an option. Or at least here in Oz.

A few Vauxhall engines ended up in midgets but a lot more fabrication for go fast parts such as triple carb/ injection manifolds and the like.

I have a Vauxhall loving mate is the only reason I know anything about these things.

 

The biggest problem with the grey motor is the harmonics, that is what breaks cranks. Some seem to have largely cured it though the critical phase is between 6 and 7000 rpm. Over 7000 they live and that is where many midgets ran. Still sound great doing it, that high pitched scream. Ofcourse in a midget the harmonics were probably worse with no flywheel and often no balancer either.

For cars with a clutch and balancer there is less of a problem though it is still there. Though they have to be compatable though, light flywheel needs a lighter balancer, one with better damping that the original.  I suspect an expert with some mallory metal  may help.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 21 June 2018 - 23:14.


#18 theotherharv

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:02

I caught up with Ray Eldershaw today – a real gentleman.

 

Ray built the Muir grey motor with a target of 140BHP and 120mph down Bathurst’s Conrod Straight. Ray was confident of his tuning, and took only three SU needles with him to the mountain. In an early practice session, the vehicle ran the tacho to 6500rpm. Ray questioned the tacho’s accuracy, only for Muir to reply that it had been recently rebuilt. Confirmation from the circuit indicated a healthy 128mph. The car however was sluggish on the mountain, and a different cam was swapped in for racing. The engine raced for some 18 months before being trialed on Don Schroeder’s (sp?) Town and Country dyno at Parramatta, returning 142BHP in its well-worn state. The dyno owner indicated it was the most powerful run seen on the dyno, and the first to get the dyno warm.

 

I was also curious about the driveline, and queried the gearbox used. Power was run through a near-standard GMH three-speed crashbox. Double-row FAG bearings were fitted to the rear of the box (as Holden did during the FB Holden run), whilst bearings for the front of the box were chosen to have the most number of balls possible. They early steel extension housings were believed to be stronger than the later alloy extensions. Gardner and Siemens (sp?) from Woolloomooloo machined a steel sleeve for the extensions (with a slot for the speedo drive) that ran forward and pressed on the rear bearing outer race. This assisted in reducing mainshaft movement. Synchro springs were stretched slightly before installation, a practice recommended in FB/EK Service Bulletins. Vauxhall synchro strings were rumoured to be stronger, though Ray did not use them. The synchro snap rings were not tack welded in place. The differentials were near standard, though the later EJ Holden flanged joints were used. The FJ axles had a tendency to snap. Testing showed that the cracks originated from the keyway ends. Dufor was consulted, and it was found that the manufacturing process included a process which knocked the keyway ends, making a stress riser. Dufor changed the manufacturing process to remove the knocking process. Tailshafts were standard, with Ray not seeing a tailshaft failure until the red-motored EH S4.

 

All up, the best I have seen to date remains Riek's 204rwhp and 12.789 quarter, and Telford's 133mph.


Cheers,

Harv



#19 john medley

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 04:32

Town & Country Dyno: John and Brian Schroder



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#20 theotherharv

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 08:15

Thanks John. Sometimes my hearing on the phone is not so good... sounded like Don (rather than John) to me.



#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:55

I'm rather surprised to see the TACE dyno mentioned...

Everything Ray has ever told me associated the Waggott dyno with Ray's engines. This was at Greenacre, the TACE dyno was at Hornsby if I'm not mistaken.

#22 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 14:35

TACE was originally co-located on the site of John and Brian's parents petrol station on the west side of Church Street quite close to the Parramatta River.  The H & F dyno was behind the northern most service station doors.

 

The TACE dyno probably provided the most reliable results of any in the Sydney area.  It was a first class machine with a careful installation plus Brian and John insisted that only steady state readings were documented.  Some others were happy to sometimes publish flash readings.

 

My memory does not allow me to remember when they moved TACE to Hornsby but it had to be in or after the late 1960s.  The Hornsby site was near the railway tracks in  the northern end of the .city.  Downstairs in the back of the building??

 

John might be able to better pin point the timing.

 

Regards



#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 23:17

The 'official' date was August 1, 1965, Joe...

