37 replies to this topic

[chr1s]

Apologies in advance for this post not being directly related to motor sport, but this has been bugging me for a while. The other day I came across an advert  for a Ferrari Dino 246gt that was originally sold new, in 1972 to Frank Williams. Now, I'm sure everyone on here is familiar with the story of Sir Franks early years in the sport, running his team on a shoe string. So if all those stories of  living on peoples sofas, sleeping in the van and running his business from the telephone box are true, what was he doing buying a brand new Ferrari? The Dino cost £5,485 in 1972 which was about the same as the average house! Surely a useful sum of money for a struggling formula one team? Obviously Franks definition of "skint" is very different to mine? 

[Tim Murray]

Here's one version of the ad:

https://www.classicd...-gt/1971/138100

It doesn't make sense. As Chr1s says, the period between Williams acquiring the car in 1971 and then 'giving'(!!!) the car to Tony Dean in 1975 was when he was living hand-to-mouth desperately trying to keep the team going. If he did somehow find the means to buy the car in 1971, it would very soon have gone to pay the bills.

[Vitesse2]

Thinking laterally, I wondered if it was really Jonathan Williams - who did of course drive for both Ferrari and Frank Williams at various times. However, the only road car mentioned in this 1981 Alan Henry profile is a 2CV ...

 

The art of giving up gracefully - Jonathan Williams

[john aston]

Motor racing team boss poncing around in a flash car he couldn't afford ? Who'd have thought it? Having read Virginia Williams book the idea of living within your means does sound a bit staid... Not unique in that but I do wonder , as said above, if many people in this rarefied little world of motor racing, actually have much idea of what poverty normally means?    

[Alan Baker]

On a pedantic note, he wouldn't have been buying a "Ferrari". The Dino never carried Ferrari badges and was regarded as a separate marque at the time. "Real" Ferraris were V-12s!

[john aston]

Even more pedantically , the Ferrari with which Phil Hill won the last GP for a front engined car  was a Ferrari . Was the lovely little Dino 206SP, as raced by Tony Dean ? 

[Michael Ferner]

Not a Ferrari 246 'Dino', but a Dino 246 'Ferrari'. Ferraris were never that stylish.

[Ristin]

Sometimes a person might not want to be publically known as the owner of a brand new Ferrari. Think of tax affairs, marriage, ongoing divorce, there are a lot of possible reasons.
So maybe he asks a trusted friend to take official ownership and hand over the car 4 years later when the situation is solved? Pay the friend a few pounds and everybody is happy.
Of course these are just random thoughts that are not related to the topic

[Arjan de Roos]

Never read or found anything on FW owning a Dino. If he did he kept it well hidden as many well known owners are described extensively in literature and sites. The car in question was sold of by auction in 2012 mentioning the same in-period ownership.

Possibly to do with De Tomaso or Politoys (no toy car jokes please) links? However FW giving away a Dino sounds very, very unlikely. Did an auction house writer invent a nice story for a good sell?

[john winfield]

chr1s, is this the more recent ad., with the car at a substantially higher price?

 

http://www.fast-clas...246gt-for-sale/

[chr1s]

Thanks everyone for the answers so far, I must admit the buying it for someone else for a fee  theory sounds plausible, and I too have never heard or read anything about Frank owning a Ferrari. I do remember reading in Dougs' book "Racers"  that Frank said he owned a number of flashy road cars over the years which had to be sold to pay for DFV re-builds. Of course  these could have been a De Tomaso and an Iso.

[TennisUK]

I too have never heard or read anything about Frank owning a Ferrari.

He did get given one in 1991 to help smooth the Alesi contract mess which I believe continues to reside in the Williams F1 collection to this day

[chr1s]

Also the Dino in question is left hand drive, which is unusual considering it was then a current production car supplied new by the UK importer.  Presumably that would have been a special request, which lends weight to the "ordered for someone" else theory?

Edited by chr1s, 27 June 2018 - 22:33.

[Alan Baker]

Maybe it was Frank Williams the actor, who played the vicar in Dad's Army!

[john winfield]

Maybe it was Frank Williams the actor, who played the vicar in Dad's Army!

 

A special deal perhaps, arranged by Private Walker?

 

 

Great to hear that Frank Williams the actor is still alive. Just him and Ian Lavender apparently from the original cast. OT, apologies....

