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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#1 xtremeclock

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:15

https://www.pitpass....rari-power-unit

Wolff admits doubt on legality of Ferrari power unit

 
 
"If someone, and I'm not saying somebody is, because the fact is I don't know, we are not in anybody's engine, we are not in anybody's bodywork, but if someone were prepared to risk his reputation then there is very little possibility to police that," said the Austrian.
 
"You need to rely on the integrity of people and organisations, and we do that," he insisted, according to ESPN. "At the end of the day with all the scepticism and paranoia that has always existed in Formula One we rely on the integrity of the FIA, we rely on the integrity of our competitors, because that's the only way we can go racing on a Sunday.
 
"What we've seen is that on racetracks that should have suited us - Silverstone and Hockenheim - they had a car that was very good on the chassis side and a power unit that was the benchmark in the field," he continued. "The only reaction we can have to that is not to say 'What are they doing?' but the reaction should be 'What can we do in order to accelerate our own development program?'.
 
"My mind-set is really that everybody is respecting the integrity (of the regulations) because that is the only way we can go racing. If you doubt that, then the whole sport would have a problem, and I don't."
 

 

 

 

The double negatives...

I don't think he is the right one to talk about or question the integrity of the FIA and indirectly, Ferrari, when they got way for four years with their oil burning tricks.

It's quite pathetic if you ask me...Ferrari has found something, legal according to the FIA and they simply can't accept it.


Edited by SophieB, 25 July 2018 - 06:32.


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#2 Yoshi

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:20

First time since 4 years that someone has a better enginge than Mercedes. They are not used to it.
Not the first witch hunt on Ferrari this season and the FIA said its legal once more. They dont know what Ferrari is doing, thats why they are complaining to find out more details.

Well done from the guys in Maranello. :up:

Edited by Yoshi, 24 July 2018 - 21:24.


#3 Dr. Austin

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:21

They are faster, so they must be cheating more than we are.


Edited by Dr. Austin, 24 July 2018 - 21:21.


#4 Signori

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:22

 

https://www.pitpass....rari-power-unit

Wolff admits doubt on legality of Ferrari power unit

 
Having claimed that Ferrari had a five-tenths advantage over Mercedes on the straights at Hockenheim, Toto Wolff has come close to suggesting that the recent improvement from the Italian team and its customer teams is due to exploiting an area of the regulations that the FIA is unable to police.
 
Speaking at an AMG media event in Germany, the Austrian, doing his best not to make a direct accusation, made it clear that he has severe doubts about the legality of his rival's engine.
 
"If someone, and I'm not saying somebody is, because the fact is I don't know, we are not in anybody's engine, we are not in anybody's bodywork, but if someone were prepared to risk his reputation then there is very little possibility to police that," said the Austrian.
 
"You need to rely on the integrity of people and organisations, and we do that," he insisted, according to ESPN. "At the end of the day with all the scepticism and paranoia that has always existed in Formula One we rely on the integrity of the FIA, we rely on the integrity of our competitors, because that's the only way we can go racing on a Sunday.
 
"What we've seen is that on racetracks that should have suited us - Silverstone and Hockenheim - they had a car that was very good on the chassis side and a power unit that was the benchmark in the field," he continued. "The only reaction we can have to that is not to say 'What are they doing?' but the reaction should be 'What can we do in order to accelerate our own development program?'.
 
"My mind-set is really that everybody is respecting the integrity (of the regulations) because that is the only way we can go racing. If you doubt that, then the whole sport would have a problem, and I don't."
 

 

Though the FIA has given the Ferrari unit the all-clear, there remains concern among the rival manufacturers that the Italian company has somehow found a performance gain related to the hybrid system, the increase in performance for both the works and customer teams following the introduction of an upgraded MGU-Ks and energy store.

 

 

The double negatives...

I don't think he is the right one to talk about or question the integrity of the FIA and indirectly, Ferrari, when they got way for four years with their oil burning tricks.

It's quite pathetic if you ask me...Ferrari has found something, legal according to the FIA and they simply can't accept it.

 

 

I thought he said they will have to trust and was not questioning



#5 Fastcake

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:23

It's all part of the game, and always will be.