And welcome back, too.

Trolling through RCN binders I found advertising in the early 1965 issues for TACE at 453 Church Street, Parramatta. Later in the year they started advertising their new address at 2a Linda Street, Hornsby, giving that date for the move.

Which explains my wonderment to me. All I knew of TACE at the time was that they ran their Notas under the TACE banner, and that would get mentioned on the Warwick Farm PA, and ads in RCN. But, as my first RCN was the August, 1963 issue, I would have seen very few ads for the Parramatta address, even if I looked at them

Later, of course, I was very familiar with them at Hornsby.

Anyway, I was speaking to Ray the other day and he told me that Brian had been approached by the Schroders to dyno his engine, whereas all of Ray's previous dyno work (and his later work, too) was at Waggott's. He said that the TACE dyno was known for its accuracy and that it was a brand new Heenan & Froude. Also that John told them after running the Muir engine that it was the first engine that had ever got the dyno warm!

#24 theotherharv

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 00:49

For interest, I dug out the Repco HighPower factory literature (1959). They were able to squeeze 160BHP@6000rpm (150lbf.ft@4500rpm) out of the grey, using the crossflow head with dual exhaust, twin horizontal DOM Webers, the H.P.1 racing cam (80 degrees overlap), bored out to 3.125", 9.5:1 compression and 50% methanol fuel blend.

 

Cheers,

Harv



#25 theotherharv

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 01:57

A recent FaceBook posting got me thinking there may be a faster grey than Riekes. From this article (http://www.thegreymotor.com/2014/08/1210-second-grey-motor-crater-critter.html?m=1) it would appear that the Crater Critter was running 12.1 seconds with a grey motor. Sounds damn fast for the period, and is based on the owners memory. As a cross-check, the above article (and this one = http://www.thegreymotor.com/2015/03/crater-critter-supercharged-grey-motor.html?m=1) shows the car running in Car running in C Altered class. The articles infer a 12.10s pass at the 1968 Calder Nationals. This article (http://www.speedwayandroadracehistory.com/melbourne-calder-park-drag-strip.html) shows April 1968 Calder C/A times at 12.12 (in the Corvette engine Shaker humpy), so the Crater Critter claim would appear to be reasonable.

 

Does anyone have any more documentation (old magazines perhaps) that describe the C/A class at the 1968 Nationals? Would love to validate if the Crater Critter 12.12s claim is correct.


Cheers,

Harv



#26 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 04:06

The Ian R Jones owned Repco powered Supermod is For Sale I am told. Last run about 10 years ago as a Classic [and very classic!] and developed a rattle in the motor and Colin Hanks who was driving it put it away. Repco powered since the 60s!

Ran in mudsprints, Circuit Sprints at AIR !! Even hillclimbed from memory and then back to Speedway. Last time Jones ran the thing at AIR it coasted in sounding VERY sharp,,,, flywheel flange of the crank had parted company with the rest of the crank. And yes it was in the danger zone between 6 and 7000

If anyone is interested I can find Jones's contact details.



#27 theotherharv

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 03:27

https://www.facebook...hc_location=ufi

 

198BHP out of a Repco headed grey, N/A. A fair bit behind Reike's blown, factory headed version but still well above the 160BHP that Repco advertised.

 

Cheers,

Harv



#28 theotherharv

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Posted 14 November 2022 - 22:45

Reviving an old thread.

As far as research can tell me, the fastest ever quarter mile powered by a grey motor (regardless of body type... door car, FED etc) is Barry Goong's 11.49s (D/Dragster, 1970 Nationals). If anyone knows of a quicker time, please share.

Part of the reason for my curiosity is my FED project. To race in Modified, I am going to need to make the grey pull a 10.99s or quicker pass. As far as I can tell, that would need it to be the world's fastest grey, by 0.5 seconds. I've got Eldred, Phil and Hedley helping, but think it will still be a pretty fair challenge.

Cheers,
Harv

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 November 2022 - 13:20

Sounds like you'll be looking for a very light car with good traction...

 

Would modern drag racing clutches be handy too?



