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Red Bull Honda officially announced for 2019


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#1951 goldenboy

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:07

It seems that even hinting that Honda aren't now equal to Mercedes in power and reliablity is heresy. Burn the basher, burn him!

true, but I also have a feeling that people are reeeeeally wanting them to fail for some reason. As with most things the truth is somewhere in the middle I suppose.

Edited by goldenboy, 10 January 2019 - 05:08.


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#1952 RPM40

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 05:50

From that article:


Very happy to see the sense of realism about reliability. I just hope aims for 5 PU’s or so this season. Run them harder, get some good results and take 2 penalties on tracks you know you can overtake.


Interesting he confirms the Ferrari power was cut down with the oil burning rules changing

#1953 Ivanhoe

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 06:17

Interesting he confirms the Ferrari power was cut down with the oil burning rules changing


I think he referred to their hybrid trick which was dealt with by the FIA by placing a 2nd sensor?

#1954 Requiem84

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 06:53

Aus: no changes
Bah: TC+MGU-H (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H (Gasly)
Chi: no changes
Aze: no changes
Esp: full change (Hartley), no changes (Gasly)
Mon: no changes
Can: ICE (Hartley), full change (Gasly)
Fra: full change (Harley), no changes (Gasly)
Aut: ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Hartley), no changes (Gasly)
Gbr: ICE+MGU-K (Hartley), no changes (Gasly)
Ger: no changes (Hartley), full change (Gasly)
Hun: no changes
Bel: no changes
Ita: no changes
Sin: no chanes
Rus: ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K+CE (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Gasly)
Jap: no changes
USA: ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Gasly)
Mex: no changes (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H (Gasly)
Bra: no changes
Abu: no changes

So, between Gbr and Rus, Hartley used just a single PU (6 races).


Thanks!

Good to see Honda has at least shown flashes of reliability, contrary to what some unibformed people were saying.

#1955 baddog

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 07:07

It seems that even hinting that Honda aren't now equal to Mercedes  in power and reliablity is heresy.  Burn the basher, burn him! 

 

Its a bit sad when even with petrol on it the strawman still wont burn



#1956 Maustinsj

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:05

Strawman bingo!

I must admit, I’d given up hope of it ever coming back, but I look forward to receiving my prize once I can strike “butthurt” and “fanboys” off my list.

#1957 RPM40

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:17

I think he referred to their hybrid trick which was dealt with by the FIA by placing a 2nd sensor?

 

Ahh yep maybe that too. it does meet the general perception they lost a trick mid year though. Their performance tailed off.



#1958 statman

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:43

Thanks!

Good to see Honda has at least shown flashes of reliability, contrary to what some unibformed people were saying.

 

they also did 5 or 6 race distances during the test in abu dhabi



#1959 Requiem84

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:44

they also did 5 or 6 race distances during the test in abu dhabi


Can we be sure that they used only 1 PU?

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#1960 SenorSjon

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:48

Aus: no changes

Bah: TC+MGU-H (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H (Gasly)

Chi: no changes

Aze: no changes

Esp: full change (Hartley), no changes (Gasly)

Mon: no changes

Can: ICE (Hartley), full change (Gasly)

Fra: full change (Harley), no changes (Gasly)

Aut: ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Hartley), no changes (Gasly)

Gbr: ICE+MGU-K (Hartley), no changes (Gasly)

Ger: no changes (Hartley), full change (Gasly)

Hun: no changes

Bel: no changes

Ita: no changes

Sin: no chanes

Rus: ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K+CE (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Gasly)

Jap: no changes

USA: ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H+MGU-K (Gasly)

Mex: no changes (Hartley), ICE+TC+MGU-H (Gasly)

Bra: no changes

Abu: no changes

 

So, between Gbr and Rus, Hartley used just a single PU (6 races).

 

Hartley 'disassembled' a couple of engines as well early in the year with hard crashes.

 

Haven't heard much about the others but Honda have had these kind of issues several times now but they've also solved them every time too so hearing about more issues shouldn't be that worrying I would say.

