Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 4 votes

Red Bull Honda officially announced for 2019


  • Please log in to reply
2030 replies to this topic

#101 MikeV1987

MikeV1987
  • Member

  • 5,331 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:13

Good choice, no point in continuing with Renault.



Advertisement

#102 TweetyV6

TweetyV6
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:13

It is against the rules to switch engine manufacturers mid season, out of interest?

 

That would be a glorious illustration of a loophole if ever there was one, to conduct an extensive test amassing every penalty under the sun for the last half of the year changing all items every session lol.

Nope. See F1 regulations, Chapter 8.3 https://www.fia.com/...?token=U4C9DSOh



#103 TweetyV6

TweetyV6
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:17

I don’t think the homologation procedure allows changing from PU supplier during the season.

See F1 sporting regulations 23.4. No need for re-homologation as the PU is already homologated for the 2017-202 period (by STR)



#104 TweetyV6

TweetyV6
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:22

If two engines are similar in mounting points, design etc. so they can fit the same chassis, crash structures etc. I don't see why not?

I might be wrong though, but afaik, the things that are homologated does not include the engine.

 

See F1 Sporting Regulations 23.4 b)
And the rumor is that Red Bull have developed (and homologated) 2 chassis'; 1 for the use of a Renault PU and one for the use of a Honda PU



#105 TweetyV6

TweetyV6
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:27

I will not be surprised, I'd be gobsmacked and flabbergasted. Not gona happen.

 

If there's one team who a) got the balls and b) has sufficient resources and funding, then It's RBR

Rumor is coming from somebody who used to work at a RBR supplier but still is in contact with RBR reps.



#106 Mzovk

Mzovk
  • Member

  • 93 posts
  • Joined: February 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:30

Good decision tbh. I would’ve done the same.
Renault pretty much stagnated (in terms of gap) compared to Mercedes and Ferrari.
And its not like improvements arent possible, look how shitty Ferrari’s engine was back in 2014 and now they are winning poles at Baku and Canada.
It is a gamble for sure, but IMO its better to gamble in hope of winning rather than staying 3rd fastest forever.

Edited by Mzovk, 19 June 2018 - 13:30.


#107 TweetyV6

TweetyV6
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:31

 

If two engines are similar in mounting points, design etc. so they can fit the same chassis, crash structures etc. I don't see why not?I might be wrong though, but afaik, the things that are homologated does not include the engine.

APPENDIX 4
2017-2020 POWER UNIT HOMOLOGATION
1) Any manufacturer intending to homologate a power unit for use by a team in a Championship during the 2017-2020 period must submit to the FIA a power unit homologation dossier on or before 28 February of the relevant year.
2) The homologation dossier must include:
a) Details of all the parts described as “INC” in the “App. 4 Sporting regs.” column of Appendix 2 of the F1 Technical Regulations.
b) All documents required in Article a) of Appendix 9 of these regulations.
3) A power unit will be homologated for the relevant team once a complete homologation dossier has been submitted by the relevant manufacturer and has been approved by the FIA, such approval to take place within 14 days from the submission of the homologation dossier.
4) The homologation will be valid for a maximum of one season only, starting on the date of approval by the FIA and ending on the start of the first Event of the following Championship.
5) Each manufacturer shall submit an homologation dossier for each team it intends to supply. There may only be one homologation dossier per team.

 

Note: This only concerns a particular make of PU for use in any of the contestants chassis'

The Honda PU is homologated by the FIA for the period 2017-2020 either when they were working with McLaren or, if the design has changed substantially, by STR.
So that's no issue.



#108 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 16,052 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:33

I reckon the major benefit will be having two teams running Honda engines now. Not just that, but two related teams. So there’s potential for good improvement.

There’s no reason to switch before the end of the season. That’s absurd.

#109 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 7,680 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:36

See F1 Sporting Regulations 23.4 b)
And the rumor is that Red Bull have developed (and homologated) 2 chassis'; 1 for the use of a Renault PU and one for the use of a Honda PU


MultiQuote is a nice thing btw!
And post confirmed mine, but did not answer if they are allowed to homologate 2 chassis. Afaik they can only homologate one, and they are stuck with that one for the whole season.

