2098 replies to this topic

[RPM40]

https://twitter.com/...967538137583616

[GreenMachine]

On Autosport now, and probably everywhere!!

No great surprise, as the Renault chassis develops(?) more stresses were bound to arise particularly if the engine remains behind Merc and Ferrari.

The move is a risk, but one worth taking.  Being the 'works' entry should be worth half a second, no?

[Muzzyf1]

The extra stress honda will be under will give return to McLaren woes

[GoldenColt]

According to AMuS it's just a two year stopgap until Porsche enters F1.

[FirstnameLastname]

According to AMuS it's just a two year stopgap until Porsche enters F1.

And then McLaren pick back up the Honda deal

[Disgrace]

You have to give respect to Honda that they've landed this deal, but I don't think they'll succeed. This is their fourth year, we're a third of the way through the season, and they are incurring component use penalties again. They are not in a position to complete a season without accumulating penalties. They are not even close.

 

So I think Red Bull will go backwards next year. The real question mark is over the change in engine regulations. My view is that there is a serious possibility they'll end up back at square one, given how badly wrong Honda have performed under the current rules. And if they thought McLaren or Toro Rosso were demanding customers...

[Timstr11]

According to AMuS it's just a two year stopgap until Porsche enters F1.

 

Porsche has not decided to enter F1.

 

I think it's 2 years because the after that there will be completely new engine and car regulations and everyone will want to keep their options open to re-negotiate.

[JeePee]

You have to give respect to Honda that they've landed this deal, but I don't think they'll succeed. This is their fourth year, we're a third of the way through the season, and they are incurring component use penalties again. They are not in a position to complete a season without accumulating penalties. They are not even close.

 

So I think Red Bull will go backwards next year. The real question mark is over the change in engine regulations. My view is that there is a serious possibility they'll end up back at square one, given how badly wrong Honda have performed under the current rules. And if they thought McLaren or Toro Rosso were demanding customers...

Even if they take an engine penalty now, they still end up behind Ferrari/Merc and in front of everyone else. The gap to the midfield is insane, with or without a Honda engine.

[NixxxoN]

Somewhat expected... But bad move for them IMO

Thats like putting a paydriver but with engines instead. They get a worse engine and money.

 

We will see next year Red Bull being less competitive and if McLaren can optimize the chassis for the Renault engine, we could well see things quite differently in the pecking order.

[rootten]

You have to give respect to Honda that they've landed this deal, but I don't think they'll succeed. This is their fourth year, we're a third of the way through the season, and they are incurring component use penalties again. They are not in a position to complete a season without accumulating penalties. They are not even close.

 

So I think Red Bull will go backwards next year. The real question mark is over the change in engine regulations. My view is that there is a serious possibility they'll end up back at square one, given how badly wrong Honda have performed under the current rules. And if they thought McLaren or Toro Rosso were demanding customers...

 

Hoda's biggest headache was MGU-H, wich will be gone come next engine regulations

[SenorSjon]

You have to give respect to Honda that they've landed this deal, but I don't think they'll succeed. This is their fourth year, we're a third of the way through the season, and they are incurring component use penalties again. They are not in a position to complete a season without accumulating penalties. They are not even close.

 

So I think Red Bull will go backwards next year. The real question mark is over the change in engine regulations. My view is that there is a serious possibility they'll end up back at square one, given how badly wrong Honda have performed under the current rules. And if they thought McLaren or Toro Rosso were demanding customers...

 

To be fair, the Renault units with much more km's under their belt testing (three teams), it still fails from time to time, it has a by now ancient MGU-K unit, that also still fails. For RB, there isn't much difference in penalties between Honda and Renault.

[Maxioos]

I'm glad for RBR, but I feel pity for McLaren. Don't know exactly why to be honest, it's just the streak of bad luck and wrong decisions the people inside the team that don't have influence on it don't deserve. I fear it will take a long time before McLaren is back on top.

I'm very curious about the STR next couple races. Last race they looked very fast. I can imagine by this decision there is going to be more in-season car updates for the STR to test and be best prepared for 2019 for both teams.

But, overall, I'm surprised by my own pity feeling for McLaren, apparently I like the team more than I thought or I'm just disappointed I don't see them join top 3 soon as I hoped we would for sake of the team and F1 in general. With current rumor about McLaren I fear it first will get worse before it gets better.

