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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#51 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:34

I think most people will agree that it is strange. Ferrari haven’t made a top class PU since like 2009 and now out of nowhere they find this incredible upgrade? Big enough to topple the finest PU constructor F1 has ever seen.
I think if Mercedes hadn’t had won 4 titles in a row following Red Bull winning 4 in a row, FIA would be putting in some actual effort into figuring out if Ferrari are actually playing by the book.

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#52 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:45

Merc is praised for dominating for some years because of an incredible engine advantage with no talk of the law of thermodynamics. They are after all the finest PU constructor F1 has ever seen and not some cheaters. One little update from Ferrari then everyone loses their minds with cheating accusations.

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 July 2018 - 07:46.


#53 kernel

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:52

Merc is praised for dominating for some years because of an incredible engine advantage with no talk of the law of thermodynamics. They are after all the finest PU constructor F1 has ever seen and not some cheaters. One little update from Ferrari then everyone loses their minds with cheating accusations.

 

One little update?  :cat:



#54 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:59

One little update?  :cat:

 


To fit the quote. :) But overall it's meaningless if it's big or small. Current Merc engine isn't the ultimate performance achievable under this regulation and anything better than it means it was achieved by cheating the regulations.

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 July 2018 - 08:00.


#55 Eff1

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:12

I’ve got to say big credit to the engine guys in Maranello for this improvement. I never expected them to match let alone surpass the Merc PU under these regulations.

For those saying this performance jump is strange I would argue the 2017 Ferrari PU was already quite a good baseline. It brought them into play last season. Not the benchmark but still decent.

The bigger jump (more impressive) was the Ferrari 2014 PU to 2015 PU. With that they surpassed Renault and managed a few wins vs. a handful of podiums in 2014.

On another note - I was not impressed by Mercedes earlier in the season questioning the legality of Ferrari’s current PU in the media. They should have lodged an official protest if they truly suspected something. In the end the FIA investigated because of the increased media speculation and not an official protest from any team. That was poor form IMO.

#56 P123

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:17

I think a few are being a touch melodramatic, hence this topic. Have Mercedes protested Ferrari? No. So sit back and relax. A team being unhappy with something on a competitor car isn't entirely a new phenomenon either. The topic title is misleading- I propose-'Wolff not unambiguously glorifying Ferrari progress, leading to fan sensitivity, but says Mercedes must work harder anyway'.

#57 EndlessMotion

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:18

Sounds about the usual for F1, not sure what the fuss is about. It's exactly how the F1 game has and will always be played. You come up with something and others either copy or try to see it outlawed. Nothing new here. 

 

Some salty Ferrari fans taking it quite personally and acting as if it's the first time one team has tried to spoil the gains of another. Pot, kettle, black can be said of every team in the pit lane. Spare us the outrage.

 

Whatever the wizardry Ferrari has conjured up this season, they've managed to run it for half a season without being pulled up by the FIA or another team knowing exactly what's going on. I think they've done a brilliant job to come up with it and run it for so long without others being able to copy or outlaw it. But it's only a matter of time before it's found out by the rest and copied or banned if it turns out to be a cheeky interpretation that get's shut down. Nothing lasts forever in F1.



#58 MonkeySpin

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:19

I'm yet to see anything that suggests Ferrari do have a better engine.

 

Anything so far (like this mythical 0.5 on the straight) can be explained by down force levels. Simply because how is the Mercedes as fast (or faster) losing so much time on the straights... it would mean they had some super ultra mega chassis to make it back up.

 

And the topic and its title are somewhat unfair to Mercedes. Renault have also lodged a complaint about the Ferrari engine.



#59 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:36

Some of You guys really undervalue Mercedes’ know-how.

There is a difference between knowing that you are lacking in some areas and knowing what is psychically possible using available technology. Power unit development is very different to chassis design. 



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#60 HermannH

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:40

I'm yet to see anything that suggests Ferrari do have a better engine.

 

Anything so far (like this mythical 0.5 on the straight) can be explained by down force levels. Simply because how is the Mercedes as fast (or faster) losing so much time on the straights... it would mean they had some super ultra mega chassis to make it back up.

 

And the topic and its title are somewhat unfair to Mercedes. Renault have also lodged a complaint about the Ferrari engine.

This had nothing to do with downforce levels at Hockhenheim.

Whether it is cheating or not, I have zero idea. But the fact is that Ferrari is on a different planet on straight line speed (acceleration from 150kph). If it is legal, well done to their engineers - they have designed a brilliant car and a brilliant PU. 



