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History in the Making - a 'Quadruple Crown of Motor Sport'?


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#51 Bob Riebe

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 21:06

Well Mario Andretti came closest to a real quad crown title

Daytona 500

Indianapolis 500

F-1 Title

BUT

No LeMans

 

Of course A.J. Foyt won

Daytona 500

Indianapolis 500

LeMans

BUT

No F-1 title or race.



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#52 Alan Lewis

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Posted 18 June 2018 - 21:06

How does one drive a world?

DCN


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You get a whip and you walk behind it shouting: "Garn!"
[/Spike Milligan]

#53 Dave Ware

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 00:25

Since the early '70s I have understood the triple crown to be the WDC, Indy, and Le Mans.  Sure don't remember where I picked that up.  Had to have read it somewhere.  Maybe from what Doug wrote.   Or maybe Wide World of Sports. 

 

I am quite sure (though I know that I can't always trust my memory) that USAC had it's own triple crown, and promoted it as such.  It was the 500-mile races, Indy, Pocono, and Ontario.  (Which actually makes some sense, from a promotional standpoint.)  Perhaps this is where that Pocono 500 reference that Doug alluded to came from. 



#54 Stephen W

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:09

Is Fernando Alonso the first driver to have publicly sought this Triple Crown? I don’t think Graham Hill had any such thoughts when he drove for Matra.

 

I thought Mario Andretti had a tilt at it and said he was trying to emulate Graham Hill's "Triple Crown".



#55 fer312t

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 06:58

There is so much twaddle being spared around in the general media - and the inexperienced specialist media - about this mythical 'Triple Crown' involving victory in the Le Mans 24-Hour race, victory at Indy...and victory in the Monaco GP...?     :confused:

 

You're being much too crotchety...

In the modern age, as racing plays out, for the most part, in miserably separate spheres, it is is only natural that such a trifecta should take on more weight.

I think it should be heartily celebrated, and I for one look forward to any sort of mythical groupings that await us in the future... :wave:



#56 john aston

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 07:36

Disagree - because some lazy hack didn't do his (or her in the case of The Times )research properly why should we blithely accept  an incorrect and (slightly ) devalued version of a long established and commonly understood accolade ? Breaking news  - new definitions of hat trick and hole in one.....



#57 Geoff E

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 07:51

Breaking news  - new definitions of hat trick and hole in one.....


The tennis people have already redefined "Grand Slam".

#58 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 07:52

 

... the 'triple crown': the world championship plus victory in the classic races at Le Mans and Indianapolis.

Courtenay Edwards, reviewing 'Graham' - Sunday Telegraph, November 7th 1976.

 

Andretti had hoped to equal the feat of the late Graham Hill by being only the second racing driver to win the 'triple crown' of the world championship, Indianapolis and Le Mans.

Colin Dryden's report on the first day of Le Mans - Sunday Telegraph, June 20th 1982.

 

Mario Andretti, the 60-year-old former Formula One world champion and Indianapolis 500 winner attempting to join Graham Hill as the only winner of the sport's Triple Crown ...

Andrew Baker on Le Mans - Daily Telegraph, June 19th 2000.

 

He held the record of being the only driver to win motor racing's 'triple crown' - the world championship, the Indianapolis 500 and the Le Mans 24-hour race.

Report of Graham's plane crash - Sunday Times, November 30th 1975.

 

Holder of the triple crown of the motor racing track - twice Grand Prix world champion in 1962 and 1968, winner of the gruelling Indianapolis 500 and conqueror of Le Mans ...

Introduction to an interview with Bette Hill by Geoffrey Green - The Times, November 1st 1976.

 

Andretti will attempt to emulate Graham Hill, the only driver to win the 'triple crown' of the F1 title, Indy 500 and Le Mans.

Season preview by David Kent - Daily Mail, January 13th 2000.

 

Graham Hill ... would go on to claim a unique motor racing "triple crown", adding the Le Mans 24 Hours to his two Formula One world titles and Indy.

Indianapolis preview by Damien Smith - The Times, May 26th 2011

 

"... he is still the only man to win the triple crown of the Formula One championship, Le Mans and the Indianapolis 500."

Bette Hill quoted in a feature by Paul Weaver on Damon joining Williams - The Guardian, March 13th 1993.

 

Hill remains the only driver to have won the triple crown of F1 title, Indianapolis 500 and Le Mans 24 Hour.

From a 'Frozen in Time' picture description (NGH and JYS in conversation with Britt Ekland and Peter Sellers in Monaco, 1966) - The Guardian, March 3rd 2003.

 

Circumstantially this idea that the 'triple crown' includes Monaco may have come from a feature on Indianapolis by David Tremayne, published in The Independent on Sunday, May 26th 1995.

 

They are unofficially known as the Triple Crown, the three oldest-established and most famous races of them all. The Indianapolis 500, birth date 1911; the Le Mans 24 Hours, 1923; the Monaco Grand Prix, started in 1929. Only one man, Graham Hill, has worn the crown, winning Indy in 1966, Le Mans in 1972, and Monaco five times between 1963 and 1969.

