32 replies to this topic

[oldclassiccar]

Hi

 

A few years ago I bought a bunch of old racing car photos, several of which feature Alfa Tipo Bs.

 

In with them was this slightly fuzzy snapshot of a part-dismantled car, can anyone help id it please?

 

 

For some reason the photo only shows in my preview, not in the post itself, so if it doesn't show, try this link to the photo:

http://s104980574.we...misc7/car25.jpg

 

thanks, RJ

 

Edited by oldclassiccar, 05 July 2018 - 08:46.

[Charlieman]

I can't see the embedded photo either but the external link works.

 

Is that a Brooklands style silencer propped up on the left of the photo? A right hand drive car, two seater width? The tyres look 1920s width and the brake drums look serious. All those lateral tubes as the front of the car look interesting -- very short trailing arms?

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, looks like a Brooklands silencer. Central steering (look at the transfer gear on the firewall), but wide body - perhaps a modified two-seater? Those lateral tubes look like torsion bars? IFS, to me the car looks definitely thirties, road-racing style.

[Vitesse2]

Hi

 

A few years ago I bought a bunch of old racing car photos, several of which feature Alfa Tipo Bs.

 

In with them was this slightly fuzzy snapshot of a part-dismantled car, can anyone help id it please?

 

 

For some reason the photo only shows in my preview, not in the post itself, so if it doesn't show, try this link to the photo:

http://s104980574.we...misc7/car25.jpg

 

thanks, RJ

Apparently your photo hosting site doesn't support HTTPS. See this thread - you seem to be in the same boat as Afterburner (and at least one other member who has contacted me):

 

https://forums.autos...ow-fully-https/

 

Agreed on the Brooklands can. There seem to be four engines on the left, of which three look identical. The fourth looks like a very serious bit of kit!

[Charlieman]

Central steering (look at the transfer gear on the firewall), but wide body - perhaps a modified two-seater? Those lateral tubes look like torsion bars? IFS, to me the car looks definitely thirties, road-racing style.

Agreed about steering owing to the location of the windscreen and the control arm parallel to the chassis longitudinal. 

 

Mirror on the right hand side of the driver?

 

As viewed from front of car: There is a lateral truss joining the longitudinal chassis members. Behind that, the larger diameter front bulges are probably rotational dampers connected to torsion arms; the front suspension is not symmetric. Laterally, the front suspension is controlled by a crude wishbone through which the track rods pass.

 

Past the bonnet, there's a bell housing sticking up. Was the engine in line with the gearbox?

[Dutchy]

Tipo B Alfa most definitely.

Second series wide body.

As to which one the candidates are:

50001 Loius Fontes

50003 Charlie Martin

50007 Richard Shuttleworth

As far as I'm aware the other Tipo Bs in England at the time (50005 and 50006) had Dubonnet IFS so they are ruled out.

Edited by Dutchy, 05 July 2018 - 14:49.

[Roger Clark]

Tipo B Alfa most definitely.
Second series wide body.
As to which one the candidates are:
50001 Loius Fontes
50003 Charlie Martin
50007 Richard Shutleworth
As far as I'm aware the other Tipo Bs in England at the time (50005 and 50006) had Dubonnet IFS so they are ruled out.

I was about to say the same!

[oldclassiccar]

Very interesting, thanks.

 

With this shot was one of Hon. Brian Lewis in his car, another two of Ramponi and Ivanowsky in earlier models (Posthumus), Nigel Mann's Monza 2.6, and Powys-Lybbe in a 2.9 (Guy Griffiths).

 

RJ

[Porsche718]

The car is definitely a P3. But 50001? 

 

Fontes lost his license about the same time as the car arrived in GB, and I didn't think it ever raced in England, so why the Brooklands silencer?

 

Also no mention on Peter Giddings website about it having received a torsion bar front end?

[Vitesse2]

The car is definitely a P3. But 50001? 

 

Fontes lost his license about the same time as the car arrived in GB, and I didn't think it ever raced in England, so why the Brooklands silencer?

 

Also no mention on Peter Giddings website about it having received a torsion bar front end?

He may not have expected - or at least hoped to avoid - a custodial sentence. Probably didn't reckon on a 10-year driving ban either. So fitting a can would have been the first pre-requisite, even for testing at Brooklands. When he was released from prison in early 1938 he swiftly regained his pilot's licence - he took part in the 1938 King's Cup air race - and also opened a speedboat hire business in Torquay. During 1938/39 he was one of Britain's leading powerboat racers in his Miss Torbay - which was powered by the engine from the Alfa.

