4189 replies to this topic

[kumo7]

At High downforce tracks with shorter straights and lower power sensitivity MCL33 is capable of being on par with fellow midfield rivals. Poor aero efficiency means it falls behind on tracks with more/longer straights. Also according to McLaren an aerodynamic issue prevents them from making the car work properly in medium downforce configuration.

In short in Low downforce configuration there is too much drag, in medium downforce configuration the car does not generate enough downforce because of an aerodynamic issue which they cannot fix this season.

 

I kinda thought that this is the case, but pleasantly surprised by the difference between SPA and MONZA. At Monza OK, just on qualifying, Fernando Alonso was on 13th. Not bad for your description, and my expectation.

 

I whole thought it might be 17 or 18th like FP sessions. Kinda thought McLaren put something out of their bag finally.

[Quickshifter]

I kinda thought that this is the case, but pleasantly surprised by the difference between SPA and MONZA. At Monza OK, just on qualifying, Fernando Alonso was on 13th. Not bad for your description, and my expectation.

I whole thought it might be 17 or 18th like FP sessions. Kinda thought McLaren put something out of their bag finally.

Alonso claimed in Monza that Mclaren found a new setup direction at low downforce tracks which should help them a little.

[kumo7]

Sochi could be the place this can make a bit more sense. 

The Mac has still rooms to take performance out of 33.

[AlexS]

So back to "best chassis" ?

[kumo7]

So back to "best chassis" ?

 

 

Forget it!

 

Evolution above Revolution.

Edited by kumo7, 18 September 2018 - 04:39.

[PeterScandlyn]

Have to say that despite the warm and fuzzy feeling Aloso-love, it was still a $h!t performance.

 

Glad it's only Fred's sponsor who is being screwed.

[kosmos]

 

McLaren considers extreme set-up for Russian GP

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-considers-extreme-set-up-for-russian-gp/3179442/

 

 

 

I say go for it, maybe with Stoffel and play it safe with Fernando.

[Quickshifter]

I say go for it, maybe with Stoffel and play it safe with Fernando.

McLaren have nothing to loose at Sochi. May be they will take engine grid penalties too with Alonso. Alonso himself liked the direction with setup in Monza. I say go for it with both cars. The long straights of Sochi needs extreme measures from McLaren to try and get something out of Sochi imho. Defending a position is impossible without straight-line speed at Sochi.

[keshav]

It looks good for McLaren to fend of Force India and take the 6th slot in the constructors. That’ll be amazing for the team.

[Louis Mr. F1]

So back to "best chassis" ?

 

"McLaren has for too long relied on clearly superior outside elements: drivers, engine partner etc. - to get them their results.  They have always had the best and this allows them to overlook their own weaknesses.  This season, they preferred to believe that it was our engine that was off the pace.  That was their way of avoiding responsibility.  the car always lacked balance.  The drivers had to run with huge downforce.  To hide an obvious chassis problem, McLaren chose to blame the engine."  

 

 

Who said this? 

Peugeot's sporting director Jean Pierre Jabouille at the end of 1994, after the premature split of the McLaren - Peugeot partnership due to poor results. 

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?  

[pacificquay]

"McLaren has for too long relied on clearly superior outside elements: drivers, engine partner etc. - to get them their results.  They have always had the best and this allows them to overlook their own weaknesses.  This season, they preferred to believe that it was our engine that was off the pace.  That was their way of avoiding responsibility.  the car always lacked balance.  The drivers had to run with huge downforce.  To hide an obvious chassis problem, McLaren chose to blame the engine."  
 
 
Who said this? 
Peugeot's sporting director Jean Pierre Jabouille at the end of 1994, after the premature split of the McLaren - Peugeot partnership due to poor results. 
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?  

Yeah, but he was talking rubbish - the Peugeot engine blew up spectacularly every other race and the car was much better on twisty tracks than power ones...

[mclarensmps]

"McLaren has for too long relied on clearly superior outside elements: drivers, engine partner etc. - to get them their results.  They have always had the best and this allows them to overlook their own weaknesses.  This season, they preferred to believe that it was our engine that was off the pace.  That was their way of avoiding responsibility.  the car always lacked balance.  The drivers had to run with huge downforce.  To hide an obvious chassis problem, McLaren chose to blame the engine."  

 

 

Who said this? 

Peugeot's sporting director Jean Pierre Jabouille at the end of 1994, after the premature split of the McLaren - Peugeot partnership due to poor results. 

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?  

 

 

Right, and in which direction did McLaren go in the next 5 years, and which direction did Peugeot go?

 

IMO, the Honda split was good for both parties, McLaren would not have put a plan in place to sort themselves out had their glaring deficiencies not been seen with a better powerplant, and Honda didn't have to work under intense scrutiny for 1 year (and anyone who thinks RB and Honda is going to be all flowers and rainbows is going to be in for a shock).