#61 MonkeySpin

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:42

But from 150 kph is where we would start to see downforce levels take effect on acceleration?

 

And if Ferrari were 0.5 seconds faster down the main straight, please explain how Mercedes then made that time back up, unless they were MUCH faster in the corners?



#62 Lennat

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:43

First time in at least ten years that Mercedes don't have the best engine. Must be hard for them. :lol:

 

I am cheering for Hamilton (at least more than Vettel), so just get that free energy trick thing sorted please!



#63 sopa

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:43

I’ve got to say big credit to the engine guys in Maranello for this improvement. I never expected them to match let alone surpass the Merc PU under these regulations.

For those saying this performance jump is strange I would argue the 2017 Ferrari PU was already quite a good baseline. It brought them into play last season. Not the benchmark but still decent.

The bigger jump (more impressive) was the Ferrari 2014 PU to 2015 PU. With that they surpassed Renault and managed a few wins vs. a handful of podiums in 2014.

 

Yup.

 

Ferrari's PU was rubbish only in 2014, the progress into 2015 was massive despite the token regulations in place. Last year they were already in similar ballpark with Mercedes.

 

Ferrari's competitiveness doesn't come out of nowhere, it's been a long linear process. It's not like Honda suddenly designed the best PU on the grid after spending years in doldrums.

 

It's a bit like if people were shocked about Ferrari's domination in 2002. How come? This also didn't come out of nowhere, they had been slowly improving to reach that level for many years.

 

Now compare that to Mercedes - their jump to dominate the field in 2014 indeed did happen almost out of nowhere with massive gains, thanks to new regulations.



#64 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:44

Some of You guys really undervalue Mercedes’ know-how.
There is a difference between knowing that you are lacking in some areas and knowing what is psychically possible using available technology. Power unit development is very different to chassis design.

So Ferrari are actually breaking the laws of physics? :)

The talk is about the regulations. And even with their extensive know how it's not a given that they still have the best implementation.

I don't believe the 0.5 advantage anyway and it being due to the PU.

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 July 2018 - 09:11.


#65 HP

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 08:47

Well I certainly know your thoughts :)

In your haste to spew you totally forgot about 2017 championship

Without Lewis Vettel would have won the WDC :)

No. Towards the end of the 2nd part of the season Mercedes improved their car significantly. Hamilton won Spa and four other races, came 2nd in an another. So 3 races before seasons end in USA, the championship was almost decided and in the next race in Mexcio it was over. And just as the championship was sealed, Bottas started shining with 2 2nd and a win. So the car was better in the 2nd half. Had Vettel been closer due to not DNF twice, Hamilton would have pushed more the last 3 races. The Merc was the better car. And since the difference between Ham and Vet last year was 46 points, and in the last race, Bottas won ahead of Hamilton in the last race, It should be without a doubt that BOT and HAM would have swapped places to ensure HAM won the WDC. with an additional 7 points. 7 and 46 makes 53 points. Vettel lost at worst 50 points. So no, there was no way Lewis would have lost the championship. Put it in other numbers. in the 2nd half of the championship, after some Merc updates. HAM won 5 races, VET and VET won 2 each and one went to BOT. Also bottas ended only 12 points behind Vettel. Had Hamilton been behind last season, Merc could easily have Bottas take a few more points at the expense of Hamilton to win the title. This year should have made it clear that Mercedes isn't above team orders, when reasonable.

 

And based on the 2nd half of last year, at the start of this season, the pundits thought Red Bull would overtake Ferrari and fight with Merc for the title. Hamilton needs all help he can get if he is to win the championship this year. Mercedes lost their advantage so far.



#66 HP

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:08

I think most people will agree that it is strange. Ferrari haven’t made a top class PU since like 2009 and now out of nowhere they find this incredible upgrade? Big enough to topple the finest PU constructor F1 has ever seen.
I think if Mercedes hadn’t had won 4 titles in a row following Red Bull winning 4 in a row, FIA would be putting in some actual effort into figuring out if Ferrari are actually playing by the book.

No it's not strange. Sometimes technology makes quantum leaps, because somebody was thinking different.  If you look at established ways of charging the battery, then the leap of Ferrari is suspicious. It's always a given that a team leading for years get stuck in their ways of success, trying to maximize the current way of doing things and miss something. The dangers of that can be seen in the story of Nokia and Blackberry. They sat on their proven concept, and then got a big surprise. Mercedes isn't immune from that. Especially, since F1 is a real, real tiny specialized market. They can't even go and buy a Ferrari to find out how they are doing things.