[Michael Ferner]

Once you know what it is, it's easy to confirm... ... but the firewall looks pretty convincing, including the oil filler location. I think I've seen this front suspension setup before, but I'm away from my books, and picture hunting is not Mr. Google's speciality

[StanBarrett2]

Always great to have a Tony Matthews' cutaway to study details.

Tony's 'P3' ( P2 Tipo B ) front detail

[Roger Clark]

Tipo B Alfa most definitely.
Second series wide body.
As to which one the candidates are:
50001 Loius Fontes
50003 Charlie Martin
50007 Richard Shutleworth
As far as I'm aware the other Tipo Bs in England at the time (50005 and 50006) had Dubonnet IFS so they are ruled out.

Simon Moore (Magnificent Monopostos) says that Shuttleworth’s car was 5007, a first series car. Denis Jenkinson, in Directory of Historic Racing Cars says that it was 50007, a second series. Simon does say that there is some doubt about the origins of the car but I would be inclined to follow him here.

Simon doesn’t mention Charlie Martin racing 50003 at Brooklands but Jack Bartlett did after he bought the car in 1938. He found that the engine blocks were cracked beyond repair and he had new ones cast. In a letter to Motor Sport, May 1975 (quoted by Simon Moore) he said that it took six months to find someone to machine the two blocks and cost £500 and this was only the start of the rebuild which included new stronger halfshafts, new crown wheel and pinion etc. Is it possible that the picture was taken during the rebuild?

However, at some time before March 1938, 50003 was fitted with de Rahm shock absorbers which this car doesn’t have.

[Roger Clark]

I’ve just read an interview with Martin in Motor Sport August 1980. He did race his Alfa at Brooklands.

[Charlieman]

As far as I'm aware the other Tipo Bs in England at the time (50005 and 50006) had Dubonnet IFS so they are ruled out.

I'm not sure what a Dubonnet IFS comprises. Was Dubonnet a popular label of the time for independent front suspensions? Torsion arms with a wrap around damper? That fits with the photo which started this thread.

[Paul Parker]

Tipo B Alfa most definitely.

Second series wide body.

As to which one the candidates are:

50001 Loius Fontes

50003 Charlie Martin

50007 Richard Shutleworth

As far as I'm aware the other Tipo Bs in England at the time (50005 and 50006) had Dubonnet IFS so they are ruled out.

 

Beat me to it, one look was enough, the wide body is unmistakable.

[Michael Ferner]

Always great to have a Tony Matthews' cutaway to study details.
Tony's 'P3' ( P2 Tipo B ) front detail

Great, but unfortunately totally unlike the front suspension in the photograph.

[Michael Ferner]

I'm not sure what a Dubonnet IFS comprises. Was Dubonnet a popular label of the time for independent front suspensions? Torsion arms with a wrap around damper? That fits with the photo which started this thread.

It's not a Dubonnet IFS. Dubonnets are easy to spot, basically a swing axle for the front.

[Tim Murray]

The Dubonnet suspension system utilised individual enclosed spring/damper units, one for each wheel, attached to the ends of a transverse cross member and operated by short trailing arms attached to the wheels. Think of a lever-arm shock absorber with the spring inside the shock absorber as well:

[Geoff E]

I’ve just read an interview with Martin in Motor Sport August 1980. He did race his Alfa at Brooklands.

He certainly raced there in an Alfa on 17 Oct 1936 where he "sprinted away from the field". He finished third but was given a 1 minute penalty for starting too soon.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, Tim, for explaining the Dubonnet suspension - it's clearly not as I remembered! Anyway, the car in question has definitely not a Dubonnet front, and furthermore, I think the fuzziness of the picture has mislead me - i now believe it has, in fact, a standard Tipo B front end, as shown in Tony's cutaway (apologies to Marc! ). It may well be the Fontes car with the engine permanently removed, as in a normal situation where the engine is removed for servicing only, the radiator would usually remain in place, wouldn't it?

[Tim Murray]

Thanks, Tim, for explaining the Dubonnet suspension - it's clearly not as I remembered!

My pleasure, Michael. I brushed up on my knowledge of the Dubonnet system a few years ago after I came upon ERA R8C at a classic car show. The car is fitted with Porsche-type IFS, but the placard describing the car stated it had Dubonnet IFS. Although I tried hard, I couldn’t convince the bloke manning the stand that this was wrong, mainly because I wasn’t too sure exactly how Dubonnet worked. Now I know, so if the same situation ever happens again, I’ll ‘ave ‘im!