#30 theotherharv

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Posted 15 November 2022 - 21:29

Have been collecting parts for this one for a while. Plan at this stage is a IHRA-compliant FED chassis, which will let me run at Eastern Creek. It's about 85% done. Grey motor has been cleaned up and bored out to 3.25" bore. One cylinder had a casting inclusion (that only showed up at final hone :( ) so that cylinder got sleeved. Virgin crank has been cracked tested and spun down to suit Nissan bearings. Eagle rods are now floating on the big end and location controlled on the little end. Custom forged slugs should see compression around 9.5:1. Was going to run a reproduction Repco head, but am still waiting after having paid my 50% deposit (... it's been four years). Have now found a genuine head, though still has the Vincent rockers. Type 110 Norman supercharger, aiming for around 10psi boost. McGee injection specifically made for the Repco head (though will run suck-through on the Norman). Thought about dry-sumping it but the complexity outweighs the benefit in a simple FED. Transmission is a HK/T Slide-and-Glide, toughened internally and shortened. Hilux diff shortened down to about 3' long with a spool with Commodore disks for simplicity. 15x10" slicks.

 

Aiming to come in around the 1300lb mark. I'm going to need around 220 crank ponies to make the 10.99. Mark Reik's standard-headed turbo'd grey pulls 204HP at the wheels (say 300 at the crank) on pump fuel so I'm figuring a crossflow head and a good slurp of methanol should make this possible.

 

Cheers,

Harv



#31 Enmac

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 02:33

Hi Harv, a newcomer here and just read your post. Just on the top speed side , I race a 50's single seater with a crossflow grey that has about 220hp at the flywheel. It pulls 7400rpm (when I let it!) at Phillip Island with a 3.66 diff and that's just over 145 mph allowing for a little tyre growth on the Hoosiers. There's no way of confirming the actual number beyond doubt of course, but some grist for the mill. 

Cheers Nick



#32 theotherharv

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 04:14

Very cool  :cool:

 

I've got a 4.5:1 centre in the FED... it will touch over 8000rpm going through the traps. Rockers are currently factory Vincent, so likely to walk off the exhaust valve tip when abused that way. I need to find some rollies in the near future.

 

Cheers,

Harv



#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 08:25

Tell us more about your car, Nick...

 

Is it one we're likely to know?

 

Repco head? Twin cam? Rotary valve?



#34 Enmac

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 10:15

Ray it's the ex Glynn Scott Repco Holden, built in 1957 I don't know how to upload pics in here but I've got some race footage on YouTube. Here's some dyno footage running it to 7000 and it sounds sweet, now that we've got the mixtures better.   https://www.youtube....h?v=aQVPUpZlXY8.

The car was a copy, tube for tube from the Tom Hawkes Cooper Holden which was the ex Jack Brabham Redex Cooper Bristol. A crossflow grey on 2" SU's, bored to 3 3/16", max torque at 5600, power at 6400.  The car has been racing in historic since dad restored in the early 80's with over a hundred wins I guess and many lap records. I've been racing it for the last 5 or 6 and it's a lot of fun. Excellent handling and the best exhaust note you'll ever hear (bar the V16 BRM perhaps!). Cheers!



#35 Enmac

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 10:18

Very cool  :cool:

 

I've got a 4.5:1 centre in the FED... it will touch over 8000rpm going through the traps. Rockers are currently factory Vincent, so likely to walk off the exhaust valve tip when abused that way. I need to find some rollies in the near future.

 

Cheers,

Harv

Harv someone did make some sets, maybe John Anderson who now owns the ex Paul England Ausca he bought from my father? I see Yella Terra make them for Greys. We cant use them in historic racing unfortunately. 8000!! Wow! That's the highest I've heard in a grey, have you cracked any blocks or broken cranks?


Edited by Enmac, 12 December 2022 - 00:23.


#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 10:51

Use postimage.org, Enmac...

 

Simple as anything, just upload and select 'Hotlink for forums', paste into your post.



#37 Enmac

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Posted 09 December 2022 - 11:15



Use postimage.org, Enmac...