#6 Marklar

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:26

Competitor X questions Competitor Y's as legal deemed system. Le shock, totally never seen that before, like...ah yeah, from Competitor Y towards Competitor X, you know /s

when they got way for four years with their oil burning tricks.

I like how you seem enraged about them daring to question stuff like everyone does. But on the same time you seem sure that Mercedes played "tricks" for 4 years. Beautiful.

#7 Tiakumosan

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:28

4 years with the best engine and nobody complains. Now that it seems they are behind, someone must be cheating? Come on Toto, Renault and Honda must think Ferrari and Mercedes are cheating too?

#8 Marklar

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:31

4 years with the best engine and nobody complains.

giphy.gif

#9 beachdrifter

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:31

He's saying they don't know, and acknowledging there has always been skepticism and paranoia, but the fact of the matter is I've never seen anything like that jump - in-season - that we've just seen from Ferrari from one race to the next, without even upgrading all of the "hardware". 

 

That doesn't mean it must be illegal. But it means it's (to Wolff's and my knowledge) unprecedented in modern F1, and there's no explanation at this point. Of course that makes Wolff doubt, and me as well. Not so much about legality, not because it's Ferrari, but because of the magnitude of the jump that might turn a so far exciting, unpredictable and close championship into a one-sided  snoozefest the rest of the way. 

 

That's the only thing I'm really concerned about. I loved what we had so far, but this might very well be the end. I'm no longer even looking forward to the next race. And that's a first (well, not counting Monaco that doesn't qualify as a "race" in my book since it lacks almost all of the essentials of a F1 race, including fast driving). 


Edited by beachdrifter, 24 July 2018 - 21:38.


#10 Massa_f1

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:31

Confirms to me that Merc arent going to let this drop for the rest of the season. Of course if they win the championships they will say no more about it. If they loose it's now becoming obvious they are going to say they have not been beaten fairly.



#11 Signori

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:34

Will be so nice to re-read this thread if Mercedes & Lewis take both the WCC & WDC

 

this is really popcorn stuff



#12 Tiakumosan

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:38

4 years with the best engine and nobody complains.

giphy.gif

Nobody accused them of cheating. Sorry, bad wording from me.

#13 Spillage

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:43

Who knows, maybe Mercedes have been cheating for years and know that nobody can beat them legally :p

In all seriousness, the FIA are apparently satisfied with what Ferrari are doing. What with this and Silverstone I don't think Mercedes are taking losing their competitive edge so well.

#14 JonnyJ

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:44

XC, come on now, you know enough about F1 to know that this happens all the time. Team A makes a sudden big step, Team B questions said step. If Merc had done similar you can be sure Ferrari would be all over it and rightly so, just like they went after Merc/RB's FRIC suspension and Renault went after the oil burning thing (that both Ferrari and Merc were doing)

 

If its true Ferrari have made a 38hp jump in one big leap then Merc would be nuts not to question it. Imagine if they didnt then 3 years later it came out that it was dodgy? They'd look like idiots. And if its all good, then what are you worried about? Merc are just wasting their time, even better news for Ferrari  :up:

 

I wouldnt get annoyed by it, this is EXACTLY what you want as a team. Start to worry when no one gives a **** about what you're doing with your car, because you're dog slow.


Edited by JonnyJ, 24 July 2018 - 21:47.


#15 SonGoku

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:46

Well Wolff maybe your team should introduce something special, your last engine updates are not impressive and now Ferrari is faster.


Edited by SonGoku, 24 July 2018 - 21:47.


#16 FLB

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:48

It's all part of the game, and always will be.

Yup.

 

 

Water is wet.

Cats says 'Meow'.

F1 is political.

 

 

Etc.



#17 Signori

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:48

Well Wolff maybe your team should introduce something special, your last engine updates are not impressive and now Ferrari is faster.

 

They brought their latest super update to the German GP and won if I remember correctly :)



#18 SonGoku

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:53

They brought their latest super update to the German GP and won if I remember correctly :)

 

Yeah rain and a crash, that will work every race.



