429 replies to this topic

[sopa]

With Raikkonen's career likely coming to an end soon, perhaps it's time to analyze a bit of 'recent history', in this case the years of 2002-2006.

 

"How good was Kimi in McLaren?" is a question that occasionally pops up in various threads, and it looks like there is no consensus about the matter. What do you now retrospectively think, on the back of the rest of his career?

 

Some would say he was a top driver, maybe even the fastest. Others would say he was helped by circumstances and underperforming team-mates, and he has been exposed ever since.

 

How good was Kimi in McLaren? Was he then better than he has been in other teams? How much better? Why the difference in performance then? What happened afterwards?

 

Is Raikkonen a unique case in history? Any other examples of drivers, who were truly great for a few seasons, then dropped off significantly?

[AlexPrime]

He was very good, I think. 2003, great driver, amazing battle with Michael, who had a faster car in my opinion. Kimi kept him honest till the end. 2005, another great year, Kimi looked ominous and basically ended Montoya's career as a Top F1 driver. 2006 however for the first time he looked ordinary. What happened, I feel we'll never know, but there were some nasty rumours that he enjoyes to party hard with drinks and these thing might slow you just a little bit in the long term - so you're not special anymore, just good. I feel that this is the likely explanation.

[Starish]

Consistent and F**king Fast.... I would say top 5 All time.

[Niceman]

He was the fastest guy in F1. The combination of him, the car and tyres gelled beautifully. His corner entry speed was amazing.

No doubt the car had a good turn in but Kimi could ring its neck. I was a MS fan at the time.

[grunge]

Oh dear, a can of worms. Ive followed his career closely since his sauber days and have come to the following conclusions

 

He has a narrow setup window. That should be obvious to anyone whos seen him go from blindingly fast on occasion to mediocre the very next.

 

 In a front responsive Mclaren with Michelins, he was the fastest guy out there..2003 to 2006. In an understeery Ferrari with Bridgestones, he was average at best with flashes of his best here and there on tracks where the tires didnt hamper him so much. 

   

Lotus years, he was near his best again on those Bubble gum Pirellis which didnt have issues heating up..

 

  Ferrari 2014 exposed him badly as a driver who was totally at sea in a car that had the worst possible tendencies considering his driving style.

 

 2015, he started to fall off his cliff...there was obvious errors creeping into qualifying..2016, he was more comfortable with the car and with Vettel having am error prone season, he matched him.. 2017 was pretty rubbish

 

  This year hes shown pace from the word go. Matching Vettel on most weekends and even edging him occasionally.. 2 Dnfs and repeated Q3 muckups have however meant that he is no longer in contention of the title. 

[Spillage]

The temptation is to look at his Ferrari career and say he was never that good and that he was flattered by good cars and poor teammates, but I think that's unfair. His demolition of Juan Pablo Montoya indicates that he was operating at a seriously high level.

I think he made a few too many mistakes and had a few too many off days next to the super-consistent Schumacher and Alonso - and I don't think Kimi's peak performance was as high as theirs either - but he was definitely better than the rest of the grid and definitely better than he is now.

[Jovanotti]

Anyone who watched back then knew he was the fastest and most consistent along with Schuey and Alonso.

[Collombin]

Any other examples of drivers, who were truly great for a few seasons, then dropped off significantly?

Nelson Piquet was great until he started getting paid properly.

I thought Kimi in the McLaren was the fastest thing out there, and although he is far from that now it shouldn't taint our perception of what he was then. Just like Piquet at Brabham.

Edited by E.B., 24 June 2018 - 18:09.

[OvDrone]

Extremely good.

 

The s**t Kimi is getting is starting to get really annoying.

Edited by OvDrone, 24 June 2018 - 18:15.

[RedBaron]

He was very good.

 

The end.

[Balnazzard]

Well anyone who watched Kimi's career from the start should know that he was incredibly fast back then, rated as one of the best drivers next to Schumacher and Alonso back then and for good reason.

Those 3 as well as Montoya during his Williams years were the best of the best during that time period, but ofc then in Mclaren Kimi utterly demolished Montoya who didnt seem to fit that well into Mclaren.

I really dont see how anyone can question Kimi's talent back during those years...ofc he got the car that suited him very well as well as those Michelin tyres, but thats just one part of the story, when you look at his performance compared to his Mclaren team-mates, DC and Montoya. And even if you think that he wasnt as good with Ferrari, well he still got the job done and is still their latest WDC to date..