 

And if you look back in the past at the Mercedes engines blowing up, almost as worse as Honda, we can see that no manufacturer is immune from missing out at times. No matter what team was ahead, in F1 it's always that the best team did a better job than the rest. And only people not understanding how advances in technology come in phases smell a conspiracy.

 

EDIT:

Besides if you inform yourself what Marchionne did for FIAT,Chrysler and Ferrari, how he improved the company, it's easy to understand why Ferrari found it's foot again in building the best engines.


Edited by HP, 25 July 2018 - 09:10.


#67 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:18

So Ferrari are actually breaking the laws of physics? :)

The talk is about the regulations. And even with they extensive know how it's not a given that they still have the best implementation.

I don't believe the 0.5 advantage anyway and it being due to the PU.

 

Don’t try to be a smartass.

The problem is that FIA does not possess enough knowledge to supervise these very complex F1 power units. So Merc is suspicious. But eventually we will know more. There is limit to how long teams can keep their secrets.  



#68 AlexPrime

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:22

Now Merc are just being nasty. I miss Haug.



#69 CoolBreeze

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:33

What a sore loser...hahaha...wait till end of the season. Let's see who cried wolf. 



#70 Fonzey

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:42

How is that quote being misinterpreted so much? The clue is in the very first line:

 

"If someone, and I'm not saying somebody is"

 

Besides, even if SF are "cheating" - that's the game, you find a questionable advantage and then you exploit it for as long as you can before it gets found/banned. Sticking it in the wall, or banging into other competitors is not a great way to maximise your advantage whilst you have it though.



#71 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:45

Don’t try to be a smartass.

The problem is that FIA does not possess enough knowledge to supervise these very complex F1 power units. So Merc is suspicious. But eventually we will know more. There is limit to how long teams can keep their secrets.  

 


If FIA does not possess enough knowledge to supervise these very complex F1 power units it's a good thing we didn't have a team dominating with a huge engine advantage in the last 4 years. Wait...

#72 P123

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:50

If FIA does not possess enough knowledge to supervise these very complex F1 power units it's a good thing we didn't have a team dominating with a huge engine advantage in the last 4 years. Wait...


The FIA rely to an extent on self-policing. Hence protests, request for clarifications, etc. The purpose of this topic is still a mystery, unless the originator posted the wrong article by mistake and there has been an actual protest by Mercedes.

#73 EndlessMotion

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:10

I'm yet to see anything that suggests Ferrari do have a better engine.

 

Anything so far (like this mythical 0.5 on the straight) can be explained by down force levels. Simply because how is the Mercedes as fast (or faster) losing so much time on the straights... it would mean they had some super ultra mega chassis to make it back up.

 

And the topic and its title are somewhat unfair to Mercedes. Renault have also lodged a complaint about the Ferrari engine.

 

Of course drag and downforce levels will likely be included in any gains Ferrari have over Mercedes down the straights. But it's specifically coming out of the corners and onto the straights, rather than a continuous gain throughout the length of the straight that has people talking. Not just Toto but F1 journalists and experts. The data they're looking at is showing them there's a unique serge of acceleration as they exit a corner and enter a straight that isn't due to downforce levels or just the ICE. 

 

It's not just nasty Mr Wolff bring a meanie or a sore loser. The effects are there to see, and how it's being done whilst isn't exactly known by Ferrari's rivals, they have probably more of an idea of what's going on than they're letting on when talking to the media. The FIA bods that put teams solutions to the test aren't exactly the rocket scientists that the teams engineers and designers are. Sometimes they have to be pointed exactly where and how to look by the other teams before they find something that doesn't comply with the regulations, or at least can be interpreted as not complying.

 

Again, I don't think Ferrari should be criticised or called cheaters, far from it. This is exactly what F1 is all about, trying to steal a march on your rivals by interpreting the regulations in such a way that you can gain an advantage. Sometimes you hold that advantage for a long time, sometimes it's clocked onto by the other teams and eventually stopped by the FIA. The butt hurt from Ferrari fans is always amusing though, taking it as a personal attack on their beloved scuderia. This is F1 warfare and has always been the case. You protect your own ideas and try to pick apart other teams. 

 

Don't take it so personally or as if poor old Ferrari are being unfairly treated  :cry:



#74 David1976

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:26

Ferrari's Power Unit upgrade has been nothing short of remarkable.  Credit to them for finding a way to coax a large power increase in a short period of time.  I have a feeling Merc wont be able to develop a quick solution.  It bodes very well for Spec 3 doesn't it?

