5339 replies to this topic

[Cacarella]

I'm guessing as part of the settlement, both sides signed NDAs

Edited by Cacarella, 04 March 2020 - 11:54.

[rodlamas]

Well, if Ferrari is disqualified from the season and other cars move up

- Hamilton gets 2 more wins, Bottas 1.
- Ricciardo/Renault get a podium in Italy.
- Stroll gets a podium in Germany.
- Sainz gets another podium in Hungary.
- Albon gets three podiums, Mexico, Suzuka & Spa and probably finishes 4th in the WDC.

Will have a look into that.

[Astandahl]

Lmao if the FIA recieved the info from an unauthorized source  

 

The FIA  either should have not released that statement or explained exactly what happened. If they didn't because they can't use what they've learnt the twist would be amazing.

Edited by Astandahl, 04 March 2020 - 11:56.

[acf69]

This settlement was so short sighted. They should have just come clean, taken away wins and hence money from last year and move on.

 

Now this story will continue for a long time and further undermine the credibility of Ferrari and FIA.

[pdac]

But what about the Ferrari whistleblower?

 

Well, I would say that if there were to be any court dispute over this, the whistleblower would have to give evidence. Do we think this person would be willing to do that in court. I'm not quite sure what their motive for revealing things were in the first place, so I'm not really sure about how willing they would be to proceed further.

[Huffer]

Lmao if the FIA recieved the info from an unauthorized source

 

The FIA  either should have not released that statement or explained exactly what happened. If they didn't because they can't use what they've learnt the twist would be amazing.

 

Since when was that a problem for the FIA? The second WMSC hearing against McLaren in 2007 was based on information that they had illegally obtained via a leak from the Italian authorities. When it was pointed out that the evidence could not be used due to it's legality, the response was "the legality of the evidence doesn't matter".
 

[pdac]

Added to that the illegal DAS that is allowed this season but banned for 2021 of the team that bought the last 7 championships

 

No that's the legal DAS that's allowed this season but, because it's legal but is not desirable, they are adjusting the rules so that it will be illegal next season.

[shure]

Well, if Ferrari is disqualified from the season and other cars move up

- Hamilton gets 2 more wins, Bottas 1.
- Ricciardo/Renault get a podium in Italy.
- Stroll gets a podium in Germany.
- Sainz gets another podium in Hungary.
- Albon gets three podiums, Mexico, Suzuka & Spa and probably finishes 4th in the WDC.

Will have a look into that.

In the past they have excluded teams but left the drivers alone.  Possible they might do the same her (IF it turns out Ferrari are guilty of anything to the extent that DSQ is warranted)

[pdac]

 

Either you are ironic or you only did read the first half of the statement i.e. this:

"We, the undersigned teams, were surprised and shocked by the FIA’s statement of Friday 28 February regarding the conclusion of its investigation into the Scuderia Ferrari Formula 1 Power Unit.

 

An international sporting regulator has the responsibility to act with the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency.

 

After months of investigations that were undertaken by the FIA only following queries raised by other teams, we strongly object to the FIA reaching a confidential settlement agreement with Ferrari to conclude this matter."

 

 

This part tells a different story. You may choose not to believe it to be true and just a bluff but I would not make such an assumption, at least for now. (bolding emphasis mine).

"Therefore, we hereby state publicly our shared commitment to pursue full and proper disclosure in this matter, to ensure that our sport treats all competitors fairly and equally. We do so on behalf of the fans, the participants and the stakeholders of Formula One.

 

In addition, we reserve our rights to seek legal redress, within the FIA’s due process and before the competent courts."

 

 

Do you not understand what that statement means??

 

They WANT full disclosure (but they know they are not entitled to it)

 

The RESERVE their RIGHT TO SEEK LEGAL REDRESS (they might go to court over it - but not that they think they have any chance of winning a case)

 

Like I say, it's all just posturing. It's exactly what I would do if I was aggrieved. It still means little more than those animals that puff themselves up to try to look bigger - they are not actually bigger they are just trying to be scary.

[Marklar]

Added to that the illegal DAS that is allowed this season but banned for 2021 of the team that bought the last 7 championships

DAS is legal. But that wouldnt fit to your narrative

[Huffer]

In the past they have excluded teams but left the drivers alone.  Possible they might do the same her (IF it turns out Ferrari are guilty of anything to the extent that DSQ is warranted)

 

I honestly don't think that excluding from last years results in any way is a viable punishment. It's something that's open to too much wrangling from the other teams. I'd rather go out for a straight monetary fine and any other sanctions that make sense. The most extreme would be exclusion from two or more races this season.