(Sorry, veering OT here)

[kayemod]

(Sorry, veering OT here)

 

No need to apologise, OT posts are often even more interesting than the OT (on-topic) ones.

[bradbury west]

As a well known non engineer here, I will avoid giving my views of the Dubonnet variants. I have asked Tim to post a couple of pics from The Old Motor which shows the original design. The variants are simple swing axle systems with and enclosed spring, I suspect. Singer had something similar. A cruder version of the original, seen on ,the glorious Xenia, is found on the Frisky car suspension, which also mimics the cruder still, imho, rubber in torsion system on the well proven r i t version on Indespension trailer suspension units.
I became interested in ususual suspensions from Len Terry's mk 6 design, and it went on from there, especially an interest in the very extensive work, and its variations, of Jean Albert Gregoire, which led onto looking tangentially at various other fascinating systems. I know, I need to get out more....
Gerard Gamand or Jean-Maurice Gigleux, both erstwhile of this parish kindly sent me a scan of the original Dubonnet system some years back, one shot of which is in stuff I have asked Tim to post.
Roger Lund

Edit spelling

[Tim Murray]

Here are Roger’s pics:

[bradbury west]

Thanks Tim
RL

[Allan Lupton]

Health matters have kept me away a bit so I couldn't weigh in earlier and by now the matter of the front suspension of the car in the photo has been resolved - it has the standard semi-elliptic springs and beam axle of the original Type B clearly visible. Front shackles are clear to see and the dampers are in the right place and could either be hydraulic (de Ram?) or friction with dirt-shield casing.

Here's a photo of the original Type B:

 

And here's the Dubonnet-suspension version:

[Porsche718]

Despite the fact that we are settled on this being a P3, I thought I'd post this pic showing clearly the firewall, rivet holes, and tunnel opening being the same as our photo.

 

 

[RogerFrench]

Not swing axle, Roger Lund, but trailing arm.
Swing axles run across the car, like VW beetle rear or LMB front.
Didn't some Dubonnet axles have leading arms?

[StanBarrett2]

The Tipo B can be considered leading arm, as the hub  c/l is ahead of the suspension hinge point

 

According to notes I have there were 3 Dubonnet sprung cars, all the 1935 built cars -  50005 / 50006 and 50007

[Allan Lupton]

I think most Dubonnet IFS used leading arm, probably because brake torque lifts the front of the car (later re-invented as Anti-Dive geometry for other IFS systems).

 

Not many racing cars had Dubonnet, but production Vauxhalls of the 1930s/40s did and I expect other GM products of the time (e.g. Opel) did too.

[bradbury west]

Many thanks, RogerFrench, for the technical corection. A slip of the fingers. Please see the first words of my relevant post... but I remain a champion of accuracy being the watchword of this platform.

I am , however, familiar with the swing axle concept, especially , for an entirely unconnected reason, as I have made a specific note over recent years of the various Mercedes road cars, especially the pre WW 2 variants, which have suspension of that design, but with their third helper spring. I recall too, being quite taken by what I saw as a yoke type swinging arrangement on the Skoda saloons in the 50s, similar, IIRC, to the Derby Maserati.
Roger Lund.

Edit. Re Tipo B Alfas, I recall being on the edge of a conversation at VSCC Silverstone or Prescott some years back when Rodney Felton was explaining how he had been left in no doubt that his Tipo B was not to run with Dubonnet type front suspension.

Edited by bradbury west, 07 July 2018 - 17:02.

[Roger Clark]

The Tipo B can be considered leading arm, as the hub c/l is ahead of the suspension hinge point


According to notes I have there were 3 Dubonnet sprung cars, all the 1935 built cars - 50005 / 50006 and 50007

Simon Moore says that 50007 was a non-independent car, sold at the end of 1935 to Count Jose de Villapadierna in Spain and later, via Jack Lemon Burton, to Frank Griswold in the USA. Ferrari did have three Dubonnet cars in 1935 but one was crashed by Chiron in the Swiss Grand Prix.

Simon says that there were10 Second Series cars numbered 50001 to 50010 although two may have been the Bimotores. 50001 - 50004 were built in 1934. The cars also had Ferrari numbers (SFxx) which makes identification even more difficult.

There was one additional Dubonnet car: 5002, a first series car converted in early 1936 and raced by Hans Ruesch.

Simon believes that the Dubonnet design and fitting was done by Ferrari in their Modena workshops.