 

It is a bit hard to read all those media outlets. Most sites are rehashing the same interviews in different wording to get to winter testing with news on their pages.



#1961 Danyy

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:52

true, but I also have a feeling that people are reeeeeally wanting them to fail for some reason. As with most things the truth is somewhere in the middle I suppose.


Not me, I’m waiting for the vtec to kick in yo. Then we might have a real championship fight on our hands.

#1962 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 16:39

Honda:
http://www.as-web.jp/f1/442810?all

It is not a fact that we canceled our partner contract with AVL because we have not signed a partner agreement with AVL in the first place


Edited by JimmyTheFox, 10 January 2019 - 16:41.


#1963 BRG

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 17:20

true, but I also have a feeling that people are reeeeeally wanting them to fail for some reason. As with most things the truth is somewhere in the middle I suppose.

Personally, I would be pleased to see Honda finally come good.  But if Red Bull fail, I won't shed even one tear.



#1964 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 17:23

Translated article:

"Honda recently dissolved partner contract with AVL in Austria boasting the world's most advanced simulation technology" (Germany outbuilding), which jumped in from early in the beginning of the year, is a big shock to Japanese motor sports fans . However, the Honda side denied this report 100%.

"It is not a fact that we canceled our partner contract with AVL because we have not signed a partner agreement with AVL in the first place" (a certain Honda F1 official)

So, why did such news flow? A Honda official thinks as follows.

"It is true that Honda was talking to work together with AVL, but there is a gap between what Honda is seeking and what they can do and we have not concluded. You must have misunderstood it. "

By the way, AVL is the world's largest company in this industry, which is developing not only F1 but also power train of commercial cars and simulation testing, Honda also has a connection with AVL from the past, The relationship is ongoing.

I have found out the outbuild news is not true. However, it is true that Honda suffered from oscillation (resonance) in 2017 and 2018. Were you able to solve the problem for 2019?

"I do not know it until I actually mounted it on the car and run the circuit, but at least there is no fact that the problem is becoming serious as we have not been able to sign a contract with AVL." (A certain Honda official)

According to the stakeholder, Honda's 2019 power unit is on schedule and is now in a state of waiting for an answer from Red Bull. Red Bull and Toro Rosso have not yet revealed the release date of the new car.

#1965 pdac

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 18:36

Can we be sure that they used only 1 PU?

 

The FIA website seems to be unavailable right now, but any PU changes will be in the reports - whether or not they were new units or used units - so it is possible to find out whether it was 1 PU or more. That said, I don't remember seeing anything about them using used units, except for late in the season.



#1966 Clatter

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 18:55

The FIA website seems to be unavailable right now, but any PU changes will be in the reports - whether or not they were new units or used units - so it is possible to find out whether it was 1 PU or more. That said, I don't remember seeing anything about them using used units, except for late in the season.

Do they keep count at the tests?

#1967 Requiem84

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 19:09

The FIA website seems to be unavailable right now, but any PU changes will be in the reports - whether or not they were new units or used units - so it is possible to find out whether it was 1 PU or more. That said, I don't remember seeing anything about them using used units, except for late in the season.


I referred to the test sessions..

#1968 pdac

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 23:12

I referred to the test sessions..

 

Not sure how the tests work. What are you thinking about, though. That they may have used the same PU more?



#1969 Requiem84

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 06:44

Not sure how the tests work. What are you thinking about, though. That they may have used the same PU more?

 

Someone above was claiming that the TR did 6 race distances with 1 PU in the Abu Dhabi post-race test. If that is true, that would be a very encouraging sign for reliability. A spec 3 engine already proving to do 6 race distances is impressive.

 

My point is that in a test it's not really clear whether a team uses 1 PU, whether PU elements are changed or not etc. It's all pretty much behind closed doors with no official reporting to the FIA... So I try to remain a bit sceptical in this.



#1970 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:21

The car configuration in the test had to be raced beforehand as it was a tire test, so they couldn't introduce new PU-things in that test. 