I think most of all, the other teams just want it out in the open that Ferrari had been found doing something bad, rather than trying to alter the race results. It would be damaging enough to the Ferrari brand that one could consider it punishment enough.

[Jvr]

Do you not understand what that statement means??

 

They WANT full disclosure (but they know they are not entitled to it)

 

The RESERVE their RIGHT TO SEEK LEGAL REDRESS (they might go to court over it - but not that they think they have any chance of winning a case)

 

Like I say, it's all just posturing. It's exactly what I would do if I was aggrieved. It still means little more than those animals that puff themselves up to try to look bigger - they are not actually bigger they are just trying to be scary.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that conflict what the teams just released.

 

Let's disagree then, I do not think it is just posturing, the teams behind Ferrari in last year's table have a vested interest of tens of millions in prize money, so I think there are tens of millions reasons to believe they are not bluffing.

[Ferrari2183]

Good day everybody... Long time no typing over here.

 

While a lot of what's been said in this thread is true, it should be remembered that NONE of these teams, who are up in arms now, were prepared to lodge a formal protest regarding the legality of the Ferrari power unit last season so excuse me for dismissing this whole fairness of competition palaver. It's too late to alter the classifications as well... That time has come and gone. This is about the the technology being used and not being caught out by future developments in the area.

 

I have little doubt that Ferrari are/were operating in the grey area but that doesn't mean that these very teams who didn't protest should be privy to "full disclosure".

 

That's a bunch of bollocks.

 

That said, the FIA were extremely naive in their issuing of that statement.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 04 March 2020 - 12:30.

[shure]

The best kind of legal.

 

At no point did Mercedes (or Ferrari for that matter) break the rules.

At no point did I say that, either.  The discussion was on spirit vs letter of the rules.  They broke the former, but not the latter.  So definitely not illegal, but also not wholly ethical.

 

It's quite relevant because there may well be parallels to this case.  Those who were oil burning did it with the express intention to circumvent the rules.  It remains to be seen exactly what Ferrari may have done in this case, but if they are found to have been deliberately circumventing the rules without actually breaking any of them, then it would be hard to see how they could be judged differently.  Lot of "ifs," though

[pdac]

I honestly don't think that excluding from last years results in any way is a viable punishment. It's something that's open to too much wrangling from the other teams. I'd rather go out for a straight monetary fine and any other sanctions that make sense. The most extreme would be exclusion from two or more races this season.

I think most of all, the other teams just want it out in the open that Ferrari had been found doing something bad, rather than trying to alter the race results. It would be damaging enough to the Ferrari brand that one could consider it punishment enough.

 

But if the FIA did this they would open themselves up to questions about the severity of the "penalty" given out. There would have to be a statement from ALL of the teams to agree that the penalty was sufficient, which I doubt they are all willing to do given that none of the other Ferrari-powered teams are supporting this initiative.

[Ferrari2183]

Well, I would say that if there were to be any court dispute over this, the whistleblower would have to give evidence. Do we think this person would be willing to do that in court. I'm not quite sure what their motive for revealing things were in the first place, so I'm not really sure about how willing they would be to proceed further.

If the teams had a whistleblower and were confident of the illegality, why didn't they lodge a formal protest or dispute the classifications in a timely manner?

[Hellenic tifosi]

Another reason for the teams wanting clarification is a chance to get further information on Ferrari's PU. Isn't it worth a shot? 

[pdac]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions that conflict what the teams just released.

 

Let's disagree then, I do not think it is just posturing, the teams behind Ferrari in last year's table have a vested interest of tens of millions in prize money, so I think there are tens of millions reasons to believe they are not bluffing.

 

I would suggest it's you that is making assumptions. You are reading into this more than what it is. It's just a statement. Nothing more.

 

Edit:

Oh, and if you continue this argument then I will consider consulting my solicitor regarding taking legal action against you in order to seek suitable compensation for the damage caused to me. You see how it works now?

Edited by pdac, 04 March 2020 - 12:18.

[player1s]

 

That said, the FIA were extremely naive in their issuing of that statement.