[jtremlett]

On a pedantic note, he wouldn't have been buying a "Ferrari". The Dino never carried Ferrari badges and was regarded as a separate marque at the time. "Real" Ferraris were V-12s!

 

That's not quite true since Maranello Concessionaires did affix Ferrari badges to some UK cars.

 

Thanks everyone for the answers so far, I must admit the buying it for someone else for a fee  theory sounds plausible, and I too have never heard or read anything about Frank owning a Ferrari. I do remember reading in Dougs' book "Racers"  that Frank said he owned a number of flashy road cars over the years which had to be sold to pay for DFV re-builds. Of course  these could have been a De Tomaso and an Iso.

 

I don't know what the story is with Frank Williams' ownership of this car but I do know it was definitely supplied new to Frank Williams Racing as stated in the sale ad.

[Michael Ferner]

Frank Williams made a living buying and selling (racing) cars. Perhaps he negotiated a rebate with Ferrari, then sold the car to someone else for the original price. That's what car dealers do sometimes.

[Charlieman]

Frank Williams made a living buying and selling (racing) cars. Perhaps he negotiated a rebate with Ferrari, then sold the car to someone else for the original price. That's what car dealers do sometimes.

I think it was a wheeler dealer thing too. It fits in with buying for somebody else (for commission) to take ownership at a later date or buying a discount price left hand drive car, registered in the UK, after the initial buyer dropped out.

 

The low mileage is easy to explain; it wouldn't have looked good to own a flash car when asking for time to pay your bills.

[Doug Nye]

It would have been a wheeler-dealer mission by Frank.  I asked his son Jonathan to ask on TNF's behalf and while Frank cannot really remember the specifics, he says it’s possible he may have owned one, simply for the purpose of moving it on quickly for a profit to help finance his racing.

 

Jonathan knows that around the same time, Frank bought and sold a couple of Porsche 911s for the same purpose.

 

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Makes sense, I suppose. At about that time a colleague of my father's ordered a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, knowing that there was a substantial waiting list for them and that he could immediately move it on at a handy profit once he was finally notified that 'his' car was ready for delivery. IIRC he netted over a grand on it. Another had an immaculate very low-mileage Daimler SP250 Dart sitting under a dust sheet and on bricks in his mother's dry garage; he visited it every week to turn the engine over and dust it!

[chr1s]

 

 

It would have been a wheeler-dealer mission by Frank.  I asked his son Jonathan to ask on TNF's behalf and while Frank cannot really remember the specifics, he says it’s possible he may have owned one, simply for the purpose of moving it on quickly for a profit to help finance his racing.

 

Jonathan knows that around the same time, Frank bought and sold a couple of Porsche 911s for the same purpose.

 

DCN

 

Thanks Doug for that. Frank more than anyone has always come across as someone that would sacrifice everything for his team, I just couldn't believe that he would be that extravagant, especially then.

Edited by chr1s, 29 June 2018 - 20:41.

[john aston]

On a pedantic note, he wouldn't have been buying a "Ferrari". The Dino never carried Ferrari badges and was regarded as a separate marque at the time. "Real" Ferraris were V-12s!

The only people who regarded it as separate marque worked in Maranello's marketing team . In every UK road test I read,,  every new car listing and every classified ad I'd find the Dino under F , not D ..... 

[Ristin]

Thank you Doug for enquiring right at the source. But am I missing something? Keeping a car for four years before giving it away does not sound like a typical wheeler-dealer deal.

[chr1s]

Maybe Frank moved it on straight away but the new owner didn't  get round to registering it?

[Charlieman]

Maybe Frank moved it on straight away but the new owner didn't  get round to registering it?

As Tim Murray pointed out, the advert states that FW "gave" the car to Tony Dean in 1975 who was (surprise, surprise!) another wheeler-dealer. Just put it down to the mysteries of the motor trade which might be embarrassing to recall.

[kayemod]

In every UK road test I read,,  every new car listing and every classified ad I'd find the Dino under F , not D ..... 

 

Probably F for Fiat.

[Vitesse2]

As Tim Murray pointed out, the advert states that FW "gave" the car to Tony Dean in 1975 who was (surprise, surprise!) another wheeler-dealer. Just put it down to the mysteries of the motor trade which might be embarrassing to recall.

"Temporarily imported" on a Q plate? Only ever seen on the road with a trade plate, thus avoiding the need for a tax disc?

 

And don't let's mention cigars ...

[Charlieman]

"Temporarily imported" on a Q plate? 