Don't know if it's off-topic for some, sorry than, but it's my biggest thought. For RBR it doesn't matter that much, I consider both quite equal and don't really care one or the other at current performance facts and RBR doesn't need/gets the money I expect that Mclaren got. I do think Renault and McLaren would benefit if RBR was driving same engine to compare performance own car against. Now it will be more a question for both to compare and know if they get maximal performance. Renault power unit will get less "top" data. And the company looses a big paying costumer.

From the 4 involved teams (McLaren, Renault, STR, RBR) it for sure looks like STR/RBR are the big winners with this deal just because of what the other lose instead of RBR possible gains (as it's not fact yet Honda PU will be great)

[Risil]

A show of confidence from Red Bull and Honda then. Exciting news!

[Jon83]

Even if they take an engine penalty now, they still end up behind Ferrari/Merc and in front of everyone else. The gap to the midfield is insane, with or without a Honda engine.

 

Not much good if you're finishing less races though.

[RPM40]

You have to give respect to Honda that they've landed this deal, but I don't think they'll succeed. This is their fourth year, we're a third of the way through the season, and they are incurring component use penalties again. They are not in a position to complete a season without accumulating penalties. They are not even close.

 

So I think Red Bull will go backwards next year. The real question mark is over the change in engine regulations. My view is that there is a serious possibility they'll end up back at square one, given how badly wrong Honda have performed under the current rules. And if they thought McLaren or Toro Rosso were demanding customers...

 

 

Only marginally worse than the Renault for Red Bull, who themselves are on the verge of component penalties. 

[SmallHorsey]

I'm glad for RBR, but I feel pity for McLaren. Don't know exactly why to be honest, it's just the streak of bad luck and wrong decisions the people inside the team that don't have influence on it don't deserve. I fear it will take a long time before McLaren is back on top.

I'm very curious about the STR next couple races. Last race they looked very fast. I can imagine by this decision there is going to be more in-season car updates for the STR to test and be best prepared for 2019 for both teams.

But, overall, I'm surprised by my own pity feeling for McLaren, apparently I like the team more than I thought or I'm just disappointed I don't see them join top 3 soon as I hoped we would for sake of the team and F1 in general. With current rumor about McLaren I fear it first will get worse before it gets better.

Don't know if it's off-topic for some, sorry than, but it's my biggest thought. For RBR it doesn't matter that much, I consider both quite equal and don't really care one or the other at current performance facts and RBR doesn't need/gets the money I expect that Mclaren got. I do think Renault and McLaren would benefit if RBR was driving same engine to compare performance own car against. Now it will be more a question for both to compare and know if they get maximal performance. Renault power unit will get less "top" data. And the company looses a big paying costumer.

From the 4 involved teams (McLaren, Renault, STR, RBR) it for sure looks like STR/RBR are the big winners with this deal just because of what the other lose instead of RBR possible gains (as it's not fact yet Honda PU will be great)

I don't reckon McLaren and Renault lose much. Obviously Renault will lose some money but they've already got a fair idea how their engine compares to the others. And it's not like either team will sit back and think, "Rightio, car's finished. Let's knock off early and have a beer". RBR already showed them how competitive you can be with the Renault unit.

[statman]

If Red Bull is in the same position relative to the top and the midfield, and Alonso again will be lapped by the RB, he will commit seppuku

[Gareth]

Seems like a shot to nothing for RB and for DM to me. I can see why they'd think they're unlikely to mount a championship challenge with a Renault engine with how that's gone in the current engine formula so far. If Honda works out, they bag a works deal and a chance to compete for championships, and benefit from the McLaren working through the teething pains. If it doesn't work out (assuming RB are getting similar funding to what McLaren received from Honda), DM gets two more years of no championship shot but at least he's not funding the team - then for 2021 they can see what options the new engine formula shakes out for them.

 

Given DM is RB's main sponsor, a couple of years of poor performance won't be as harmful for RB as it was/would be for McLaren.

 

I hope it works out for both of them. The more competitive engine manufacturers in F1 the better for the sport.

[AlexPrime]

I hope it works for them.

[noikeee]

So Max Verstappen and Daniel Ricciardo are the new Fernando Alonsos?

[HP]

Tasty news

 

If Red Bull is in the same position relative to the top and the midfield, and Alonso again will be lapped by the RB, he will commit seppuku

 

More like something will happen with him and McLaren

[GTA]

Smart decision all things considered. Red Bull have had a car with the best chassis in F1 for 8 of the last 9 years but it has not worked out.