Anyhow Kimi's career overall can quite clearly split into two parts, where I could have easily ranked him on top 4-5 drivers during his 2001-2009 years (aside from the few mistakes in 2008, crash in Spa and Singapore and terrible first half of 2009), + his Lotus years that were good...

And then this 2nd "half" from 2014 onward, his return to Ferrari where he has shown flashes of his good old self, especially this season, but again making far too many mistakes and also way too often just seemingly fading away during races and just overall having either very bad or average performance when compared to Alonso in 2014 or to Vettel afterwards.

But ye, if more "luck" was on his side, during his prime years at Mclaren, Kimi could easily be 2 or 3 times world champion, back then it really wasnt his performance that was the issue that hindered those championships coming his way, but those numerous issues with realibility that Mclaren-Mercedes had. Shame that he never go the kind of car that would have been both fast and reliable enough during his absolute "prime", during those Mclaren years. And anyone who would claim that "Kimi was never that good in the first place" clearly dont know what they are talking about and didnt watch F1 during those years.

Edited by Balnazzard, 24 June 2018 - 18:24.

[Peat]

He was hungry.

 

Saw it again in his comeback with Lotus. He wasn't earning much (and still hasn't been paid...) so was putting himself in the shop window. 

 

Give him job security with nothing to prove and he is lazy imho. He's probably only been in it the last 3 years at the behest of his management/accountant.

[Trust]

Oh dear, a can of worms. Ive followed his career closely since his sauber days and have come to the following conclusions

 

He has a narrow setup window. That should be obvious to anyone whos seen him go from blindingly fast on occasion to mediocre the very next.

 

 In a front responsive Mclaren with Michelins, he was the fastest guy out there..2003 to 2006. In an understeery Ferrari with Bridgestones, he was average at best with flashes of his best here and there on tracks where the tires didnt hamper him so much. 

   

Lotus years, he was near his best again on those Bubble gum Pirellis which didnt have issues heating up..

 

  Ferrari 2014 exposed him badly as a driver who was totally at sea in a car that had the worst possible tendencies considering his driving style.

 

 2015, he started to fall off his cliff...there was obvious errors creeping into qualifying..2016, he was more comfortable with the car and with Vettel having am error prone season, he matched him.. 2017 was pretty rubbish

 

  This year hes shown pace from the word go. Matching Vettel on most weekends and even edging him occasionally.. 2 Dnfs and repeated Q3 muckups have however meant that he is no longer in contention of the title. 

Again this myth.  McLaren from 2005 was an understeery car guys. It's that with Kimi's setup he could turn the car being oversteery and to his liking. Montoya's comments from the whole year about his struggles with understeer in that car shows everything.

 

It's all about tyres and nothing else.

[Vesuvius]

He was very very good, source team McLaren (Dennis, Withmarsh, Haug, Newey, Coulthard, Montoya, Button, Wurz, De La Rosa etc.) Because of Mercedes engines he lost title battles 2003&2005.

His best years have been 2003,2005,2006,2007,2009 and 2013

Edited by Vesuvius, 24 June 2018 - 18:29.

[grunge]

Again this myth.  McLaren from 2005 was an understeery car guys. It's that with Kimi's setup he could turn the car being oversteery and to his liking. Montoya's comments from the whole year about his struggles with understeer in that car shows everything.

 

It's all about tyres and nothing else.

Tire grip allows him to cope with the understeer..It doesnt mean he wont be quicker in a car that isnt understeery to begin with. We have quotes from Ferrari engineers in 2007 about how surprised they were at his preferred levels of oversteer and his ability to live with an unstable rear.

[Piif]

He was exceptional and that should not be forgotten even though he's only been mediocre at Ferrari in the 10's.

[Seanspeed]

He was flattered.  And it should be quite obvious looking back.  He didn't turn into some completely different driver over the course of a winter.  

 

He was never 'the fastest guy in F1'. 

[Vesuvius]

He was flattered. And it should be quite obvious looking back. He didn't turn into some completely different driver over the course of a winter.

He was never 'the fastest guy in F1'.

He was at that time. And yes he was flattered as has been Hamilton at Mercedes. And F1 is different every year, the level of performances does change as it does in every sport.