I'm pretty sure the organisers of the Italian and (at the time) the French GPs would have taken issue with that ...  ;)

 

https://www.independ...wn-1349284.html

 

Having said that, that article was the only one which turned up on a search of the Gale and ProQuest databases for "Graham Hill" + "triple crown" which mentioned Monaco.



#59 ChrisJson

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 08:18

Thank you Doug and Richard! I now think otherwise.

 

Christer



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#60 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 09:10

It's pretty logical, really...

The Formula One world put a lot more emphasis on the Championship long before anyone else did. So tying it with the two major races makes sense.

#61 JtP2

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 12:14

PRpersons in an attempt at a job creation scheme seem to decide what combination of races matter



#62 Gary Davies

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:04

I would venture to suggest that in Fernando's case it is a combination of his interest in all forms of the sport and his desire to prove that he's more than just the one-trick pony role forced on him by recent F1. Oval racing is an art in itself - certainly much more than the 'turning left a few hundred times' cliché - and very few drivers in recent years have been able to succeed consistently on all three sorts of circuits which comprise the current IndyCar series. There are oval specialists and road/street racing specialists, but the combination of all three is hard to achieve. Oddly enough, some of the best in recent years - Franchitti, Dixon, Castroneves, Power, Kanaan and Montoya for example - came from road racing backgrounds and have conquered oval racing. And as was obvious today - and at Indy last year - Fernando loves the less regimented and less hidebound atmosphere outside F1. When he's achieved everything he wants on the tracks I wouldn't put it past him to give the Dakar and/or the Monte a go ...

When I speed read Richard's post I initially read 'hidebound' as 'hideous'. I suppose in context, that might be a more apposite adjective than the one Richard used!  :yawnface:



#63 D28

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:45

To have any real meaning the Triple Crown cannot be redefined as the mood strikes. And Monaco just isn't in the same league as the other two races. A street race which was held intermittently in the first 5 years of F1 or run for sports cars, it is deficient in running time.

I believe the redefinition occurred after Andretti and J Villeneuve retired without achieving the feat and it looked as though no one would seriously challenge it; journalists began promoting Monaco with the hope that more eligible. drivers would provide stories.

 

But of the 10 drivers I mentioned above having completed 2/3 of the feat, redefining it for Monaco would eliminate Clark, M Andretti, E Fittipaldi, J Villeneuve, Hawthorn and P Hill. These would be replaced By M Trintignant , McLaren and T Nuvolari (certainly a plus) and others. Still I prefer the original definition and that group of drivers and think this represents Graham Hill's efforts admirably.

But the momentum is with Monaco whatever anyone here cares to say.


Edited by D28, 19 June 2018 - 14:01.


#64 pacificquay

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Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:33

 Is this an attempt to cover up the fact that he struggles to out qualify Vandoorne?

 

16-3 last season and 7-0 this season doesn't meet my definition of struggling....



#65 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 13:25

Fine, I have no problem including Tazio on any list of racing achievements. Indy is the only major race he didn't win or even appear in. Had not the war intervened he probably would have. And he did win in the US, at the Vanderbilt Cup race. 

And the Mille Miglia, Targa and RAC Tourist Trophy. Now I could start on a Septuple Crown, yet is it also not sign of times. Current drivers are so occupied with one series nowadays, Alonso's participation is a rarity.

 

Hill's triple crown due to the danger and risks of the time just exceptionable. Other drivers attained other champion feats.



#66 Jim Thurman

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 22:52

And a few others, but I don't believe Phil Hill ever appeared at Indy in a racing capacity. Can't remember him doing any ovals, but the argument here seems to be Indy.

 

Phil Hill didn't race at Indianapolis Motor Speedway, but he did race on ovals, and dirt ovals at that. He drove a midget in a few races and also raced sports cars on the Carrell Speedway oval.



#67 Jim Thurman

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Posted 20 June 2018 - 22:59

 

In much more recent years the Masten Gregory fan made a fuss here about this 'Trifecta' actually including - somehow - the Pocono '500'for reasons too tediously wearing for me to recall.

 

 

This one has me baffled  :confused:  I didn't recall any such fuss and in searching can't find him (Joe Fan) making any reference about Pocono aside from a NASCAR driver answering him that Pocono was the toughest track. Certainly nothing turned up where he was arguing about Pocono being part of this particular triple crown (however, it was part of a Triple Crown, see below).

 

Imagining quarrelsome Americans now Doug? Perhaps caused by shed surfing too soon after consuming Bulgarian wine?   ;)  I'm not sure what the timetable is for that, unlike eating and swimming.

 

As David Ware pointed out, Pocono was part of the USAC Triple Crown at one point (500-mile races at IMS, Pocono and Ontario Motor Speedway), which was absolutely known in its time.