When I was in short trousers, there were no Q plates, and the Dino qualifies of that time.

 

Q plates followed DVLA/DVLC destruction of paper documentation, simultaneously recording resurrections of old cars which existed physically after being written off. I am sure that WB would inform you further about how that worked out. There was a later exercise to extend age related number plates to vehicles which had been ascribed a Q plate.

 

But no newish car would be given a Q plate unless it was seriously dodgy. A Q plate devalues.

[Vitesse2]

When I was in short trousers, there were no Q plates ...

You were in short trousers before 1921?

Q CODES : TEMPORARY IMPORT SERIES
Q codes are not "area" codes - but codes which show that a vehicle has been temporarily imported. The code contains up to four
serial numbers, the letter Q and then the year letter or, since 2001, number (e.g. 1234QX during 'X' registration, or 175Q02 during
'02' registration). Prior to 1983, this was reversed, with the letters preceding the serial numbers (e.g. QX1234). This system started
in 1981 with the QX prefix.
Q code prefixes were introduced in 1921, and until 1981 the second letter of the Q code was not a year letter, but a code letter which
identified the licensing authority which issued the mark. QC, QD, QH, QN, QS prefixes were issued by the RAC, QQ and QR were
issued by the Greater London Council and the rest (except QO, QU - QZ) were issued by the AA. QX was the first year letter prefix,
which ran with the X suffix in 1981/2, and QY prefix ran with the Y suffix in 1982/3. The system was then reversed from 1 August
1983.
N.B. Not to be confused with the Q "year" prefix which identifies vehicles of unknown age/origin, and use the normal system - e.g.
Q123ABC

http://www.cvpg.co.uk/REG.pdf

[opplock]

 

 

But no newish car would be given a Q plate unless it was seriously dodgy. 

 

Back in the early 90s I was one of the few people to own a Caterham that wasn't on a Q plate. It was an ex works race car (but road legal) registered as having been imported from Irish Republic. Long story but for a very small company Caterham were surprisingly good at tax avoidance. 

[john aston]

Tony Dean ? Close but no cigar ...I thank you.

[DogEarred]

Ah! The KE7!

Great car. Really smoked 'em....

Edited by DogEarred, 01 July 2018 - 21:04.

[Charlieman]

You were in short trousers before 1921?

http://www.cvpg.co.uk/REG.pdf

A Q or Qx Area Code (temporary import prior to 1981) is not the same as a Q Plate (post 1983 query mark vehicle registration). 

 

Weren't you tempted by a BL "S Plate Special Deal"?

[Parkesi]

After 2 months offline I`d like to add some Information which might be of interest. 

Mike Parkes made a note in his diary (01.05.1968): "Frank Williams phoned and offered 2350 GBP for GTB".

Andreas

[john aston]

Which would make it a 275 GTB , not a (246) Dino nor 308GTB 

[RTH]

Apologies in advance for this post not being directly related to motor sport, but this has been bugging me for a while. The other day I came across an advert  for a Ferrari Dino 246gt that was originally sold new, in 1972 to Frank Williams. Now, I'm sure everyone on here is familiar with the story of Sir Franks early years in the sport, running his team on a shoe string. So if all those stories of  living on peoples sofas, sleeping in the van and running his business from the telephone box are true, what was he doing buying a brand new Ferrari? The Dino cost £5,485 in 1972 which was about the same as the average house! Surely a useful sum of money for a struggling formula one team? Obviously Franks definition of "skint" is very different to mine? 

 Maybe in the very north east of England , We had an average 3 bed semi  30 miles from London at that time it sold for £22000. A 246GT Dino was  a bargain at the time - today  north of £300,000 some have sold for much more . The house today probably £750,000.

[john aston]

Are yer sayin we're all reet poor Up North man ? Ah'll get me whippet and get down the allotment to tend me leeks like;

[Charlieman]

We had an average 3 bed semi  30 miles from London at that time it sold for £22000. A 246GT Dino was  a bargain at the time - today  north of £300,000 some have sold for much more . The house today probably £750,000.

If a Dino ran on the road in the 1970s, all of the bodywork and floor pan would have been replaced over the years. Some panels more than once at great expense. It would have been a lousy investment for the first few owners.

 

Modern day owners who keep a rebuilt Dino in a humidity controlled environment have fewer bodywork concerns. I daresay a few have still been caught out by the cost of maintaining their "investments".