#110 BJHF1

BJHF1
  • Member

  • 1,550 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:53

This means Honda's performance will be unter scrutiny too (again). If Red Bull doesn't win, we know, who to blame. 

 

 ;)  :p

 

Yep :lol: Hopefully Honda show up with a solid package or else we'll likely be in for quite the soap opera between the two.  Red Bull don't seem to take many prisoners when their engine partner delivers duds and false promises, although I don't mind some whinging from RBR considering they quite consistently hold up to their end of the bargain and deliver a killer chassis.  At least i dont think they've ever scapegoated their engine partner like some others, ehem...


Edited by BJHF1, 19 June 2018 - 13:55.


#111 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 12,876 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 19 June 2018 - 13:56

I reckon the major benefit will be having two teams running Honda engines now. Not just that, but two related teams. So there’s potential for good improvement.

There’s no reason to switch before the end of the season. That’s absurd.

Yup, feels like de ju vu after James Allen suggested McLaren would swap to Renault mid season last year. 



#112 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 8,780 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:15

MultiQuote is a nice thing btw!
And post confirmed mine, but did not answer if they are allowed to homologate 2 chassis. Afaik they can only homologate one, and they are stuck with that one for the whole season.

 

No, only teams avoid it because it isn't cheap (new crashtest and such).



#113 Dalton007

Dalton007
  • Member

  • 4,776 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:31

McLaren did all the development work...  :rotfl: Red Bull will win WDCs.  :drunk:  



#114 TweetyV6

TweetyV6
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:41

I reckon the major benefit will be having two teams running Honda engines now. Not just that, but two related teams. So there’s potential for good improvement.

There’s no reason to switch before the end of the season. That’s absurd.

Why?
If you see that the season is 'lost' then why not run the Honda engine and calibrate your wind tunnel & simulator data.

Best prep for 2019.



#115 TweetyV6

TweetyV6
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:49

MultiQuote is a nice thing btw!
And post confirmed mine, but did not answer if they are allowed to homologate 2 chassis. Afaik they can only homologate one, and they are stuck with that one for the whole season.

 

The chassis doesn't need to be homologated. It 'only' needs to pass the mandatory crash tests and scrutiny of the FIA.
Only the PU (See chapter 23 and appendix 4 of the F1 Sporting regulations)



#116 TheRacingElf

TheRacingElf
  • Member

  • 2,267 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:50

Why?
If you see that the season is 'lost' then why not run the Honda engine and calibrate your wind tunnel & simulator data.

Best prep for 2019.

Because it's almost impossible to pull off and serves almost no purpose. Red Bull has all the numbers they need though Toro Rosso.



#117 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 15,913 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:53

McLaren did all the development work... :rotfl: Red Bull will win WDCs. :drunk:


It's like stalking the 2p machines at an arcade!

#118 Dr. Austin

Dr. Austin
  • Member

  • 3,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:54

Watch both Red Bulls blow up on the formation lap at the next race!



#119 alframsey

alframsey
  • Member

  • 2,127 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:54

Was expected tbf but we will see a much less competitive Red Bull imo. I hope Honda get it right though.



Advertisement

#120 B38

B38
  • Member

  • 282 posts
  • Joined: May 16

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:56

Assume Renault will now stop development on the 2018 engine and focus on the 2019 engine as it would hurt RBR to compete with Ferrari and Mercedes but doesn't hurt Renaults fight with MCLaren.



#121 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 5,126 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 19 June 2018 - 14:56

McLaren did all the development work...  :rotfl: Red Bull will win WDCs.  :drunk:  

You are not wrong there mate! ..I highlighted the exact same point when Macca ditched Honda on the Mclaren thread  and received a warning point for my troubles-no doubt after a complaint to the mods! :eek:



#122 Fatgadget

Fatgadget
  • Member

  • 5,126 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:00

Watch both Red Bulls blow up on the formation lap at the next race!