#68 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 15:21

I would venture to suggest that in Fernando's case it is a combination of his interest in all forms of the sport and his desire to prove that he's more than just the one-trick pony role forced on him by recent F1. Oval racing is an art in itself - certainly much more than the 'turning left a few hundred times' cliché - and very few drivers in recent years have been able to succeed consistently on all three sorts of circuits which comprise the current IndyCar series. There are oval specialists and road/street racing specialists, but the combination of all three is hard to achieve. Oddly enough, some of the best in recent years - Franchitti, Dixon, Castroneves, Power, Kanaan and Montoya for example - came from road racing backgrounds and have conquered oval racing. And as was obvious today - and at Indy last year - Fernando loves the less regimented and less hidebound atmosphere outside F1. When he's achieved everything he wants on the tracks I wouldn't put it past him to give the Dakar and/or the Monte a go ...

Told ya ...  ;)

 

https://www.autospor...paration-effort



#69 E1pix

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 20:30

Le Mans is awesome, a real, proper motor race, that I understand but I'm totally mystified why a Formula One world champion would be the slightest bit interested in risking their safety in an oval race. They don't need the money and I just don't see what they can gain from turning left a few hundred times in an event that is much more a dangerous, cheap show than a car race.  :well:

I lost a dear friend and mentor in getting a "simple left turn" wrong, just once -- so your comment is not only ignorant, but honestly really pisses me off.

There is nothing easy about deciding exactly when and how to turn in at 230+ mph. Try it and see.

#70 john aston

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 07:03

Clay Reggazoni might have said 'it's a-easy - left -a , left-a , left' but Dan  Gurney said it was far from easy' when you are racing against the best drivers in the world at turning left.'

 

It's a typical Eurocentric comment which shows more uninformed and snide elitism than insight. I've seen some oval stuff in the USA and the fact that average speeds were higher than the top speed in some Grands Prix   and  that some drivers I thought were good in F1 and elsewhere were nowhere still resonates.

 

Makes you wonder why Lotus bothered all those years ago at Indy ... 



#71 Collombin

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:42

Clay Reggazoni might have said 'it's a-easy - left -a , left-a , left'


I don't think Clay found turn 3 all that easy.

#72 BiggestBuddyLazierFan

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 21:09

Hmm - WDC?

"World Drivers' Championship".

How does one drive a world?

And the really important factor is that it is a World Championship. Being a Drivers' Championship is surely secondary to that global status?

So shouldn't it really be expressed as Drivers' World Championship - DWC?

Grumpy Old Git.

DCN


Alonso drivers the World. He drove it to the beleif that tripple crown actually exist.

And that he will be crowned one day (last sunday in May) with this crown that would be put on his head, by Non other than Tony George!

#73 B Squared

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 23:53

Makes you wonder why Lotus bothered all those years ago at Indy ...

No wondering at all, Colin Chapman loved the money that was available from Indy success.

#74 D28

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 00:58

No wondering at all, Colin Chapman loved the money that was available from Indy success.

Also Enzo Ferrari who longed for success in this world famous race. He sent a team there in 1952 with Ascari. And as late as 1986 went to the trouble of having a car designed and  tested though never  raced.


Edited by D28, 25 August 2019 - 03:51.


#75 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 07:56

I can fully understand the "elitist" sneering at oval racing - having grown up in Europe, on a diet of circuit racing designed to imitate real road racing, my love for the sport generated from the respect for the driver's ability to negotiate all kinds of different corners, left and right, fast and slow, uphill and down the slope, often in quick succession; then, when I got older, I learned to appreciate the finer points of the art of driving, the gear changing, the braking, setting up of suspensions, car development in general. Much of that is missing in oval racing, which makes it look deceptively "easy". I don't really remember how I got over that when I began to develop an interest in the Indy 500, but I do vividly remember my shock when, delving into the history of the sport "over there", I discovered that much of the racing prior to the seventies was done on DIRT ovals! Now, THAT I found very difficult to stomach, evoking pictures of carts drawn by donkeys on medieval country roads!! Eventually, I got to SEE powerful cars racing on a dirt track, and that's all she wrote - I was forever smitten.

 

When things LOOK easy, it is often doubly difficult to do well, because tiny nuances make all the difference between top and flop. I don't remember whether it was Alberto Ascari or Jimmy Clark who said something along the lines of: "I am the World Champion, I ought to do well at EVERY circuit in the world, and that includes Indianapolis". Setting up a car for an oval is fiendishly difficult, and traffic is another problem that Europeans never experience in this intensity. I used to laugh at the discussions that took place some time in the eighties, when it was announced that the Monaco GP should start more than twenty cars - they habitually run more than two dozen cars on a ONE-MILE track in the US! For a real (or, better perhaps, "unreal") experience of a "busy oval", try short track racing, like the Little 500 on Anderson Speedway in Indiana: 33 Sprint cars (power to weight ratio comparable to F 1) racing for several hours on a QUARTER-MILE track - yep, folks, that's about the perimeter of a football field. Look it up on YT, it's fun to watch :smoking:


Edited by Michael Ferner, 25 August 2019 - 08:20.