[Hamm]

Mclaren, also very focused on the development of the car next year, which, from the latest rumors from Woking, would seem a clear step forward compared to the disappointing MCL33.
https://www.f1analis...a-come.html?m=1

[Bliman]

Mclaren, also very focused on the development of the car next year, which, from the latest rumors from Woking, would seem a clear step forward compared to the disappointing MCL33.
https://www.f1analis...a-come.html?m=1

I hope so. They basically sacrified this season for next year.

[Kev00]

Mclaren, also very focused on the development of the car next year, which, from the latest rumors from Woking, would seem a clear step forward compared to the disappointing MCL33.
https://www.f1analis...a-come.html?m=1

I’ll believe it when I see it. McLaren haven’t made a clear step forward since 2012.

[engineblock1]

I think one has to be mega pessimist not to expect improvement next year. This year, McLaren were caught out by having to run a very draggy car due to integration of Renault engine, which happened to be bulkier than Honda engine. None of the drivers have complained about driverability. The quick fix has held it back, and this season hopefully was sufficient to figure that out.

The only negative thing happening for McLaren I anticipate is the embarrassment caused by a superior Honda engine. Even if McLaren improves, the negative air would surround it for ditching Honda, which might jump Renault engine. Although Renault also has hired some key Ferrari/Merc PU engineers lately, but cannot expect them to roll out improvements early in next season.

[FullOppositeLock]

Alonso is leaving and will be replaced by Sainz. There’s a few tenths lost already.

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 20 September 2018 - 15:57.

[jwill189]

Mclaren, also very focused on the development of the car next year, which, from the latest rumors from Woking, would seem a clear step forward compared to the disappointing MCL33.
https://www.f1analis...a-come.html?m=1

 

Just a clear step forward?  This car is slower than last year's while every other team has made improvements.

[TheMessiah]

My own personal expectations for next year are pretty low. They don't seem to have identified the issue/issues effecting this years car, certainly thats what they are saying in the media. If the haven't identified them then how do they develop a car for next year without it been hamstrung with the same issues this years and previous years cars have had??.

[Celloman]

My own personal expectations for next year are pretty low. They don't seem to have identified the issue/issues effecting this years car, certainly thats what they are saying in the media. If the haven't identified them then how do they develop a car for next year without it been hamstrung with the same issues this years and previous years cars have had??.

Well the main issue is pretty clear: poor aero efficiency. You just have to look at results from Singapore and compare those to Spa and Monza. At Monza even Williams managed to lap quicker than McLaren somehow, which speaks volumes about how draggy the car is.

[TheMessiah]

Well the main issue is pretty clear: poor aero efficiency. You just have to look at results from Singapore and compare those to Spa and Monza. At Monza even Williams managed to lap quicker than McLaren somehow, which speaks volumes about how draggy the car is.

 

While it might be clear they seem to have a very major issue solving it.

[Maustinsj]

I was under the impression that they had identified how to solve it - completely redesign the car.

[kumo7]

Evolution above Revolution/ 

[Gary Davies]

Well the main issue is pretty clear: poor aero efficiency. You just have to look at results from Singapore and compare those to Spa and Monza. At Monza even Williams managed to lap quicker than McLaren somehow, which speaks volumes about how draggy the car is.

Quite. And although something like this has been highlighted before, I find it so hard to understand why the current McLaren is apparent so draggy, so aerodynamically inefficient, in light of all the excited things McLaren were saying about Prodromou at the time he (re)joined them in 2014. Here, for example, is Boullier in September 2014: “Peter has proved beyond doubt that he’s one of the most capable and intelligent engineers in Formula 1, and everyone at McLaren is looking forward to the contribution he’ll make as we push ahead with our ambitious plans for the future.”

 

And here's some high praise, as reported in The Observer 12 October 2013: "It is understood Prodromou was in line to succeed Adrian Newey at Red Bull whenever the team's chief technical officer decided to step down. Prodromou has been a key player in Red Bull's dominance, with the team on the brink of winning a fourth consecutive drivers' title through Sebastian Vettel in Japan this weekend."

 

What the heck went wrong? Who got the wrong end of the stick? Was Prodromou never any good (I find that hard to believe)? Or do we look at the reportedly toxic atmosphere inside McLaren's engineering department.

 

Whatever... here we have a widely acclaimed aero specialist with a hand in a car widely believed to be the F1 equivalent of a house brick on wheels. There's a huge disconnect here somewhere. 

[MrRat]

Well the main issue is pretty clear: poor aero efficiency. You just have to look at results from Singapore and compare those to Spa and Monza. At Monza even Williams managed to lap quicker than McLaren somehow, which speaks volumes about how draggy the car is.
 

Not really. It can also be the gear ratio issue that has been confirmed now.  

[Stephane]

How could they mess the gear ratios in the fifth year of the current PU regs ?