All those gremlins have more or less been ironed out...No thanks to the trials and tribulations of McLaren...And Red Bull under Christian Horner are not known for making daft decisions.



#123 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 11,979 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:06

A great financial and political decision in the long term for Red Bull, a real coup. Short term performance wise? Maybe cost them points in reliability in the first season but Honda should be in the 5th/6th year of their programme after that and if they are committed should be in a much better position.

 

Just imagine this years Honda engine in the Red Bull. It would be DESTROYING the McLaren. That's the gulf between RB and MCL these days as chassis builders.


Edited by Tenmantaylor, 19 June 2018 - 15:07.


#124 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 16,052 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:22

Why?
If you see that the season is 'lost' then why not run the Honda engine and calibrate your wind tunnel & simulator data.
Best prep for 2019.


You don’t think it’s absurd to develop a whole new car in the middle of a season? I know the engines are similar but you can’t just swap one for the other.

Not to mention the constructors’ championship situation. Red Bull are unlikely to end lower than third this year. Of course, if they swapped, they’d end up having to add their revenue from wherever their Renault powered score leaves them coupled with what would undoubtedly be less from the Honda powered score.

It could perhaps make sense if they were struggling to make 107% and their season was truly lost,but not in the strong position they’re currently in.

#125 danmills

danmills
  • Member

  • 723 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:33

I reckon the major benefit will be having two teams running Honda engines now. Not just that, but two related teams. So there’s potential for good improvement.

There’s no reason to switch before the end of the season. That’s absurd.

 

The parallels for experimenting and testing will be second to none. I expect rapid leaps and updates given how they can more thoroughly assess changes across two known baselines.



#126 danmills

danmills
  • Member

  • 723 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:35

 I know the engines are similar but you can’t just swap one for the other.

 

Not entirely true, look how fast Brawn adapted to the Merc. That was a real plug and play job. Sure, there were other factors, but it worked!



#127 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 1,639 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:36

Watch both Red Bulls blow up on the formation lap at the next race!

 

Well, maybe Renault will wait Austria for the fireworks, instead of France.  :stoned:



#128 LeClerc

LeClerc
  • Member

  • 9,450 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:41

You are not wrong there mate! ..I highlighted the exact same point when Macca ditched Honda on the Mclaren thread  and received a warning point for my troubles-no doubt after a complaint to the mods! :eek:

 

In fairness, the McLaren thread is particularly fertile ground if you are gathering complaints :rotfl:



#129 Dr. Austin

Dr. Austin
  • Member

  • 3,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:52

.And Red Bull under Christian Horner are not known for making daft decisions.

 

You mean like letting their drivers race each other?  :drunk:

 

No, I am absolutely sure Honda will be much closer next year. I am actually surprised they didn't get it right way before now. While Red Bull probably thinks this was a good choice for them, it's even better for Renault. After all the outright public criticizing, finger pointing and backstabbing those two have leveled at each other in the hybrid era, Renault can scratch around for a partner instead of perpetually pissed off customer.  Granted, Red Bull has toned it down a little, but still every race the drivers complain about a lack of top end speed drive ability, or something. They are never happy, and even when they win or do well, the credit now goes to Aston Martin. 

 

There was nothing in it for Renault to supply Red Bull, so this is a good day for them.



#130 Dr. Austin

Dr. Austin
  • Member

  • 3,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:54

Well, maybe Renault will wait Austria for the fireworks, instead of France.  :stoned:

 

Blow up at their home race, not yours.   :drunk:



#131 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 1,490 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 15:55

Not entirely true, look how fast Brawn adapted to the Merc. That was a real plug and play job. Sure, there were other factors, but it worked!

 

The much simpler V8 engines were no problem to switch, the massively complex current V6 turbo hybrid ones, ARE a problem



#132 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 7,115 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:06

Given how often RB were bitching about the Renault engines even when they were winning the titles, I sort of wonder how it's going to look like now.



#133 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 7,115 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:08

 

 

No, I am absolutely sure Honda will be much closer next year. I am actually surprised they didn't get it right way before now.