[MLC]

He was very good, but the McLaren did flatter him. This was confirmed when he left McLaren and was paired with Massa.

[Vesuvius]

He was very good, but the McLaren did flatter him. This was confirmed when he left McLaren and was paired with Massa.

Yes. But different car, team, tyres and rules. Same could have happened, had Massa changed to McLaren. Also Massa wasn't bad at all as Bottas proved against Hamilton if we compare drivers like that.

[proviz]

Immediately when Kimi had clinched the title in 2007 he said he'd now achieved his goal and anything coming after this would just be a bonus. That was the worst possible news!

He lost the fire. He would repeatedly say he still had the motivation, actually meaning that he still liked to drive an F1 car - not that he was motivated to chase victories, making whatever sacrifices that required. I was never truly impressed with his "comeback" either. Some people in the media foolishly said he was driving better than ever. Absolute rubbish, that. Grosjean seemed to have more ultimate pace, only taking himself out too often with mistakes.

[Disgrace]

Raikkonen's permanent downturn in form coincided with the ban of traction control between '07 and '08. Discuss.

[SonGoku]

He was extremely good, still remember the days you just had one lap to qualify, he was an absolute beast. Then he left McLaren and it was never the same.

[Seanspeed]

He was at that time. And yes he was flattered as has been Hamilton at Mercedes. And F1 is different every year, the level of performances does change as it does in every sport.

He only 'seemed' to be.  Like I said, he was flattered.  

 

Remember how Vettel was said to be flattered by the Red Bull and he'd be exposed once he left?  See the difference in situation in what a real top driver looks like?  

 

It's silly to say that nothing that happened after his leaving Mclaren is relevant to bring up in terms of his form when he was there.  And it's not like he just had one or two post-Mclaren years that could be outlier seasons.  We've got more than a decade's worth of evidence since then to suggest what kind of driver he is. 

[Eff1]

Strange career.

2002-2006 seen as one the the top guys in line to take over from the Schumacher era (along with Alonso/Montoya).

2007 WDC

2008-mid 2009 I would say on balance beaten by Massa.

mid 2009 & 2012-mid 2013 solid recovery & comeback with Lotus.

mid 2013 started getting consistently beaten by Grosjean.

2014-present paired with multi world champs Alonso & Vettel, and has been soundly beaten in all measures (points, races, qualifying, podiums, wins etc.).

 

I can't quite place him. I would not place him in the elite (Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton).......maybe around Button, Rosberg level? 

[Seanspeed]

Raikkonen's permanent downturn in form coincided with the ban of traction control between '07 and '08. Discuss.

It's funny cuz people predicted Kimi would destroy Massa with the ban of traction control in 08.  I know I certainly expected him to step up and finally start dominating Massa like he was expected to but couldn't in 07.  08 was the year that I seriously started questioning Kimi as a top driver.  Most other people just elevated Massa to 'top driver' status to compensate, but again, hindsight shows that was almost assuredly a mistake. 

 

I really dont think it's traction control, though.  He's not a guy that relies on aggressive throttle use.  I think it's easy to forget with his title how close he and Massa actually were in 2007 in terms of competitiveness.  

[sopa]

Raikkonen's permanent downturn in form coincided with the ban of traction control between '07 and '08. Discuss.

 

Interesting claim that one. I remember in Australia 2008, first race without TC, both Ferrari drivers Massa and Raikkonen went spinning into the gravel. Of course the first thought back then was - no TC, exposed?

[Anuity]

Kimi was blindingly fast in his Mclaren years. It was a treat to watch. I was a fan of Michael, but still think Kimi deserved at least one of title of 2003 or 2005.
He also had some flashy races in his debut year at Sauber, really reminds me of Leclerc.
His 2007 was pretty solid as well.
2008 he had the speed actually, but bad luck and mistakes cost him.
Great driver, one of the fastest in his prime, but not as complete package as Michael, Alonso, Hamilton.

[grunge]

@ Sopa, Looks like Hamilton caught your thread title 

 

 In the Press conference after todays race

 

 Q: (Aurelien Attard – Le Mag Sport Auto) Lewis, you just won your 23rd grand prix in a different country and you’ve now beaten Michael Schumacher’s record?