#19 xtremeclock

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:54

XC, come on now, you know enough about F1 to know that this happens all the time. Team A makes a sudden big step, Team B questions said step. If Merc had done similar you can be sure Ferrari would be all over it and rightly so, just like they went after Merc/RB's FRIC suspension.

 

If its true Ferrari have made a 38hp jump in one big leap then Merc would be nuts not to question it. Imagine if they didnt then 3 years later it came out that it was dodgy? They'd look like idiots. And if its all good, then what are you worried about? Merc are just wasting their time, even better news for Ferrari  :up:

 

I wouldnt get annoyed by it, this is EXACTLY what you want as a team. Start to worry when no one gives a **** about what you're doing with your car, because you're dog slow.

 

The thing is, publicly at least, Ferrari never questioned the legality of the Mercedes Power Unit, they had some clever oil burning tricks, they got away with it for four years outsmarting every technical directive, bravo....classic F1 and i love it.

 

But...do you remember a statement from Arrivabene or Mattiacci talking about the integrity of the FIA/Mercedes or explaining how they being forced to trust them...?

 

You can expect it from C.Horner/Marko, but not from Mercedes.



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#20 Signori

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:56

Yeah rain and a crash, that will work every race.

 

nahh....the GOAT44 update works in all weather conditions, sometimes the update is so lethal some have to literally try and ram him off the road or bin their car in annoyance :)



#21 Signori

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 21:58

The thing is, publicly at least, Ferrari never questioned the legality of the Mercedes Power Unit, they had some clever oil burning tricks, they got away with it for four years outsmarting every technical directive, bravo....classic F1 and i love it.

 

But...do you remember a statement from Arrivabene or Mattiacci talking about the integrity of the FIA/Mercedes or explaining how they being forced to trust them...?

 

You can expect it from C.Horner/Marko, but not from Mercedes.

 

They might not have questioned the Power unit but did they not question or seek clarification on the suspension or something ?



#22 JonnyJ

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 22:05

The thing is, publicly at least, Ferrari never questioned the legality of the Mercedes Power Unit, they had some clever oil burning tricks, they got away with it for four years outsmarting every technical directive, bravo....classic F1 and i love it.

 

But...do you remember a statement from Arrivabene or Mattiacci talking about the integrity of the FIA/Mercedes or explaining how they being forced to trust them...?

 

You can expect it from C.Horner/Marko, but not from Mercedes.

 

That probably just shows how under pressure they are. I think they are properly concerned that this might only not lose them this season but next ones too given lead time on this could be massive and they dont even know whats happening yet!

 

No room for virtuosity in F1, its brutal. Agree that its not classy but F1 very rarely is.

 

I'd still take it as a compliment, if Ferrari were flapping about in the media like Merc now I'd be having a right chuckle. 

 

One thing this does show is how ridiculously complicated these engines can be. Its not a good look for F1 when years after Merc were burning oil, its banned but, well, all results stand because we were too slow to find out and this could be a similar situation. Then again, if you decide to get into F1 you just have to accept integrity isnt part of the game!



#23 Whiz

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 22:21

A message to Toto:

 

Since 2014 I've been waiting for someone to swipe off your smeary diabolical grin that the broadcasters always show after a pole or race win of Merc. Finally the time has come. The spaghettis (in Lauda's words) have finally developed a better PU. 

 

The first thing you do: Sounding like a whiny Horner. Stfu and don't question the integrity of a competitor. Sore loser.


Edited by Whiz, 24 July 2018 - 22:21.


#24 dgsg

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 22:21

So did Mercedes catch WLB syndrome from Lewis? :rotfl:



#25 Jordan44

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 22:24

A message to Toto:

Since 2014 I've been waiting for someone to swipe off your smeary diabolical grin that the broadcasters always show after a pole or race win of Merc. Finally the time has come. The spaghettis (in Lauda's words) have finally developed a better PU.

The first thing you do: Sounding like a whiny Horner. Stfu and don't question the integrity of a competitor. Sore loser.


How will Toto be able to sleep at night after this devestating remark?

#26 Whiz

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 22:27

How will Toto be able to sleep at night after this devestating remark?

 

I will be sleeping well.