 

It wouldn't surprise me if their current power unit had a particular innovation from the beginning of this season and that it has taken until now to develop the required lubricants to take advantage of it.



#75 Nigol

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:32

Only Ferrari - and not Haas and Sauber - having this extra power surely raises some eye brows.



#76 baddog

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:36

Only Ferrari - and not Haas and Sauber - having this extra power surely raises some eye brows.

 

Yes Haas and Sauber have not suddenly gained... oh wait they have gone to the top of the midfield very quickly.



#77 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:40

Law does not apply to Mercedes of course, their ability to extract more power than everyone else is presumed in the rarely quoted fourth law of thermodynamics.

 

Re-read my post again. What I'm questioning is the JUMP in output, not its absolute level. If Mercedes gained so much from one season to the next or one update to the next I would pose exactly the same question.



#78 Diablobb81

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:47

Re-read my post again. What I'm questioning is the JUMP in output, not its absolute level. If Mercedes gained so much from one season to the next or one update to the next I would pose exactly the same question.


Well you should question the absolute level if you want to make a point.

We've seen big jumps from all engines during the last years.

#79 xtremeclock

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:49

Re-read my post again. What I'm questioning is the JUMP in output, not its absolute level. If Mercedes gained so much from one season to the next or one update to the next I would pose exactly the same question.

 

Really ... ? 

 

How much Mercedes gained from their Spec1 to the so called "Phase 2.1" ?

 

In Canada Vettel with his brand new and fresh Spec2 PU qualified 0.095 ahead of Bottas...

 

In Austria, a shorter track, Vettel qualified 0.334s behind Bottas...i don't remember you asking where or how Mercedes has found so much power with their newest Power Unit.



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#80 Nigol

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:51

Yes Haas and Sauber have not suddenly gained... oh wait they have gone to the top of the midfield very quickly.

 

Sure they have gained, because the PU is really good. But unlike them, Ferrari has a significant amount of extra power on some occasions (qualifying laps, after restarts, ...) since Austria and hence the questioning of legality.



#81 sopa

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:52

At Hockenheim qualifying Vettel was just 0.2s quicker than Bottas and we don't know, how quick Hamilton could have gone.

 

I mean it's not like Ferrari is 1 second per lap quicker than anybody else all of a sudden.

 

In terms of overall competitiveness Ferrari's improvement over 2017 is only marginal. So I question what do those "massive gains" actually mean. Ferrari has found a couple of tenths at most in comparison to Mercedes, and that's it.

 

I find no out-of-this-world shocking progress. Now, if Honda had built the best PU this year, I would question what the hell has happened.


Edited by sopa, 25 July 2018 - 10:53.


#82 baddog

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:53

Re-read my post again. What I'm questioning is the JUMP in output, not its absolute level. If Mercedes gained so much from one season to the next or one update to the next I would pose exactly the same question.

 

Why? maybe Ferrari figured out what Merc have been doing? maybe they figured out something Merc didnt.



#83 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:53

No it's not strange. Sometimes technology makes quantum leaps, because somebody was thinking different.  If you look at established ways of charging the battery, then the leap of Ferrari is suspicious. It's always a given that a team leading for years get stuck in their ways of success, trying to maximize the current way of doing things and miss something. The dangers of that can be seen in the story of Nokia and Blackberry. They sat on their proven concept, and then got a big surprise. Mercedes isn't immune from that. Especially, since F1 is a real, real tiny specialized market. They can't even go and buy a Ferrari to find out how they are doing things.

 

 

It is not at all like mobile phones! ICEs change chemical energy from gasoline into kinetic energy through combustion. The total chemical energy in the fuel is fixed by the fuel race weight limit and also the fuel flow limit. The only way to get hugely more power from the ICE is by a huge gain in efficiency which I think is impossible given that the current F1 engines are literally the most efficient ICE engines in the world today.

I think what Ferrari are doing is related to the ERS. We know max power from the K is limited and I'm firmly of the view that they haven't made some amazing leap on the ICE. I think they are somehow deploying more energy from the H and/or ES over a lap than Mercedes. The question is, how?



#84 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:54

Really ... ? 

 

How much Mercedes gained from their Spec1 to the so called "Phase 2.1" ?

 

In Canada Vettel with his brand new and fresh Spec2 PU qualified 0.095 ahead of Bottas...