 

Thats what boggles me. What where they thinking? Who thought this was a good idea and something that wouldnt cause issues?

[shure]

/

For someone who questioned and postulated at every opportunity regarding Mercedes, this time around you are quite the apologist aren’t you? 

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with those two quotes?  In the first I said the FIA has an obligation to give a fair and transparent ruling, while in the second I was explaining why there was controversy with the oil burning.  How is either of those being an apologist?  

[pdac]

 

Good day everybody... Long time no typing over here.

 

While a lot of what's been said in this thread is true, it should be remembered that NONE of these teams, who are up in arms now, were prepared to lodge a formal protest regarding the legality of the Ferrari power unit last season so excuse for me for dismissing the this whole fairness of competition palaver. It's too late to alter the classifications as well... That time has come and gone. This is about the the technology being used and not being caught out by future developments in the area.

 

I have little doubt that Ferrari are/were operating in the grey area but that doesn't mean that these very teams who didn't protest should be privy to "full disclosure".

 

That's a bunch of bollocks.

 

That said, the FIA were extremely naive in their issuing of that statement.

 

 

What was the alternative? Do you not think that someone would ask "oh, by the way, what happened about that investigation you were conducting?". They had to issue some sort of statement on the matter. I don't see that they could have worded it any differently and been able to avoid any of what has subsequently happened.

[Ferrari2183]

DAS is legal. But that wouldnt fit to your narrative

Well yes, only because the technical regulations regarding "steering" (the regulation which makes this contraption acceptable) are vague. In what world can pulling the steering column back be considered steering a car? We're not flying jets. 

Edited by Ferrari2183, 04 March 2020 - 13:20.

[Sash1]

The FIA has to do something, because basically, by saing this:

 

 

 

an international sporting regulator has the responsibility to act with the highest standards of governance, integrity and transparency.

 

7 of 10 teams on the F1 grid have just called the FIA out for a lack of governance, integrity and transparency. 
If 7 of my clients said that about my company or 7 of the 25 members of a board that I govern, I'd either kick them out, sue them or step down because I really did something wrong.

[GAZF1nut]

Well, if Ferrari is disqualified from the season and other cars move up

- Hamilton gets 2 more wins, Bottas 1.
- Ricciardo/Renault get a podium in Italy.
- Stroll gets a podium in Germany.
- Sainz gets another podium in Hungary.
- Albon gets three podiums, Mexico, Suzuka & Spa and probably finishes 4th in the WDC.

Will have a look into that.

Max would win singapore, not Lewis,

[pdac]

The FIA has to do something, because basically, by saing this:

 

 

7 of 10 teams on the F1 grid have just called the FIA out for a lack of governance, integrity and transparency. 
If 7 of my clients said that about my company or 7 of the 25 members of a board that I govern, I'd either kick them out, sue them or step down because I really did something wrong.

 

Remember, though, that's 7 out of 10 clients that have no other choice but to continue to do business with you and that you have done what you have done because to do anything else might cause problems with the other 3 and one of those is, possibly, your most valuable client.

Edited by pdac, 04 March 2020 - 12:34.

[Andy35]

The FIA will have to sanction themselves now for bringing the sport into disrepute.

 

Andy

 

 

[pdac]

The FIA will have to sanction themselves now for bringing the sport into disrepute.

 

Andy

 

Yes, they should suspend all of their activities for one year.

[player1s]

What was the alternative? Do you not think that someone would ask "oh, by the way, what happened about that investigation you were conducting?". They had to issue some sort of statement on the matter. I don't see that they could have worded it any differently and been able to avoid any of what has subsequently happened.

The alternatives are

 

- We haven't found anything wrong

- we have found something wrong and fined Ferrari xx amount

- We found some irregularities but nothing conclusive and therefor end the investigation.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

Remember, though, that's 7 out of 10 clients that have no other choice but to continue to do business with you and that you have done what you have done because to do anything else might cause problems with the other 3 and one of those is, possibly, your most valuable client.

 

they do have a choice though? nobody is forcing them to be in F1 or to work with the FIA, the FIA would be monumentally stupid if they forced out 70% of the grid over something like this, it would literally destroy the FIA and Formula One...

[HammyHamiltonFan]

The alternatives are

 

- We haven't found anything wrong

- we have found something wrong and fined Ferrari xx amount

- We found some irregularities but nothing conclusive and therefor end the investigation.