 

Maybe Ferrari found something during the FIA Investigation. That would be the story of the year :rotfl:



#27 P123

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 22:36

Welcome to F1. :)

But errr, where does Mercedes question the legality of the Ferrari in that article? Or is this yet more over-reaction to nothing at all...

#28 Signori

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 22:59

Welcome to F1. :)

But errr, where does Mercedes question the legality of the Ferrari in that article? Or is this yet more over-reaction to nothing at all...

 

Same question I asked that for some reason has refused to be answered



#29 baddog

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 00:41

Welcome to F1. :)

But errr, where does Mercedes question the legality of the Ferrari in that article? Or is this yet more over-reaction to nothing at all...

 

If I spend 10 lines saying 'If you were cheating we wouldnt be able to tell, so I have no way of knowing if you are cheating, but of course I have to act like I trust you or it would be anarchy' that means, to the world, 'I think you are cheating'.



#30 Dratini

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 00:52

Of course if they win the championships they will say no more about it.

I struggle to imagine a world where Lewis wouldn't bring it up, should he win the title this year.

#31 Dratini

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 00:56

XC, come on now, you know enough about F1 to know that this happens all the time. Team A makes a sudden big step, Team B questions said step. If Merc had done similar you can be sure Ferrari would be all over it and rightly so, just like they went after Merc/RB's FRIC suspension and Renault went after the oil burning thing (that both Ferrari and Merc were doing)

If its true Ferrari have made a 38hp jump in one big leap then Merc would be nuts not to question it. Imagine if they didnt then 3 years later it came out that it was dodgy? They'd look like idiots. And if its all good, then what are you worried about? Merc are just wasting their time, even better news for Ferrari :up:

I wouldnt get annoyed by it, this is EXACTLY what you want as a team. Start to worry when no one gives a **** about what you're doing with your car, because you're dog slow.

I'm not sold on the idea that Merc would look like idiots if they didn't question it. If anything, Toto's method of questioning it currently is making him look like an idiot (idiot is a strong word but I'm just trying to be consistent with the phrasing).

Also.. Mercedes is dog slow now?

#32 lbennie

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:14

Sounds like the interviewer is the one trying to stir up trouble.

 

Those quotes look pretty harmless TBH. and the first part of Toto's reply looks like he's answering a very direct/loaded question.

 

Journos like to publish answers without the question that sparked them. Much easier rip out context.


Edited by lbennie, 25 July 2018 - 01:15.


#33 eff1fan

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:27

A message to Toto:

 

Since 2014 I've been waiting for someone to swipe off your smeary diabolical grin that the broadcasters always show after a pole or race win of Merc. Finally the time has come. The spaghettis (in Lauda's words) have finally developed a better PU. 

 

The first thing you do: Sounding like a whiny Horner. Stfu and don't question the integrity of a competitor. Sore loser.

 

With the built-in advantage they have had for four years, and with the preferential treatment they receive from Todt & Co., there is still nothing honorable about the Mercedes team.



#34 4444

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:28

They are faster, so they must be cheating more than we are.

 

Remember the berylliumgate?

 

https://www.crash.ne...rrari-hypocrisy



#35 MaxisOne

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:29

giphy.gif

 

Marklar I seriously cannot believe he posted that  "No one complained" comment ... Oh my GOD !!!  

 

I have no more words. Completely speechless.  :drunk:  :drunk:



#36 lbennie

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:35

Horner never complained/accused merc/ferrair of anything, he moaned about renault being crap.

 

or am I missing something?



#37 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:45

It’s time for FIA to end this farce and bring in open scrutineering. It’ll be very good for the fans and will undoubtedly lower costs. Fans will actually be able to discuss the cars while having real details and numbers.

#38 MaxisOne

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:47

Horner never complained/accused merc/ferrair of anything, he moaned about renault being crap.

 

or am I missing something?

 

Just one example .. Horner wanted Q Modes removed or altered because of its use in Q3 was unfair.  That was as recent as Aus 2018

then there was

 

http://en.espn.co.uk...ory/194721.html

and many more .. 

 

Just search "Horner complains about Mercedes engine" and articles pop up for your perusal.

 

Not to mention the various other teams seeking clarifications over the years. 



#39 lbennie

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:55

He isn't responsible for how his power unit stacks up to the competition, toto is.