 

LH: I didn’t know that. It’s news to me. Every time I’m told of these records I’m blown away by Michael, even more and more. He had obviously a long career and incredible statistics, and did a… it just brings me back to watching him as a kid. I was actually just sitting here thinking, and I don’t know if Kimi knows, I remember growing up wanting to be in Formula 1 and obviously I was at McLaren since I was 13 and I used to play F1 on the Playstation all the time and I was always Kimi, which is kind of crazy. I wasn’t Montoya, I was always Kimi in his car and I always wanted to race against him. It’s just crazy how life works and how you get the opportunity to work with some of these legends. I don’t know if they realise the respect that the younger generation will have for them. Maybe you do, maybe you don’t but… yeah.

[Vesuvius]

He only 'seemed' to be. Like I said, he was flattered.

Remember how Vettel was said to be flattered by the Red Bull and he'd be exposed once he left? See the difference in situation in what a real top driver looks like?

It's silly to say that nothing that happened after his leaving Mclaren is relevant to bring up in terms of his form when he was there. And it's not like he just had one or two post-Mclaren years that could be outlier seasons. We've got more than a decade's worth of evidence since then to suggest what kind of driver he is.

World champion, that's what kind of driver he is. And like I said F1 is sport, so the level of your performances do change year to year ( thanks to rules, tyres,cars, team mates, age etc.)

[grunge]

Whitmarsh his team principal from 2002 to 2006 had this to say about him in 2015

 

 Whitmarsh said: "Kimi is deeply frustrating, in that he's as smart as he is, and has all that pace - and it just pisses you off that he compromises it."

 

"He hasn't realised his potential - and he isn't going to now, which is a great shame. Very insightful, very dry sense of humour. I really like the bloke."

[Niceman]

People have strange memories of 2008. Kimi was looking like he was going to back to back his titles but lost a lot of points mid-season from events like Canada. He then knew he had to go for wins to stay in the title race. Spa did big damage. He should have played a more percentage game.

I think had Todt stayed at Ferrari things would have panned out differently. I’m not sure that Ferrari have ever really engineered Kimi that well. Not the way a Newey would listen to driver feedback and translate that into a car that breeds more confidence from the driver. It’s one of the reasons I would like to see Ricciardo in another car.

[NickeF1]

Go back and watch Suzuka 2005, that’s how good he was.

[barzini]

Very good, at his best no-one was better.

But most of all, the greatest driver for me to support.

[AmonGods]

He only 'seemed' to be.  Like I said, he was flattered.  

 

Remember how Vettel was said to be flattered by the Red Bull and he'd be exposed once he left?  See the difference in situation in what a real top driver looks like?  

 

It's silly to say that nothing that happened after his leaving Mclaren is relevant to bring up in terms of his form when he was there.  And it's not like he just had one or two post-Mclaren years that could be outlier seasons.  We've got more than a decade's worth of evidence since then to suggest what kind of driver he is. 

 

Kimi was amazing in 2003 and 2005 and should have been wdc in at least one of those years but for those merc engines blowing up.

You say he was flattered, I say he went from Mclaren to Ferrari and won them their last wdc, while Vettel, your 'top driver', messed up big time last year. If Vettel doesnt win the wdc this year, dunno who's gonna be more exposed, a 40year Kimi or Vettel in his prime years who can win only in a rocket.

[grunge]

Funny how the ''he was never any good'' crowd seems to know more much more about kimis worth than the team principals hes worked for..Every single one of them has mentioned hes of the best out there and two of them demonstrated that practically by hiring him back a second time

 

  Whitmarsh has been record saying Mclaren tried to hire him back in 09, then in 2012 and then again in 2013..he described him as the ''fastest man on the planet when on it'' in 09 and then ''one of the fastest guys on the planet'' in 2012....Ferrari ofcourse rehired him back after supposedly ''it was proven he wasnt any good''.

 

   and thats just two people/teams...there are countless quotes over the years of similar nature by various people involved in F1. 

Edited by grunge, 24 June 2018 - 19:18.

[Fatgadget]

Raikkonnen was the bomb while at McLaren....I will never forget a particular race (can't remember which one) where he went  through zero visibility MAXIMUM speed ..I was like..WTF!

[grunge]

Raikkonnen was the bomb while at McLaren....I will never forget a particular race (can't remember which one) where he went  through zero visibility MAXIMUM speed ..I was like..WTF!