#1971 Danyy

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:29

”Despite recent reports suggesting Honda had discovered a new vibration problem when testing its 2019 engine, it is understood that the manufacturer has not experienced a major setback although is hoping to make more progress with the development before testing begins”

https://www.motorspo...engine/4321700/

So bilde was talking rubbish what a surprise!

#1972 Maxioos

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:41

https://www.motorspo...engine/4321700/

So bilde was talking rubbish what a surprise!

 

As long it brings more profit than cost, they are fine with it. Now they can make a new corrected posting, new click's, double income on one lie.



#1973 Danyy

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:01

As long it brings more profit than cost, they are fine with it. Now they can make a new corrected posting, new click's, double income on one lie.


For some reason they have deleted it hmmm LOL

#1974 Clatter

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:38

The car configuration in the test had to be raced beforehand as it was a tire test, so they couldn't introduce new PU-things in that test.

That doesn't mean parts could not be replaced though.

#1975 statman

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 13:44

^ regarding the test:

 

 

 

^^ nope, cars are the same, 2018 models. Only tyre test.

 

 

Total laps for the 2019 Pirelli test (2 days):
 
Toro Rosso: 305 laps
McLaren: 280
Mercedes: 263
Red Bull: 262
Renault: 257
Sauber: 230
Ferrari: 204
Racing Point: 189
Haas: 173
Williams: 168

 

 

Toro Rosso didn't experience any downtime, whereas other teams had some issues and lost track time. So it's safe to say all went smoothly.



#1976 pdac

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 14:25

Distance in testing indicates a lot, but I don't think it's the same as covering that distance in a racing environment.


Edited by pdac, 11 January 2019 - 14:26.


#1977 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 12:56

I admire the blind faith in this thread, I really do. Even if it is a foolish thing to do when you look at their actions since returning to F1 as an engine supplier.

 

I've been there, I too put faith in Honda to produce a reliable engine. Foolish thing to do in hindsight. 



#1978 Requiem84

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 12:58

I admire the blind faith in this thread, I really do. Even if it is a foolish thing to do when you look at their actions since returning to F1 as an engine supplier.

I've been there, I too put faith in Honda to produce a reliable engine. Foolish thing to do in hindsight.


There is no blind faith. I didn’t see it.

Could you quote some examples?

#1979 Cliff

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 17:56

Just hopeful after 2018.

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#1980 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 19:52

Honda engines are unreliable - we know that from the McLaren years

 

Much of this is due to installation problems and unreasonable packagaing demands of McLaren.  McLaren couldn't even get the Renault to run correctly in 2018 winter testing, whereas the Toro Rosso was flawless with the newly installed Honda in 2018 winter testing.

 

Honda are very open about technical details compared to the other manufacturers, please follow the link and read for yourself about the technical details of the ongoing development of the Honda F1 power unit:  https://www.reddit.c...us_1517_from_a/

 

 

McLaren developed MP4-30 with size zero concept in mind.  What was lost in power was supposed to be gained by aerodynamic performance.

 

 

We didn't fully understand the difficulty of developing a PU.  This lack of understanding played a role in our accedding to the chassis' demands.  Once out on track we realised there were a lot of issues.

 

 

The turbocharger's position inside the V-bank limited its size.  It's difficult to increase efficiency without making it larger.  With the turbochager in the V-bank, the induction system was orientated quite forcefully.  I was shocked by the complexity of the components of the (allowed) variable intake trumpet length system being placed in such a small space when I first saw it.

 

 

In the 2015 RA615H, packaging needs forced the intake plenum to be flat.  The focus for the 2016 RA616H was an improvement of the cramped induction system.  After negotiations with McLaren, the allocated space for the engine increased somewhat, allowing the intake plenum to be raised 30mm.  The engine could not be revamped fully because of the token system.

 

This thread is about the two mighty, sporting and much admired Red Bull teams with Honda. As you know the RA17H, with lifting of token system, was a whole new concept of power unit and therefore had initial troubles (particularly regarding oil starvation from the constrained shape of the engine oil tank that was possible, for the dry sump system). 