 

It's time for change and regardless of how bad it turns out, they won't be in a situation like Mclaren since they are a far better team. 

[Disgrace]

Only marginally worse than the Renault for Red Bull, who themselves are on the verge of component penalties. 

 

Renault's range of outcomes is interesting. Red Bull are indeed slightly behind Toro Rosso, but McLaren and Renault are doing better than Red Bull by more.

[Ivanhoe]

Picture is a bit distorted as Max added some extra components to the pool without effectively taking a penalty in Monaco.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 19 June 2018 - 09:35.

[RPM40]

Picture is a bit distorted as Max added some extra components to the pool without effctively taking a penalty in Monaco.

 

Max also has completed a lot fewer laps this season due to his various incidents. His engines are still relatively fresh.

[steferrari]

[Disgrace]

Smart decision all things considered. Red Bull have had a car with the best chassis in F1 for 8 of the last 9 years but it has not worked out.

 

It's time for change and regardless of how bad it turns out, they won't be in a situation like Mclaren since they are a far better team. 

 

Even if Honda end up pulling out of the sport? Again I think this has to be considered in the event Honda do not improve.

[NixxxoN]

Honda is using F1 as testing ground, they are not in a die-hard win or nothing attitude, they hope to win "some day"

Edited by NixxxoN, 19 June 2018 - 09:38.

[KWSN - DSM]

Time had come for Red Bull and Renault to part ways, I have higher expectations than most who have posted so far it seems, I expect Red Bull to maintain their current spot in the pecking order, and I expect them to win the occasional race during the 2 seasons the contract will run.

 

[GTA]

Even if Honda end up pulling out of the sport? Again I think this has to be considered in the event Honda do not improve.

 

Unless Honda completely stuffs up you surely can make a worst case scenario of consistent top 10 finishes with Red Bull. Honda will be ok with that considering the history with Mclaren. Red Bull have gone all in with 2 teams so the situation will be better. A 2 year deal also gives them options in 2021. 

[rodnet1]

It is a bit of a gamble, but I presume the data from the Canadian Grand Prix showed Red Bull that Honda now has at least equal power to Renault and with Renault continuously postponing upgrades in the past I can well imagine Red Bulls choice. Testing for next season has just become a lot more interesting.

[Dan333SP]

 

Only marginally worse than the Renault for Red Bull, who themselves are on the verge of component penalties. 

 

The reliability of Mercedes drivetrains is really pretty stunning, isn't it?

[baddog]

Quite exciting really, RedBull are never dull and Honda do look they might make something at least not terrible. Will be interesting to see how it plays out!

[JeePee]

Max also has completed a lot fewer laps this season due to his various incidents. His engines are still relatively fresh.

Only Bahrain was race-ending and Baku happened in the final part? He made a lot of errors, but touching Stroll, hitting Vettel and spinning in Australia didn't do his engine mileage any good.

[TomNokoe]

McLaren shouldn't have ditched Honda

Red Bull shouldn't have ditched Renault

[goldenboy]

A show of confidence from Red Bull and Honda then. Exciting news!

Juicy!

[Kao18]

Max also has completed a lot fewer laps this season due to his various incidents. His engines are still relatively fresh.

 

Actually he hasn't. He has completed the exact same number of laps as Dan.

[Nova]

 

Only marginally worse than the Renault for Red Bull, who themselves are on the verge of component penalties. 

 

 

How are this statistic, if at all, also a result of crashes? As in changing an engine due to a heavy stunt, rather than bad reliability.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

LOL!

[LiftAndCoast]

"We have sometimes had our differences but Renault has always worked tirelessly and to the best of its ability to provide us with a competitive power unit."

 

Savage.

 

https://www.autospor...nda-engine-deal

[Fastcake]

The only thing I can say is this is only going to end up in failure or disaster.

[Talisman]

You have to give respect to Honda that they've landed this deal, but I don't think they'll succeed. This is their fourth year, we're a third of the way through the season, and they are incurring component use penalties again. They are not in a position to complete a season without accumulating penalties. They are not even close.

 

So I think Red Bull will go backwards next year. The real question mark is over the change in engine regulations. My view is that there is a serious possibility they'll end up back at square one, given how badly wrong Honda have performed under the current rules. And if they thought McLaren or Toro Rosso were demanding customers...