[alpes]

Quite. And although something like this has been highlighted before, I find it so hard to understand why the current McLaren is apparent so draggy, so aerodynamically inefficient, in light of all the excited things McLaren were saying about Prodromou at the time he (re)joined them in 2014. Here, for example, is Boullier in September 2014: “Peter has proved beyond doubt that he’s one of the most capable and intelligent engineers in Formula 1, and everyone at McLaren is looking forward to the contribution he’ll make as we push ahead with our ambitious plans for the future.”

And here's some high praise, as reported in The Observer 12 October 2013: "It is understood Prodromou was in line to succeed Adrian Newey at Red Bull whenever the team's chief technical officer decided to step down. Prodromou has been a key player in Red Bull's dominance, with the team on the brink of winning a fourth consecutive drivers' title through Sebastian Vettel in Japan this weekend."

What the heck went wrong? Who got the wrong end of the stick? Was Prodromou never any good (I find that hard to believe)? Or do we look at the reportedly toxic atmosphere inside McLaren's engineering department.

Whatever... here we have a widely acclaimed aero specialist with a hand in a car widely believed to be the F1 equivalent of a house brick on wheels. There's a huge disconnect here somewhere.

One explanation I think can be the fact that Prodromu started the new concept with McLaren during Honda years. This had a double effect, on one hand they were never in a position to test properly during winter on the other hand they blamed solely Honda for lack of speed.
And this is without taking in consideration the state of the team during these years.
Next year should be a good measuring stick for what Prodromu can do

[as65p]

How could they mess the gear ratios in the fifth year of the current PU regs ?

The only half plausible reason would be the differences in powerbands / power delivery between Honda and Renault engines. Toro Rosso seems to have no such troubles, but they had already experience with two different engines in this era and where probably more aware of that problem.

[Owen]

Whatever... here we have a widely acclaimed aero specialist with a hand in a car widely believed to be the F1 equivalent of a house brick on wheels. There's a huge disconnect here somewhere. 

Only thing I could suggest here is simulation tools for CFD. They need to be the best and that takes resources.

Do McLaren have the best? I'm currently not sure.

[Peter Perfect]

Only thing I could suggest here is simulation tools for CFD. They need to be the best and that takes resources.

Do McLaren have the best? I'm currently not sure.

 

From my understanding Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull Technologies all have state of the art simulation rigs/tools. If McLaren are serious about joining the top table and the resource cap comes into play they'll need to pump in some serious r&d money soon otherwise they'll never be able to complete.

[BertoC]

The only half plausible reason would be the differences in powerbands / power delivery between Honda and Renault engines. Toro Rosso seems to have no such troubles, but they had already experience with two different engines in this era and where probably more aware of that problem.

 

To be fair, Mclaren also had two different engines in this era, Mercedes and Honda.

[engineblock1]

Yeah, but he was talking rubbish - the Peugeot engine blew up spectacularly every other race and the car was much better on twisty tracks than power ones...

But wasn't it also the case with Honda between 2015-2017 too? There were some good races on tracks requiring lesser engine focus.

[Eff1]

It would be nice to see McLaren closer to the front next year but I fear the glory days are long gone, similar to Williams best they can hope to achieve is a P4 in the WCC. The gulf between the top 3 and the rest is insurmountable.

[kumo7]

I think McLaren will find out the balance between Drug, Rake, Engine power and drivability. We will see, 

I always thought that the McLaren Cars in the last decade shaped the car to accommodate smooth horizontal air flow around the car, while Red Bull especially make the ar push the floor from above, in the same period. 

Obviously I believe McLaren as its reasons o do what thy did, but seen from the result I should hope McLaren accept RedBull did better in scoring more points...

[HP]

I think one has to be mega pessimist not to expect improvement next year. This year, McLaren were caught out by having to run a very draggy car due to integration of Renault engine, which happened to be bulkier than Honda engine. None of the drivers have complained about driverability. The quick fix has held it back, and this season hopefully was sufficient to figure that out.

The only negative thing happening for McLaren I anticipate is the embarrassment caused by a superior Honda engine. Even if McLaren improves, the negative air would surround it for ditching Honda, which might jump Renault engine. Although Renault also has hired some key Ferrari/Merc PU engineers lately, but cannot expect them to roll out improvements early in next season.

McLaren in it's best days had one of the biggest work forces behind them. That isn't the case anymore. So what can be expected of them realistically?

[mclarensmps]

According to Formula Money, McLaren still has one of the biggest workforces behind them. Either third or fourth; and in the same category as Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull. There is a big fall off behind them in terms of absolute numbers.

[jwill189]

There is a big fall off behind them in terms of absolute numbers.

 

While that is true, most of the smaller teams have become satellites of the powerhouses and don't have to do much in terms of R&D.

[pizzalover]

I think McLaren will find out the balance between Drug, Rake, Engine power and drivability. 

 

 

Drugs eh? That would explain the erratic performance and disappointing results.   

[jwill189]

Drugs eh? That would explain the erratic performance and disappointing results.   

 

It's inside all of those Freddos.

[Risil]

I think it's time for a new thread. This way.