 

Simple as anything, just upload and select 'Hotlink for forums', paste into your post.

Like this?

 

 

That's pretty handy thanks for the tip

PI-200307-3-3518.jpg


Edited by Enmac, 09 December 2022 - 11:16.


#38 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 December 2022 - 12:08

Looks stunning, Nick...

 

I'm quite sure 'The Duke' would have loved to see it looking like that. I'd imagine that Jim Bertram had something to do with it at some time during the Scott ownership.



#39 Enmac

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 02:18



Looks stunning, Nick...

 

I'm quite sure 'The Duke' would have loved to see it looking like that. I'd imagine that Jim Bertram had something to do with it at some time during the Scott ownership.

Ray I dont know the names but looking through Dad's restoration notes I see there's a quote from Jim Bertram detailing when they ran a grey at 6100 rpm for a period on the dyno the engine lasted 21 seconds before expiring! Here's a pic of ours...

IMG-9283-2.jpg



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#40 Enmac

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 02:21

 

Gents,

 

 

 

I am currently building a Holden grey motor project, and would like to set myself some targets. I am interested in collecting the fastest Holden grey motor performances known. Happy to entertain records set in Holden-bodied and non-Holden-bodied vehicles.

 

Many performances are subject to speculation, and as the old t-shirt says “the older I get, the faster I was”. Interested in performances that can in some way be verified.

 

 

 

Listed below is what I know so far:

 

Land speed: Dennis Boundy #283 Norman-blown FJ Holden sedan, Lake Gairdner Great White Dyno. XO/PRO class March 2006 @ 113.075mph and XO/BVGC class March 2009 @ 113.478. Records held by DLRA (https://www.dlra.org.au/index.htm).

 

 

 

Drag racing: Bob Hamilton “Captain Nitrous” FJ Holden sedan, Willowbank Raceway January 1989, 12.98s Source: Street Machine Hotrod Ledgends January 2008 (http://www.thegreymo...in-nitrous.html). Legend has it that this record has been recently eclipsed by Mark Riek (see below) at 12.78s, though I need to verify.

 

 

 

Dynanometer: Mark Riek, MUX53 turbocharged EFI FX Holden utility, 204rwhp. Source: Street Machine July 2017 (https://www.whichcar...-the-dyno-video)

 

 

 

Your views on contenders for these titles (or additions for circuit, hillclimb or marine) appreciated.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Harv

 

Harv I see in my Dad's notes that the Scott Repco Holden was timed at 148mph on Conrod Staight I'm guessing that was Easter 1960. They had 185hp then. 



#41 GregThomas

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 06:42

That's the first Holden powered single seater I've seen with a decent exhaust system. Not that there were very many this side of the Tasman anyway.

Very nice car indeed.



#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 09:01

Originally posted by Enmac
Harv I see in my Dad's notes that the Scott Repco Holden was timed at 148mph on Conrod Staight I'm guessing that was Easter 1960. They had 185hp then.


Scotty was in the Cooper for the Easter, 1960, meeting...

The last Bathurst run in this car was October, 1959, when it rained. 148mph in the wet? I don't think so. And at Easter in 1959 he would have been going very well to do that as Ross Jensen's Maserati 250F was quickest car of the meeting at a little over 152mph.

#43 Enmac

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 00:08

Scotty was in the Cooper for the Easter, 1960, meeting...

The last Bathurst run in this car was October, 1959, when it rained. 148mph in the wet? I don't think so. And at Easter in 1959 he would have been going very well to do that as Ross Jensen's Maserati 250F was quickest car of the meeting at a little over 152mph.


Yes Ray you're right 1959, got my dates mixed up there forgive me! The car also ran at Bathurst in March however, so that may be the occasion referred to. I noted the following in a primotipo article and given those speeds, the long downhill straight at Bathurst in a car with similar power to the Cooper isnt far fetched really, who knows though. The Scott car had 185hp apparently according to our notes chatting with people who were involved.

The Tornado turned the tables on Mildrens Cooper the following day at Gnoo Blas, Orange when Gray won the ‘Canoblas Trophy’ a 55 mile race with the Cooper second, the event contested by 17 cars. Tornado was timed at 153mph and Mildren’s 2 litre Cooper T43 Climax at 145mph.