Qualifying in Spa, 2012

Edited by grunge, 24 June 2018 - 19:20.

[noriaki]

He only 'seemed' to be. Like I said, he was flattered.

Remember how Vettel was said to be flattered by the Red Bull and he'd be exposed once he left? See the difference in situation in what a real top driver looks like?

It's silly to say that nothing that happened after his leaving Mclaren is relevant to bring up in terms of his form when he was there. And it's not like he just had one or two post-Mclaren years that could be outlier seasons. We've got more than a decade's worth of evidence since then to suggest what kind of driver he is.

What's your take on JP Montoya then? "Worse" than Massa I reckon?

Kimi is a prime example of a driver who relied upon being comfortable with the car to be fast. In hindsight I view him very similar to JB, they just had completely opposite driving styles and opposite career trajectories. On occasion both proved to be competitive with the very best out there, but on occasion both were completely at sea with the car and made look average against a Barrichello type.

Maybe the TC ban explains things for both drivers actually..

[BRK]

Fast. Annoyingly fast. From his Sauber days. Honestly, I always saw him as the next multiple world champ in F1 until Renault 2005-06 happened. Then Hamilton and Vettel arrived and somehow Kimi got lost in the crowd somewhere, results-wise. 

 

He's a blindingly quick guy and always has been. I don't know about the rest of it.   

 

Edit: that Whitmarsh quote sort of sums it up, I guess.  

Edited by BRK, 24 June 2018 - 19:27.

[Topsu]

He was fast and the sport suited him perfectly. I feel like he hasn't enjoyed the feeling of the cars in years.

[AlexPrime]

Strange career.

2002-2006 seen as one the the top guys in line to take over from the Schumacher era (along with Alonso/Montoya).

2007 WDC

2008-mid 2009 I would say on balance beaten by Massa.

mid 2009 & 2012-mid 2013 solid recovery & comeback with Lotus.

mid 2013 started getting consistently beaten by Grosjean.

2014-present paired with multi world champs Alonso & Vettel, and has been soundly beaten in all measures (points, races, qualifying, podiums, wins etc.).

 

I can't quite place him. I would not place him in the elite (Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton).......maybe around Button, Rosberg level? 

Sounds about right

[Claudius]

Interesting thread sopa! 

We were talking about this in some other thread the other day.

 

He was very fast in the Macs but never the same after that. That leads me to conclude that the car with Michelins were the perfect match for him. He was very quick and did beat JPM who was a great talent himself. 

A strange tale that a driver is so limited as to "only" get 100 % of his speed under certain circumstances but be mediocre in the others. I've never seen such a disparity before or after Kimi.

He is still an enigma. But he should retire this year IMO.

[Veemax]

He was flattered.  And it should be quite obvious looking back.  He didn't turn into some completely different driver over the course of a winter.  

 

He was never 'the fastest guy in F1'. 

 

Almost 20000 posts and you don't have a clue about the sport you claim to be watching. Quite an accomplishment.

[Niceman]

In response to the traction control theory.  James Allison reported that in those early Pirelli years Kimi did an entire race without breaking traction on his rear wheels.  That is an insane level of throttle control. 

[noikeee]

Whenever we see these incoherences I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle - he was probably a little flattered by the McLarens and probably never quite 100% as good as we thought even in those days, but also probably did have an early career peak for whatever reason that was (Michelin/Bridgestone tyre characteristics? his own attitude and lifestyle?), and we never got to see him perform as high as in the McLaren days ever again (I personally think the Lotus days were good but not 2003-2006 level).

 

I'd put those McLaren performances a small step below his peers at the time like Schumacher and Alonso, specially in consistency. There were hints, for example JPM had days he'd outpace him. I remember even in 2006 already thinking that Kimi was starting to look a little ordinary in occasion even considering that car was clearly average. But he did beat JPM and Coulthard rather convincingly, and those were 2 drivers of a very high level. It still looks inconsistent with the rest of his career, a step above it.

 

I'd say his McLaren days were still very very good, but on hindsight probably not as amazing as we thought then.

[Trust]

People in this thread should remember that Seanspeed started following F1 since 2006th season. You need to take his comments with that in mind. 

 

I would highly recommend him to watch seasons from 2001 to 2006 to see Kimi's talent.