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#40 Wuzak

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 01:56

Just one example .. Horner wanted Q Modes removed or altered because of its use in Q3 was unfair.  That was as recent as Aus 2018

then there was

 

http://en.espn.co.uk...ory/194721.html

and many more .. 

 

Just search "Horner complains about Mercedes engine" and articles pop up for your perusal.

 

Not to mention the various other teams seeking clarifications over the years. 

 

But he wasn't accusing them of cheating. Just that they were better than his power unit supplier, and therefore must be hobbled.



#41 quaint

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 03:03

Will be so nice to re-read this thread if Mercedes & Lewis take both the WCC & WDC

 

this is really popcorn stuff

 

Will be so nice to read your thoughts if Mercedes wins neither of those. (They haven't needed Hamilton for a single one of their championships.)



#42 MaxisOne

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 03:52

But he wasn't accusing them of cheating. Just that they were better than his power unit supplier, and therefore must be hobbled.

 

Marklar and i were specifically responding to the "No one complained" part of a posters comments.. and thats complaining and whinging in general.. not specifically cheating.



#43 Tsarwash

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:24

A message to Toto:

 

Since 2014 I've been waiting for someone to swipe off your smeary diabolical grin that the broadcasters always show after a pole or race win of Merc. Finally the time has come. The spaghettis (in Lauda's words) have finally developed a better PU. 

 

The first thing you do: Sounding like a whiny Horner. Stfu and don't question the integrity of a competitor. Sore loser.

That's a pretty sour post, isn't it ? 



#44 lbennie

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:32

Marklar and i were specifically responding to the "No one complained" part of a posters comments.. and thats complaining and whinging in general.. not specifically cheating.

 

The guy clearly meant in the context of cheating accusations, as he pointed out further down.

 

How would toto complain & whinge if he's not talking about cheating? he is responsible for his engines performance.



#45 Bartonz20let

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 04:48

Sounds like the interviewer is the one trying to stir up trouble.

Those quotes look pretty harmless TBH. and the first part of Toto's reply looks like he's answering a very direct/loaded question.

Journos like to publish answers without the question that sparked them. Much easier rip out context.


Classic rag journalism and sports fans can't help take the bait because of the tribalism in supporting a team.

Nothing in the quotes for me but being on the silver side of the argument, I probably just can't see it.

#46 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 05:51

I’ve been saying this for months. In the time I have been watching F1 I have never seen a manufacturer make such a big jump in engine performance.
Engines are ultimately limited by the laws of thermodynamics. The only gains you can make at this level are through efficiency. If Ferrari are finding 30-50 bhp ( to guess a number) or able to deploy significantly more energy over a lap in-season, it’s definitely because of some illegal or very grey trickery. I’m 100% certain of it.

#47 Pimpwerx

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 06:03

It's impressive, and probably circumvents the rules, but THIS is the game. You bend or break what you can, while remaining undetected. Kudos to Ferrari. The other teams need to do better, including the one I support.

#48 Signori

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 06:36

Will be so nice to read your thoughts if Mercedes wins neither of those. (They haven't needed Hamilton for a single one of their championships.)

Well I certainly know your thoughts :)

In your haste to spew you totally forgot about 2017 championship

Without Lewis Vettel would have won the WDC :)

Edited by Signori, 25 July 2018 - 06:45.


#49 baddog

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 06:54

I’ve been saying this for months. In the time I have been watching F1 I have never seen a manufacturer make such a big jump in engine performance.
Engines are ultimately limited by the laws of thermodynamics. The only gains you can make at this level are through efficiency. If Ferrari are finding 30-50 bhp ( to guess a number) or able to deploy significantly more energy over a lap in-season, it’s definitely because of some illegal or very grey trickery. I’m 100% certain of it.

 

Law does not apply to Mercedes of course, their ability to extract more power than everyone else is presumed in the rarely quoted fourth law of thermodynamics.



#50 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:02

The summary of the interview done in the title is wrong imho. Toto answered as well as he could, not pointing fingers at anyone. He actually said "The only reaction we can have to that is not to say 'What are they doing?' but the reaction should be 'What can we do in order to accelerate our own development program?'."