#44 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 07:12

Reviving an old thread.

As far as research can tell me, the fastest ever quarter mile powered by a grey motor (regardless of body type... door car, FED etc) is Barry Goong's 11.49s (D/Dragster, 1970 Nationals). If anyone knows of a quicker time, please share.

Part of the reason for my curiosity is my FED project. To race in Modified, I am going to need to make the grey pull a 10.99s or quicker pass. As far as I can tell, that would need it to be the world's fastest grey, by 0.5 seconds. I've got Eldred, Phil and Hedley helping, but think it will still be a pretty fair challenge.

Cheers,
Harv

With modern glued up tracks as well as better tyres your goal is quite achievable. 



#45 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 07:24

According to legend, the crank used was the Aussie 1958-1961 Vauxhall Cresta PA  2262cc unit. From what I understand, this is the same crank as that used in the earlier Cresta E vehicles, though I am no Vauxhall expert. The larger 2651cc engines used in the later PAs and early PBs, later bored out to 3293cc units in PBs apparently have a different setup for the dizzy/oil pump drive (similar to the later Holden red motor) and are not used.

 

I suspect that if you tried buying a Cresta motor nowadays and let slip that you were putting the crank into a Holden grey motor, the Vauxhall guys would run you out of town with torches and pitchforks  :lol: .

 

Cheers,

Harv

AFAIK all E series and early Cresta 138 engines are the ones used.  The 2.6/ 3.3 is a 7 main crank.  Like comparing a grey with a red. And they had 12 port heads as well. From the little I know quite a decent engine,, except for rear main seal leaks

And junk  E series engines are not that hard to find. Though then is the crank any good. A friend [a Vauxhall nut] has several that he will never use.



#46 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 07:30

Have been collecting parts for this one for a while. Plan at this stage is a IHRA-compliant FED chassis, which will let me run at Eastern Creek. It's about 85% done. Grey motor has been cleaned up and bored out to 3.25" bore. One cylinder had a casting inclusion (that only showed up at final hone :( ) so that cylinder got sleeved. Virgin crank has been cracked tested and spun down to suit Nissan bearings. Eagle rods are now floating on the big end and location controlled on the little end. Custom forged slugs should see compression around 9.5:1. Was going to run a reproduction Repco head, but am still waiting after having paid my 50% deposit (... it's been four years). Have now found a genuine head, though still has the Vincent rockers. Type 110 Norman supercharger, aiming for around 10psi boost. McGee injection specifically made for the Repco head (though will run suck-through on the Norman). Thought about dry-sumping it but the complexity outweighs the benefit in a simple FED. Transmission is a HK/T Slide-and-Glide, toughened internally and shortened. Hilux diff shortened down to about 3' long with a spool with Commodore disks for simplicity. 15x10" slicks.

 

Aiming to come in around the 1300lb mark. I'm going to need around 220 crank ponies to make the 10.99. Mark Reik's standard-headed turbo'd grey pulls 204HP at the wheels (say 300 at the crank) on pump fuel so I'm figuring a crossflow head and a good slurp of methanol should make this possible.

 

Cheers,

Harv

Powerslides are about 50 years out of date. A Traumatic with 3 gears will make you faster. Though you need someone to make them semi reliable. But they absorb less power and some use them behind 308s.  Or a torqueflite, BW55  C4 etc. All bvetter trannys but you need a conversion kit.



#47 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 07:55

 

I caught up with Ray Eldershaw today – a real gentleman.

 

 

Ray built the Muir grey motor with a target of 140BHP and 120mph down Bathurst’s Conrod Straight. Ray was confident of his tuning, and took only three SU needles with him to the mountain. In an early practice session, the vehicle ran the tacho to 6500rpm. Ray questioned the tacho’s accuracy, only for Muir to reply that it had been recently rebuilt. Confirmation from the circuit indicated a healthy 128mph. The car however was sluggish on the mountain, and a different cam was swapped in for racing. The engine raced for some 18 months before being trialed on Don Schroeder’s (sp?) Town and Country dyno at Parramatta, returning 142BHP in its well-worn state. The dyno owner indicated it was the most powerful run seen on the dyno, and the first to get the dyno warm.