 

It's so funny that he wants to convince us that this Kimi is THAT Kimi. You don't even have to compare his speed, just compare his consistency and wet weather skills and qualifying mistakes before and now.

[sopa]

I think looking back at 2003-2006, it makes quite a lot of sense to rate Raikkonen is top 3 together with M.Schumacher and Alonso. Though retrospectively I have questioned a bit, whether it would be fair to rate him quite on level with them. Maybe a very close 3rd. Then again depends, which exact period or year we are talking about, as Alonso had a scruffy 2004 too, and Michael was older and had started making some mistakes already.

 

As for the rest, it's indeed hard to see anyone bettering/matching Kimi at that time. Montoya was occasionally very fast, but ultimately more inconsistent, which was proven to be the case in McLaren. Button I find an interesting case though. In BAR/Honda he seemed genuinely good, maybe he was a bit underrated due to his smooth style? How did he compare to Kimi in, say, 2004 or 2006, if later on you would consider Button in similar ballpark with Kimi? I think particularly in 2006 you could make a decent case of Button performing around Raikkonen's level, as Button had Barrichello well beaten that year.

 

Interesting to look at Massa at that time though. For three seasons he was driving in Sauber, twice got beaten by team-mates and narrowly beat JV. I mean surely nobody saw in 2005 that this guy would go on to match Kimi. Looking at 2004-2005 seasons it looks unquestionable Kimi was performing at a higher level though. In 2004 Massa was still busy getting outperformed by Fisichella.

 

By 2007 tyre war had ended, and Bridgestone 'control tyres' were introduced to everyone, or however they were called. Suddenly Kimi didn't look 'special'. Yeah, he still looked like a good, fast and competitive driver, but you could have said the same about Massa at that time. An adaptable fired-up driver like Alonso has been able to go through a variety of regulations and always maintained his relentless pace. But for some reason Kimi didn't or couldn't go at full lengths to adapt to these 'control tyres', and basically ever since then he has been doing catch-up in F1. Always somebody ahead of him in making car and tyres work.

 

As for people saying that Michelins made him look great. If you gave the same Michelins to everyone today, would Kimi blitz the field? Somehow I doubt about it. I think by now time has done its job frankly.

[noikeee]

As for people saying that Michelins made him look great. If you gave the same Michelins to everyone today, would Kimi blitz the field? Somehow I doubt about it. I think by now time has done its job frankly.

 

Well as I was saying in another thread yesterday, he's 38. Very few drivers are as good at 38 as they were when they were 25, some go downhill a massive amount. I really don't think it's fair to take this season - probably his last one - as a snapshot of his career. To take the example of a few 1-time champions: You think of Damon Hill and don't immediately think of his 99 Jordan season as his real level, you think of Keke Rosberg and don't immediately think of his 86 McLaren season, you think of Alan Jones and don't immediately think of his failed comeback with Lola in 86 as well, you think of Nigel Mansell and don't judge him by McLaren 1995 etc etc.

 

Would a 38 year old Kimi blitz the field on Michelins? I absolutely would not put any money on that. A 25 year old? Probably not blitz the field, but I'd expect him to be up there around the most competitive.

 

The thing with Kimi is that unlike most drivers he didn't go suddenly downhill from 1 season to the next in his late 30s, it's been a curve pointing slowly downwards and downwards for a very long time.

Edited by noikeee, 24 June 2018 - 20:14.

[Trust]

Whenever we see these incoherences I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle - he was probably a little flattered by the McLarens and probably never quite 100% as good as we thought even in those days, but also probably did have an early career peak for whatever reason that was (Michelin/Bridgestone tyre characteristics? his own attitude and lifestyle?), and we never got to see him perform as high as in the McLaren days ever again (I personally think the Lotus days were good but not 2003-2006 level).

 

I'd put those McLaren performances a small step below his peers at the time like Schumacher and Alonso, specially in consistency. There were hints, for example JPM had days he'd outpace him. I remember even in 2006 already thinking that Kimi was starting to look a little ordinary in occasion even considering that car was clearly average. But he did beat JPM and Coulthard rather convincingly, and those were 2 drivers of a very high level. It still looks inconsistent with the rest of his career, a step above it.

 

I'd say his McLaren days were still very very good, but on hindsight probably not as amazing as we thought then.

I would rate JPM much higher than Fisi or Barrichello.