 

In Austria, a shorter track, Vettel qualified 0.334s behind Bottas...i don't remember you asking where or how Mercedes has found so much power with their newest Power Unit.

 

I don't think I have to explain that there are more variables to laptime than just engine power....



#85 xtremeclock

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:56

I don't think I have to explain that there are more variables to laptime than just engine power....

 

When it comes to Mercedes you want to talk about all the possible variables but with Ferrari it's clear they are doing something dodgy.

 

Right.  :up:



#86 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 10:58

At Hockenheim qualifying Vettel was just 0.2s quicker than Bottas and we don't know, how quick Hamilton could have gone.

 

I mean it's not like Ferrari is 1 second per lap quicker than anybody else all of a sudden.

 

In terms of overall competitiveness Ferrari's improvement over 2017 is only marginal. So I question what do those "massive gains" actually mean. Ferrari has found a couple of tenths at most in comparison to Mercedes, and that's it.

 

I find no out-of-this-world shocking progress. Now, if Honda had built the best PU this year, I would question what the hell has happened.

 

I think last year Ferrari had a much better chassis than Merc, especially at the start of the season, with Merc having noticeably better power and high-speed performance. Now it's the opposite.

 

Why? maybe Ferrari figured out what Merc have been doing? maybe they figured out something Merc didnt.

 

Maybe indeed. But what? It is highly unusual for this to happen with engines hence people questioning it. It's a similar situation to the gains Merc were making when they were burning oil, the gains were just too big to ignore.



#87 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:02

One of the unknowns is how much of Mercedes advantage in the first years of the new formula was just down to others doing something wrong.  Maybe they just approached the new problem in a way that was more productive while others went down the blind alley.  It's easier to make quantum leaps by just fixing past mistakes than by finding something new.  That said, Ferrari has never been the most reputable manufacturer in F1, they always pushed the envelope of ethics farther than others, so who knows.



#88 IceSpeed

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:11

It is not at all like mobile phones! ICEs change chemical energy from gasoline into kinetic energy through combustion. The total chemical energy in the fuel is fixed by the fuel race weight limit and also the fuel flow limit. The only way to get hugely more power from the ICE is by a huge gain in efficiency which I think is impossible given that the current F1 engines are literally the most efficient ICE engines in the world today.
I think what Ferrari are doing is related to the ERS. We know max power from the K is limited and I'm firmly of the view that they haven't made some amazing leap on the ICE. I think they are somehow deploying more energy from the H and/or ES over a lap than Mercedes. The question is, how?


I think there is a diagram in another thread that shows the H and the K going through the Control Unit (CU) to get to the ES. This unit I believe stores energy as well that Ferrari could be using for deployment (not a lot but enough to maybe give Ferrari that punch in qualy)

#89 SCUDmissile

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:40

Sorry Toto mate, you had your chance, q whole month with the Ferrari strapped up with all kinds of FIA sensors.

They found nothing wrong and they probably won't entertain your sh*te anymore.

#90 Jon83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:50

Hopefully Ferrari continue to develop their engine to standard that they have this past 12 months.

 

As unpalatable as I find him and his team, I don't see a huge amount wrong with what Wolff is saying on the face of it, even though it is clearly being said to try and add a few more doubts in.



#91 Signori

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:52

No. Towards the end of the 2nd part of the season Mercedes improved their car significantly. Hamilton won Spa and four other races, came 2nd in an another. So 3 races before seasons end in USA, the championship was almost decided and in the next race in Mexcio it was over. And just as the championship was sealed, Bottas started shining with 2 2nd and a win. So the car was better in the 2nd half. Had Vettel been closer due to not DNF twice, Hamilton would have pushed more the last 3 races. The Merc was the better car. And since the difference between Ham and Vet last year was 46 points, and in the last race, Bottas won ahead of Hamilton in the last race, It should be without a doubt that BOT and HAM would have swapped places to ensure HAM won the WDC. with an additional 7 points. 7 and 46 makes 53 points. Vettel lost at worst 50 points. So no, there was no way Lewis would have lost the championship. Put it in other numbers. in the 2nd half of the championship, after some Merc updates. HAM won 5 races, VET and VET won 2 each and one went to BOT. Also bottas ended only 12 points behind Vettel. Had Hamilton been behind last season, Merc could easily have Bottas take a few more points at the expense of Hamilton to win the title. This year should have made it clear that Mercedes isn't above team orders, when reasonable.