 

The RA18H has been a development of the RA17H and has been relatively reliable.  Indeed the extra space allowed by Toro Rosso for the RA18H's intake and exhaust manifolds (compared to the RA17H) already produced an immediate gain in horsepower!  Since the 2018 Toro Rosso gearbox was similar to the 2017 one, Toro Rosso also provided a gearbox for Honda to test in conjunction with the power unit, which may have helped with the relatively smooth transition.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 January 2019 - 20:45.


#1981 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 20:14

Just hopeful after 2018.

 

:up:

 

Red Bull will almost certainly by 3rd in WCC in 2019.  How far they are from the top two teams in race pace, and how many breakdowns (if any) they do have and if that means they lose good results remains to be seen.  :)

 

One expects Red Bull will plan at least two tactical power unit changes, for a total of five units per driver.  Maybe more. 

 

Are these tactical changes likely to cause Red Bull to lose 3rd in WCC?  Most likely not, so there is not reason not to have the extra fresh units.  "Money is no object", within reason, to Red Bull and Honda... the costs of the extra units is trivial and top five or better race position results may still be possible even when starting from the back of the grid.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 January 2019 - 20:16.


#1982 Flyhigh

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 21:34

As discussed previously not everything seems as rosy as first thought with the 2019 Honda PU. Certainly going to be interesting to see which PU out of Renault and Honda is the best in 2019.

 

"Honda 2019 engine showing problems: "Vibrations at high velocity""

 

https://www.gpblog.c...-velocity-.html

 

"According to Autobild, the issue was confirmed by Dr Helmut Marko and could provide a worrying foreshadowing of things to come. Honda's previous F1 relationship with McLaren was also beset by communication issues that saw the eight-time team champions fall sharply down the grid."

 

https://www.gpfans.c...s-two-setbacks/

I have learned my lesson with Honda long ago... now the difference with RBR from Mclaren is that the shitstorm will be much bigger and faster..... Unfortunately because I do want to see RBR succeed, but with Honda I am not believing it. 

5bd3e08e9bd6bdbd18ec0c6455f1c55fc163091d


Edited by Flyhigh, 12 January 2019 - 21:39.


#1983 Paco

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 00:02

Yet RBR can’t even afford to build their own PU though. I doubt they were really interested in a spending war, especially against a giant like Mercedes who had started throwing resources at the hybrid PU so early on.

The modern era has generally been absurdly expensive to be able to compete at the front. It’s just that these Hybrid PU’s have taken things to another level.

 

No one every said they can't afford it.. its simply a matter of where F1 is and future plans.  If 2021 is a major reset and probably a significant PU change even if it takes some of the current elements and in 2019 still no working agreement on what the PU will entail.  Makes it impossible to actualize a plan for a new entrant. 

 

RB would be ridiculous to consider such an undertaking right now.  THERE IS ZERO reasons for ANYONNE NEW to even try and draw a business case for coming into to F1 with an engine design.   That ship has long long sailed if there was even a business case for it.  Few teams would like to buy it from them as well as a supplier team knowing they would probably never compete with RB so rules Williams out as well as probably McLaren.  

 

Now.. that said, would they consider it for 2021:

 

1.  Buy out Honda if Honda is still struggling at that point and not winning with F1 having a clear decision and path based on current tech.. I can TOTALLY see that happening and perhaps, that is why RB dropped Renault now and agreed to the Honda unit.

 

2.  If possible resolution to firm PU design and rule set done by Summer of 2019 for 2021 thereby, giving RB a chance to do it on their own with TR and another team as a customers ... 

 

Either way I doubt either 1 or 2 will work itself out and they'll be Honda Cars for the next 5 years.



#1984 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 00:17

Personally, I would be pleased to see Honda finally come good.  But if Red Bull fail, I won't shed even one tear.

Singing from the same hymn sheet on that one mate!.