Said McLaren, again and again.



#134 Mosquito

Mosquito
  • Moderator

  • 12,342 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:12

I reckon the major benefit will be having two teams running Honda engines now. Not just that, but two related teams. So there’s potential for good improvement.

There’s no reason to switch before the end of the season. That’s absurd.

It has been done before, McLaren switched from Cosworth to TAG-Porsche in 1983.

#135 statman

statman
  • Member

  • 3,505 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:15



#136 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 1,490 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:18

Said McLaren, again and again.

 

Since the Senna years Honda have not won or challenged for the championship.

 

They only made decent engines in 1998-99 maybe and 2004



#137 RedBaron

RedBaron
  • Member

  • 7,862 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:23

I hope they don't live to regret ditching Tag Heuer power.

#138 statman

statman
  • Member

  • 3,505 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:26

lengthy analysis by Dieter Rencken:

 

https://www.racefans...claren-f1-2019/



#139 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 34,603 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:28

Since the Senna years Honda have not won or challenged for the championship.

They only made decent engines in 1998-99 maybe and 2004

So your just writing off the Williams years?

Advertisement

#140 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 1,490 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:29

So your just writing off the Williams years?

 

Williams Honda was prior to McLaren Honda :drunk:



#141 RA2

RA2
  • Member

  • 875 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:36

:up:  Honda

 

a76066064f95225684f89dccebe32c-553a53147



#142 Dr. Austin

Dr. Austin
  • Member

  • 3,104 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:36

Said McLaren, again and again.

 

Exactly.



#143 tomjol

tomjol
  • Member

  • 714 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:45

It has been done before, McLaren switched from Cosworth to TAG-Porsche in 1983.

 

And there's been absolutely no increase in car, PU, or packaging complexity in the last 35 years.


Edited by tomjol, 19 June 2018 - 16:45.


#144 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 15,913 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:46

Assume Renault will now stop development on the 2018 engine and focus on the 2019 engine as it would hurt RBR to compete with Ferrari and Mercedes but doesn't hurt Renaults fight with MCLaren.


Abiteboul already teasing the improvements of "Spec C" and indicated Red Bull will receive it.

#145 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 16,052 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:52

It has been done before, McLaren switched from Cosworth to TAG-Porsche in 1983.


Yes many teams switched to turbo charged engined mid season back in those days, when costs were lower. Lotus, Williams, and Tyrrell did it too.

But they were racing their old car while the new one was being developed. In McLaren’s, case a two year old car.

#146 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 11,375 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:58

Yeah, I don't think we can compare 1982/1983 to 2018. 

 

No mid-season engine changes these days, I'm afraid. Hasn't happened for a good while either.



#147 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 14,165 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 June 2018 - 16:59

Good luck to both. I'm not such a fan of Red Bull but I'd like to see Honda and them win races.



#148 shonguiz

shonguiz
  • Member

  • 3,679 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 19 June 2018 - 17:01

Finallyyyy  image1.gifparty.gifall_coholic.gif

 

Enjoy, may you succeed. What a relief.



#149 THEWALL

THEWALL
  • Member

  • 1,780 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 19 June 2018 - 17:10

Why not just keep testing with STR until/if Honda > Renault and then make the switch? RBR were apparently getting closer to Merc/Ferrari. A switch to Honda from next year seems premature?



#150 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 8,780 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 19 June 2018 - 17:14

And there's been absolutely no increase in car, PU, or packaging complexity in the last 35 years.

 

Teams still have 30 people and a few million budget. Oh, wait. ;) 

Abiteboul already teasing the improvements of "Spec C" and indicated Red Bull will receive it.

RB must receive it, Renault is prohibited (like other PU-builders} to have different specs of engines in a year. Otherwise every Renault team keeps B spec.

 

Yes many teams switched to turbo charged engined mid season back in those days, when costs were lower. Lotus, Williams, and Tyrrell did it too.

But they were racing their old car while the new one was being developed. In McLaren’s, case a two year old car.

 

RB has every spec of the engine via Toro Rosso. If any team can make it happen, it is RB.