 

The reliability comparison is distorted by Hartley's mechanical failure in Spain, i.e. mechanically smashing the whole engine to pieces.  Also in Canada Gasly took a whole new PU although it now seems there was nothing wrong with his other new PU of the weekend.

 

Renault are hardly the paragon of reliability either and I suggest that with a contract with both already Red Bull are in the best position overall to judge directly which operation is better.  It is certainly true that Honda lag behind Merc/Ferrari in terms of power and reliability but neither option is available to Red Bull.  

 

McLaren are the real losers, they've clearly had greater difficulty installing the larger Renault than expected and they are in the unenviable position of being a customer midfield team directly financially subsidising the design and development of a different works PU for a top 3 team.  Its a shame given the sacrifice they made in the first three years which allowed Honda to get its house in order.

Edited by Talisman, 19 June 2018 - 10:36.

[danmills]

Red Bull probably have the right atmosphere and drive to push Honda's buttons. Totally different to the McLaren mould.

 

This should be a success.

[Marklar]

Toro Rosso isnt doing all that bad with Honda and Red Bull probably knows that better, so eh, can really go either way here, especially as Red Bull was not the primary team anymore for Renault, they definitely will be for Honda otoh.

[Myrvold]

So, a unreliable Honda engine, coupled With Adrian Neweys aggressive and at times unreliable designs. Doesn't sound like a recipe for WDC/WCC in 2019.

[danmills]

Anyone considered the long term plan of RB and possible intentions to build their own in-house engine with upcoming new rules, with the remains of Honda should they either bail and their leftover plans be salvaged.

 

One to consider.

 

There is, afterall, a certain Building 9 housing their Virtual Test Track.

[AlexPrime]

Tasty news

 

 

More like something will happen with him and McLaren

I don't think that he'll be in F1 next season.

[Disgrace]

Unless Honda completely stuffs up you surely can make a worst case scenario of consistent top 10 finishes with Red Bull. Honda will be ok with that considering the history with Mclaren. Red Bull have gone all in with 2 teams so the situation will be better. A 2 year deal also gives them options in 2021. 

 

Yep, the deal is sensible. This is also how McLaren and Honda should have done things from the beginning, with an additional team to double the mileage and data. Results should almost be certainly better than what they achieved with McLaren. But the objective is the championship.

 

Regarding options for 2021, Red Bull are best placed to partner a new manufacturer, but it is not realistic to expect that manufacturer to beat the opposition from the first season. Certain cards need to fall their way, and they'll have to be patient. Red Bull will have to break the habit of a lifetime and stop rubbishing their engine supplier, even while winning titles.

[sopa]

Interesting.

 

If nothing else, it could at least somewhat shake-up the pecking order a bit, which has gone quite stale. But unfortunately for Red Bull it's more likely that they would lose ground rather than gain ground and really compete with Mercedes and Ferrari. Then again there is such a large no-mans-land behind Red Bull that they could even afford to drop a little and still stay third. Or who knows, maybe Renault works improves a bit too, so they have a close battle for P3 in WCC next year.

 

Ok, so much about predicting. Honda has improved this year. By all accounts must be quite close to Renault now. You don't get P4 in Bahrain with a rubbish engine. Reliability over a season is still a questionmark, more with Honda than with Renault. But then again if you have a powerful PU, you can live with a few grid penalties and collect good results elsewhere.

 

I think Red Bull made the switch to Honda not because they are better than Renault, but because...

 

a) they have been criticizing Renault so much over the years that it was time to put their money where their mouth is, and go separate ways. Prove themselves elsewhere.

 

b) to become a "works" team again, have a closer co-operation with a manufacturer that they have been missing with Renault. Yeah, McLaren used the same argument back in 2014 too, although back then Honda was much less proven than now, while Merc had by far the best PU. So McLaren had much more to lose in comparison to Red Bull right now.

 

c) possibly to cut some costs too as maybe Honda would cover some costs. Maybe not to the extent of $100M per annum like with McLaren, but nonetheless.

[TweetyV6]

Great news.
RBR have STR as 'real life laboratory'. They have acces to all data and can compare the Honda performance to the Renault performance and feed their simulator with the collected data.
From what I've heard, there's not much difference anymore between the 2 powerplants.

Rumour goes that RBR have developed 2 chassis' for 2018; the current one and one in which the Honda engine fits.
Don't be surprised when RBR will be running as RBR Honda in the 2nd half of the season when it's no longer possible for any of their drivers to become WDC

Edited by TweetyV6, 19 June 2018 - 10:48.