 

Abominable the way  Red Bull  attempted to push their weight around on the back of those 4 consecutive WDCs. That gripe aside, I reckon the Red Bull Honda combo potent. And with a capital P.


Edited by Fatgadget, 13 January 2019 - 00:21.


#1985 statman

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:20

Honda will continue with the 2017 concept

 

plus some info on the new RB15: https://www.formulap...b15-416049.html

 

through translation:

 

As already emerged for Mercedes and more generally according to the trends expected for 2019 , the wider wing profiles at the front should lead the cars to assume a lower inclination of the leading edge of the diffuser . A factor that seems to have also conformed the Red Bull according to the latest rumors reported in the pages of the newspaper La Gazzetta dello Sport by the technical expert Paolo Filisetti. In fact, thanks to the extreme inclination of the nose down and a shorter pitch of direct competition, about 20 cm compared to the Mercedes of 2018, the RB14 was able to provide top-quality canvas performance.

 

However, the new regulations dictated by the wings called to deviate more turbulences more centrally seems to have imposed on the teams a review of the layout of the vehicle. In Milton Keynes, however, they would not have abandoned the pivotal concept that has raged in the last decade, but would have resorted to a less extreme solution . A sort of 'compromise' that would align with what Ferrari did last season. Reduced inclination, halfway between that of the RB14 and the more 'neutral' Mercedes which has an angle of attack of the minimum diffuser (1.2 degrees). This decision would have also influenced the pace of the car, with an increase of about 8 centimeters. In spite of this, the compactness of the Honda engine should allow the RB15 to maintain a rather reduced section of the sides when compared to the Toro Rosso STR13 last season. The first machine in the Red Bull group to be equipped with the Japanese power unit.

 

Equally interesting is the shape of the nose , defined as "evolution of the current one, especially as regards the power supply of the S-duct socket. The deflectors in front of the sides have been worked out, combined with the bottom equipped with longitudinal 'rails'. Perhaps, precisely because they are among the most sought after solutions , they will not be visible at the car presentation ".Obviously, the biggest unknown factor is that linked to the performance of the aforementioned Honda power unit, which from the picked up rumors should maintain the architecture implemented in the second part of last season. Updates would have focused on the combustion chambers, the turbocharger and the ERS system. All this to increase performance, but also reliability.



#1986 StanBarrett2

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 10:28

Singing from the same hymn sheet on that one mate!.

 

Abominable the way  Red Bull  attempted to push their weight around on the back of those 4 consecutive WDCs. That gripe aside, I reckon the Red Bull Honda combo potent. And with a capital P.

Oh yes of course, only Red Bull has pushed their weight around !!!  Ferrari only threatens to leave now and then everytime they don't get what they want ??

 

Wouldn't any team worth their salt try to get what they want ?

 

Don't they all try to get ......... what was a slogan for a certain team  "The unfair advantage" ?

 

Now if Williams or HAAS push their weight around or threaten..........yeah we would all sit up.

 

Come on !!  if you can get it...you take it.

 

It is all about winning........how ?  who the f*** cares. 



#1987 B Squared

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:09

...what was a slogan for a certain team  "The unfair advantage" ?

That certain team is Team Penske, dating back to the Donohue days.

#1988 StanBarrett2

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 15:46

That certain team is Team Penske, dating back to the Donohue days.

Of course...........I just used the slogan as an indication that there are teams.........with a very good reputation......and being good/very good

can ve viewed as.......whatever a poster thinks.

 

The unfair reputation Penske had...was because they were very good.........still are.

 

So other teams are nowadays branded as.....underhanded / dirty / abominable ? because they get what they can take.

 

You've got to take what you can get to win.....................

 

If you don't....

 

fill in the blanks



#1989 Ragnar668

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 16:21

 

Now if Williams or HAAS push their weight around or threaten..........yeah we would all sit up.

 

 

 

 You are psychic?

https://www.motorspo...teiner/4323628/



#1990 BRG

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 16:52

Yes, but this story is just Steiner moaning that the big boys won't let him have a kick of the ball and if they don't, he will go off and sulk.  Hardly the HAAS team throwing its corporate weight around.