 

they clearly found something and I sincerely doubt the 7 teams who signed that letter would accept them just slapping Ferrari on the wrist with a fine given they potentially won races and finished higher in the constructors championship because of something illegal...

[NickeF1]

Mercedes questioning FIA, FIA will now respond with n making the DAS system illegal.

[CL16]

Mercedes questioning FIA, FIA will now respond with n making the DAS system illegal.

And what punishment to the other 6 teams who have signed against the FIA

[Baddoer]

Well, if Ferrari is disqualified from the season and other cars move up

- Hamilton gets 2 more wins, Bottas 1.
- Ricciardo/Renault get a podium in Italy.
- Stroll gets a podium in Germany.
- Sainz gets another podium in Hungary.
- Albon gets three podiums, Mexico, Suzuka & Spa and probably finishes 4th in the WDC.

Will have a look into that.

Nobody bothered by four more cars running Ferrari engines it seems.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

it's pretty obvious why this was done; the FIA don't want to upset Ferrari so they struck a deal with them instead of punishing them as they would have done literally any other team, they probably didn't want to make it public even but I imagine they knew it was going to leak out so though they'd try and bury it at the end of testing...

[pdac]

they do have a choice though? nobody is forcing them to be in F1 or to work with the FIA, the FIA would be monumentally stupid if they forced out 70% of the grid over something like this, it would literally destroy the FIA and Formula One...

 

You really think this?

 

They are all businesses. Quite large ones. They all have little/no other places to market their wares. Of course, in theory, nobody is forcing them to be in F1, but the alternative would be to either close up shop or reduce your business to a fraction of what it is now.

[shure]

it's pretty obvious why this was done; the FIA don't want to upset Ferrari so they struck a deal with them instead of punishing them as they would have done literally any other team, they probably didn't want to make it public even but I imagine they knew it was going to leak out so though they'd try and bury it at the end of testing...

If that's true it shows exceptionally poor judgement.  How could they not imagine that the other teams might be mightily upset by this?

[taran]

Nobody bothered by four more cars running Ferrari engines it seems.

 

Haas and Alfa Romeo didn't seem to have the magic speed boost.

Perhaps the FIA can get Ferrari for not providing the same engine tech?

[Ferrari2183]

What was the alternative? Do you not think that someone would ask "oh, by the way, what happened about that investigation you were conducting?". They had to issue some sort of statement on the matter. I don't see that they could have worded it any differently and been able to avoid any of what has subsequently happened.

True, but as per the disgruntled teams own press release and lack of protest, this was just a fishing expedition.

 

The FIA, in their statement, should have made mention of the legality of the power unit and if this could not be determined (either way) then it should have stated that they've been told to cease what they're doing. The whole "settlement" business stinks because it could now be construed that Ferrari with these technical commitments according to the agreement are actually policing other manufacturers power units. 

[kumo7]

McLaren being publicly punished for 100 milion.

Honda banned form the races.

 

seeing this precedence, I see no reason as to why Ferrari may not be punished with the cause made public.

[player1s]

they clearly found something and I sincerely doubt the 7 teams who signed that letter would accept them just slapping Ferrari on the wrist with a fine given they potentially won races and finished higher in the constructors championship because of something illegal...

that would partly depend on the wording. But a "they did a no-no and got fined" would go over better with the teams than the current "we completed the investigation and settled and we wont tell the rest what was going on"

Edited by player1s, 04 March 2020 - 12:54.

[george1981]

My guess is that last year the FIA and the stewards checked the Ferrari multiple times and did not find anything untoward based on their methods of checking. 

Since then the FIA have taken a much greater look at the Ferrari power train and with Ferrari's cooperation have found ways that the Ferrari would have breached the regulations (either intentionally or unintentionally) but it wouldn't have been found with the methods the FIA were using in 2019. 

The FIA can't prove that Ferrari were doing something that was against the regulations but have now closed down some areas where Ferrari could have breached the regulations. 

To me this is a lot like the Benetton launch control, the FIA found it was on the car and could be activated from the car, but couldn't prove that Benetton was using it in races so they weren't punished for it. 

[pdac]

The alternatives are

 

- We haven't found anything wrong

- we have found something wrong and fined Ferrari xx amount

- We found some irregularities but nothing conclusive and therefor end the investigation.