 

 

I was also curious about the driveline, and queried the gearbox used. Power was run through a near-standard GMH three-speed crashbox. Double-row FAG bearings were fitted to the rear of the box (as Holden did during the FB Holden run), whilst bearings for the front of the box were chosen to have the most number of balls possible. They early steel extension housings were believed to be stronger than the later alloy extensions. Gardner and Siemens (sp?) from Woolloomooloo machined a steel sleeve for the extensions (with a slot for the speedo drive) that ran forward and pressed on the rear bearing outer race. This assisted in reducing mainshaft movement. Synchro springs were stretched slightly before installation, a practice recommended in FB/EK Service Bulletins. Vauxhall synchro strings were rumoured to be stronger, though Ray did not use them. The synchro snap rings were not tack welded in place. The differentials were near standard, though the later EJ Holden flanged joints were used. The FJ axles had a tendency to snap. Testing showed that the cracks originated from the keyway ends. Dufor was consulted, and it was found that the manufacturing process included a process which knocked the keyway ends, making a stress riser. Dufor changed the manufacturing process to remove the knocking process. Tailshafts were standard, with Ray not seeing a tailshaft failure until the red-motored EH S4.

 

 

 

All up, the best I have seen to date remains Riek's 204rwhp and 12.789 quarter, and Telford's 133mph.


Cheers,

Harv

 

EJ Diffs were the same as FB EK. The modified and better diff was the EH on ones with the U Bolt clamps on the unis. They came in initially 2 ratios 3.55 and 3.36. Later 3.08 and 2.78 plus the not so rare 3.90. And they were stronger than made out as I used one for a year with a 400hp Chev,, gently. Used them in the Torana IP car as well. I learnt how to lock them so they did not fail,, I was still using diffs I welded in the 70s around 2015

Early diffs came in 3.89 and FB on 3.55. Everything about them is weaker, though apart from the uni they interchange. In the  early70s the speedway sedan I helped on used both ratios, 3.55 was as described and the 3.89 the only difference was the uni cups so we simply changed them. 

I have never seen a FJ axle break the splines. [Though have had very little to with them since about 72. Have seen them break outside the bearing,, and have seen them simply not coming apart as they have fused together. And this with the genuine Holden hub puller. And that was in the sixties!! Got another housing and gassed off the tube to save the diff centre

GpN earlies have to use later axles with an adapter to use FJ rims. Not ideal but better than the original disaster. Keyed hubs on any car are at best dangerous when used remotely hard. And LOTS of vehicles used them up to the 70s on some Mopars


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 14 January 2023 - 08:01.


#48 theotherharv

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Posted 23 January 2023 - 00:50

An update on the quickest grey motor quarter mile pass. At the 27th of January 1980 meeting at Surfers Paradise (Ampol 3), Dennis Paul ran a 10.83s quarter mile pass in the grey powered Resurrection FED in E/dragster. The FED normally ran around 11.3, but the stars aligned for this run. He beat a red-motored powered T-bucket in this round, but was beaten in the subsequent round.

 

The grey had been taken out to 3.25” bore (155ci), running 12.5:1 Repco pistons with full floating pins. Factory cylinder head, ported and oversized red motor valves with home-made pedestal roller rockers. Lightened steel flywheel and large harmonic balancer. Bert Jones cam. Triple 1½” SUs on alky. Bosch twin-point dizzy. Standard rods, sand blasted (similar to shot peining in intent). Standard crank, balanced with main cap braces. Custom HV oil pump using Holden 308 gears. All-synchro 3-speed using only second and top. Shortened banjo running a 4.1:1 fine spline centre.

 

I have absolutely no reason to doubt Dennis’ story, as the background, equipment and era match up (some stories I hear about other grey powered records do not stack up for power/weight). I’d be interested though if anyone has either records from the track (unlikely), or if there was any magazine coverage of the event.

 

Cheers,

Harv