#1991 StanBarrett2

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 20:27

No....but we have a saying in Holland

 

Praatjes vullen geen gaatjes.

 

 

More or less,,,,blabber all you want.....won't solve your problem.

 

 

If you want to win..do something about it



#1992 mclarensmps

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 20:41

 

Ah a factual one sided story  :up:



#1993 Reddington

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 00:37

No....but we have a saying in Holland

Praatjes vullen geen gaatjes.


More or less,,,,blabber all you want.....won't solve your problem.


If you want to win..do something about it

It translates as: talk is cheap.

#1994 TakataDomeNSX

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 09:20

Ah a factual one sided story  :up:

 

It still has more value than just forum insults from people unconnected to the project, doesnt it? :)

 

Unless Mclaren and Honda are willing to come together and issue a long winded explanation, which won't happen, what else can we get? At least they are candid about what development avenues they tried on their side and what problems they faced because of them. And they will say things like they are still not good enough.

 

Will you get such candidness or honesty out of Mclaren?

 

By the way, what does it say about Mclaren fans for you to post such a response? Biased? Open-minded? Still bitter? Unwilling to know more? Want to say whatever Honda and its fans say, they are just excuses?

 

Beats me, what I'm sure of, is that it is, as most forum posts are, not quite valuable in terms of learning something.


Edited by TakataDomeNSX, 15 January 2019 - 09:46.


#1995 Requiem84

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 10:06

Mclaren's 2018 performance basically shows how many things have been wrong in their organisation for a long time. Honda is to blame for many issues, but Mclaren isn't blameless at all.

 

If Honda would have come back in 2015 with TR, I'd wager they would have been up to performance speed faster than now. The way of working from Mclaren didn't promote a synergetic cooperation in which both parties thrive. The improvements they were able to make last season stems from a large part from TR's willingness to take penalties, to test out varies things and to accommodate Honda where necessary.

 

Good news is that Franz Tost confirmed yesterday that TR is willing to perform that role again in 2019 for the benefit of RB. With the complete rear end identical, RB basically has a test mule with the TR in 2019. That is a MASSIVE benefit.



#1996 kumo7

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:57

It still has more value than just forum insults from people unconnected to the project, doesnt it? :)

 

Unless Mclaren and Honda are willing to come together and issue a long winded explanation, which won't happen, what else can we get? At least they are candid about what development avenues they tried on their side and what problems they faced because of them. And they will say things like they are still not good enough.

 

Will you get such candidness or honesty out of Mclaren?

 

By the way, what does it say about Mclaren fans for you to post such a response? Biased? Open-minded? Still bitter? Unwilling to know more? Want to say whatever Honda and its fans say, they are just excuses?

 

Beats me, what I'm sure of, is that it is, as most forum posts are, not quite valuable in terms of learning something.

 

Speak about learning,... Helmut has said something about Newey re-ignited, because he saw good chance with Honda collabortion.

Kinda curious wat he is up to, and got this feeling that this will be true test of Honda...

 

I say, go conservative for the sake of a success...



#1997 Otaku

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 13:01

 

I say, go conservative for the sake of a success...

 

The word "conservative" does not exist in Newey's dictionary though...



#1998 kumo7

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 13:15

Exactly,.. because of it,...

I just imagined that it will be better of for Honda to go conservative,...



#1999 Danyy

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 13:32

They don’t have to worry about going conservative, they have Toro Rosso to test out all the ideas before Red Bull adopts the best ones. And to that article speculating about the RB15 - watch them turn up with the same rake as last year.

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#2000 Fatgadget

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 13:57

true, but I also have a feeling that people are reeeeeally wanting them to fail for some reason. As with most things the truth is somewhere in the middle I suppose.

McLaren fanboys perhaps. I for one think McLaren dropped a major boll**ock  severing the Honda deal.And no surprise Red Bull jumped at it...And Red Bull aren't exactly  notable for their stupidity..