And based on the 2nd half of last year, at the start of this season, the pundits thought Red Bull would overtake Ferrari and fight with Merc for the title. Hamilton needs all help he can get if he is to win the championship this year. Mercedes lost their advantage so far.

Not trying to be sarcastic but I couldn't bother reading past the 2nd sentence

But for what it's worth will take your word for it....okay

Hamilton ...Grrr.....Hamilton :)

Edited by Signori, 25 July 2018 - 11:53.


#92 Jon83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:59

I think most people will agree that it is strange. Ferrari haven’t made a top class PU since like 2009 and now out of nowhere they find this incredible upgrade? Big enough to topple the finest PU constructor F1 has ever seen.
I think if Mercedes hadn’t had won 4 titles in a row following Red Bull winning 4 in a row, FIA would be putting in some actual effort into figuring out if Ferrari are actually playing by the book.

 

Their V8 was as good as anything else on the grid.

 

At Spa in 2013, Hamilton couldn't pass Alonso on the Kemmel straight despite a brilliant slipstream and DRS. I'd say it was "top class"

 

It isn't an "incredible upgrade" either. They've been getting better year on year and even last year, Wolff was saying Mercedes didn't really have much of a power advantage.

 

People are looking for something that just isn't there. Ferrari have done a great job.



#93 JHSingo

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 12:14

Heaven forbid someone actually does a better job than you, Toto.  :rolleyes:

 

Mercedes are clearly rattled. It's good to see. 



#94 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 12:32

"If someone, and I'm not saying somebody is, because the fact is I don't know, we are not in anybody's engine, we are not in anybody's bodywork, but if someone were prepared to risk his reputation then there is very little possibility to police that," said the Austrian.

 

More insinuations and obfuscation from the Mercedes clique - what a surprise. What a classy cast of characters ... :up:

 

The fact is, as the FIA has repeatedly said, that all teams need to prove their cars are legal to the FIA. Wolff knows this.

 

Wolff also knows that weeks of Mercedes moaning led to Ferrari being tagged will all sorts of sensors which proved ... that everything was fine.

 

If Wolff's staff can't prove that Ferrari is bamboozling the FIA, I'm sure James Allison will be able to inform him that their own engineers are either incompetent or deliberately helping Ferrari. Since, you know, it definitely happened!

 

Someone should get Wolff a tinfoil hat. Even the cheapest ones come in Mercedes' company colours!  :lol:


Edited by Nonesuch, 25 July 2018 - 12:35.


#95 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 12:39

I find it curious that the 0.5 seconds Ferrari advantage on straights was brought up in Hockenheim.

 

The top speeds to the speed trap were about 15 to 20 km/h higher in 2016 race qualifications vs. the ones in 2018.

 

So clearly there is more drag in this year's cars but I do not quite get the argument of Ferrari PU suddenly being much more powerful than Merc and rather the alleged Ferrari advantage being explained also due to better aero package.



#96 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 13:12

I find it curious that the 0.5 seconds Ferrari advantage on straights was brought up in Hockenheim.

 

By the same Toto Wolff, who apparently has a more than one issue with matching what he thinks are his observations with reality.

 

The qualifying on-board comparison between Mercedes and Ferrari showed none of that supposed half a second advantage.



#97 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 13:15

By the same Toto Wolff, who apparently has a more than one issue with matching what he thinks are his observations with reality.

 

The qualifying on-board comparison between Mercedes and Ferrari showed none of that supposed half a second advantage.

Here is some more: Rivals find GPS data "strange" and are scratching their heads.

 

https://www.motorspo...-gains-1063845/



#98 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 13:16

It isn't an "incredible upgrade" either.

 

The biggest problem in this thread is that 80% of those commenting on the subject don't even know what it is about. Yes, the update is pretty much "incredible", and has no comparable in-season precedent for as long as I've been following F1. That's why other PU manufacturers like Renault and Merc are wondering what's going on. 

 

If Merc all of a sudden brought an additional 50 hp out of the blue in Hungary, the other PU manufacturers would also ask questions. And so would I. Anyone even remotely familiar with the topic would. Instead people go to rather absurd lenghts in an attempt to shoot the messenger of this development.



#99 Nonesuch

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 13:23

Here is some more: Rivals find GPS data "strange" and are scratching their heads.

 

If Renault didn't think better engines are 'strange', you'd have to think they'd already be building similar, that is better, engines. :p



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#100 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 13:25

If Renault didn't think better engines are 'strange', you'd have to think they'd already be building similar, that is better, engines. :p

Brutal.

:p