 

- We haven't found anything wrong

I would suggest that they have found something wrong. To make this statement would just be saying to Ferrari - just go on doing whatever you want, we're happy to allow you.

 

- We have found something wrong and fined Ferrari xx amount

What if Ferrari do not agree? How would that unfold? Ferrari might take them to court in order to protect their reputation. The FIA would then have to provide conclusive evidence or lose their case. What if the evidence they have is not robust enough to stand up in court or, for whatever reason, some of it is not permissible. And even if it all were, what would the cost be to both parties and to the reputation of both?

 

- We found some irregularities but nothing conclusive and therefor end the investigation.

Do you really think the rest of the teams would respond any differently to this statement? I don't.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

You really think this?

 

They are all businesses. Quite large ones. They all have little/no other places to market their wares. Of course, in theory, nobody is forcing them to be in F1, but the alternative would be to either close up shop or reduce your business to a fraction of what it is now.

 

given several of them have been rumoured to be quitting already I think it's impossible not to think this tbh, you're kidding yourself if you think that organisations like Mercedes and Red Bull will stay in a sport if they think it's not being run fairly.

 

If that's true it shows exceptionally poor judgement.  How could they not imagine that the other teams might be mightily upset by this?

 

the FIA have a history of showing poor judgement...they probably hoped the other teams wouldn't want to waste time on it, which was stupid of them, Mercedes and Red Bull in particular were never going to accept this kind of decision.

[HammyHamiltonFan]

that would partly depend on the wording. But a "they did a no-no and got fined" would go over better with the times than the current "we completed the investigation and settled and we wont tell the rest what was going on"

 

pretty sure Mercedes and Red Bull would want a lot more than a fine imposed on Ferrari if they were found to have cheated and taken wins away from them mate

[Ferrari2183]

they clearly found something and I sincerely doubt the 7 teams who signed that letter would accept them just slapping Ferrari on the wrist with a fine given they potentially won races and finished higher in the constructors championship because of something illegal...

Again I ask, if this were the case, why didn't they formally protest the power unit last year or dispute the final classification in the time set forth?

 

The teams themselves being unsure of the legality, with the assistance of a whistleblower, has led to this mess. They're fishing.

[tigerbalm]

Other than the lack of transparency, I suspect one of the main reasons the teams are upset is as MotorSport.com says

 

 

The FIA regulations are clear that it is now too late for Ferrari's rival to lodge an official protest over the matter or ask for a right of review.

In some cases, teams have been able to reconvene stewards after events to look at cases when a new element has emerged.

But according to the FIA's International Sporting Code, this avenue has been closed off because of time limits. A right of review needs to be brought 14 calendar days after the publication of the final classification of a competitor, and no less than four days prior to the FIA prize-giving ceremony.

 

This is going to be a mess thanks to the FIA 

[pdac]

McLaren being publicly punished for 100 milion.

Honda banned form the races.

 

seeing this precedence, I see no reason as to why Ferrari may not be punished with the cause made public.

 

Proof, perhaps. From the statement they made, I would conclude that they have evidence, but perhaps not enough to be absolutely sure of winning a case should Ferrari take the matter further. In those situations it's not uncommon for both sides to reach an agreement on how to resolve the situation without a messy court case. When you do that, both sides have to give a bit more than they would wish to.

[Joshrobins13]

It's funny to see some Ferrari fans blaming the FIA for this mess. I think a lot of them would genuinely prefer the FIA to allow Ferrari to cheat and keep it all a secret.

[pdac]

given several of them have been rumoured to be quitting already I think it's impossible not to think this tbh, you're kidding yourself if you think that organisations like Mercedes and Red Bull will stay in a sport if they think it's not being run fairly.

 

Of course Mercedes might consider quitting. But the others? They all know where their bread is buttered. None of them are going to bite the hand that feeds them. I think it IS impossible to think that and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

[pdac]

It's funny to see some Ferrari fans blaming the FIA for this mess. I think a lot of them would genuinely prefer the FIA to allow Ferrari to cheat and keep it all a secret.

 

As someone who very much dislikes the Ferrari team, I have to say that I think there seems to be a lot of non-Ferrari fans here that are blaming the FIA for the mess too. Some would genuinely want the FIA to throw Ferrari out of F1 completely, I think.