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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#1001 richardprice

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 23:21

This whole "wont clarify the rules" business is ridiculous - protesting has connotations that teams don't want to make, and given a lot of the posts in this thread and the Renault one you can see why.  Asking for clarification allows teams to decide whether to make the investment before spending the money on something that might last the first free practice session at the next race weekend before being banned - and given the push on cost cutting these days you would think that both Liberty and the FIA would look favourably toward any action which means money isn't spent pointlessly.



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#1002 beachdrifter

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Posted 20 October 2019 - 23:23

However the real point is that if they want to protest Ferrari they should protest Ferrari. 

 

They do not want to protest Ferrari, and will never do that, so your point is moot.



#1003 baddog

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 02:11

They do not want to protest Ferrari, and will never do that, so your point is moot.

 

Then they should shut up, or stick to putting reasonably specific designs to the FIA for genuine 'pre-approval' (subject to scrutineering of the final product as has always been the case) as everyone always has. 

 

If Ferrari are outright cheating then they need to be hit with the appropriate punishments. If they are 'pushing their luck' then they need to be stopped. If no-one can (or will) demonstrate either then copy what they are doing or beat it another way.


Edited by baddog, 21 October 2019 - 02:30.


#1004 baddog

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 02:12

 Asking for clarification allows teams to decide whether to make the investment before spending the money on something that might last the first free practice session at the next race weekend before being banned 

 

Oh couldn't agree more. If they are doing that for that purpose then that's appropriate. Do you think that is what they are doing?



#1005 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 02:35

Yes the FIA may clarify. They certainly did so when Ferrari enquired about the suspension system that Merc and Redbu had around 2017 or was it 2018.

Or was that situation different to now?

 

Probably because you'd see the components exposed through the weekend to give you an idea of what's going on. For what Ferrari is doing with the engine, teams would probably need access to the FIA's sensor data to get a picture of where the energy is coming from. We can't really judge how responsive the FIA is being unless the teams start publicising the requests and responses that they're getting, which they won't under the principal that they don't want to give their concepts away. 

 

However, as someone else said, accusing a rival team of cheating and implicting the ruling body is allowing it to go on anonymously through the media with nothing but a vague idea of what might be going on is unsporting at best. There's a reason there's a confrontation clause in the sixth amendment.



#1006 richardprice

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 04:04

Oh couldn't agree more. If they are doing that for that purpose then that's appropriate. Do you think that is what they are doing?

 

I think theres more camaraderie between the top teams than there is in the mid-field, so yes I think this is what they are doing - theres also the point that under Whiting this was the way it was done, with informal queries and clarifications on interpretations and legality, meaning you didn't have to go to the length of raising a competitors ire by protesting every little thing they did, nor do you have to spend money on something that will be binned before it benefits you.  That approach seems to have changed since Whitings death, and the new approach doesn't seem to be as friendly.



#1007 Wuzak

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 05:20

They had - but obviously Ferrari understood somehow Merc was doing it and copied it.

If Merc/Honda/Renault would understand what Ferrari is doing now, they wouldnt complain and just copy it.

 

One or two Mercedes HPP engineers went to Ferrari between 2014 and 2015 seasons, so that knowledge would have transferred.

 

And James Allison went from Ferrari to Mercedes a year or two later and knew how Ferrari were doing their oil burning, which led to a crackdown on separate oil systems.



#1008 Wuzak

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 05:25

Yes the FIA may clarify. They certainly did so when Ferrari enquired about the suspension system that Merc and Redbu had around 2017 or was it 2018.

Or was that situation different to now?

 

In those cases Ferrari would go to the FIA with a proposed design of their own, based on what hey think their rivals are doing, and ask for clarification that what they are proposing is legal.

 

It seems that Ferrari's rivals have no clue to what is actually going on, so can't do it that way.

 

Also, a couple of the ideas about what Ferrari were doing, which was clearly against the rules, were penalised by the FIA recently - for Mercedes (cooling fuel outside limits) and Renault (using too much energy from ES.



#1009 Requiem84

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 05:26

Yes

The 'request for clarification' is presumably not as silly as the article makes it sound.

'seeking clarification over whether they are clear to pursue similar concepts themselves or if the ideas fall foul of the regulations.' is potentially nonsense, you can not expect a vague concept to be approved. You could have an entire concept disapproved in principle, but even then the definition you were asking for would have to be pretty tight for it to be meaningful. Its like asking for an excessively vague patent on something you haven't designed/built yet.

However the real point is that if they want to protest Ferrari they should protest Ferrari. What is all this 'oh can we do something sort of like this?' nonsense? Do they think the FIA are stupid enough not to know they are just fishing for info?


Leaking oil via the intercooler is vague how??

#1010 Wuzak

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 05:37

I liked the theory of some sort of fuel reservoir (variable line volume) downstream of the FIA flow sensor. Would be brilliantly devious.

 
Fuel reservoirs downstream of the fuel flow sensors is strictly illegal. Even flexible fuel lines, which expand under pressure to store more fuel, have been stopped in previous seasons.
 

Could anyone elaborate on how much room there theoretically is to get more out of the battery? Isn't that well governed? When a Mercedes saves the battery to get a good pull at the start of a straight, how much performance might theoretically still be on the table over a century of devoted development? From my understanding, not a lot. Thanks!


The battery doesn't only send power to the MGUK. The transfer between the battery and the MGUH is unlimited.

 

Powering the turbo with the MGUH lowers the back pressure on the ICE, which leads to more crankshaft power. This is what is done on qualifying laps. 

 

Maybe this is what Ferrari can do exiting corners, but not for as long as they can in qualifying. Get up speeds where drag is the dominant factor quickly, and then have the low drag concept keep the speed advantage with a lower power mode.

 

For this to work Ferrari would have to recover more energy over a lap. This may be because of better energy management strategies, or from slightly more efficient components.



#1011 baddog

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 08:11

Leaking oil via the intercooler is vague how??

 

They are not credibly  asking for a clarification on whether they can do that, as the rules are explicit already. You can not do that. If they are firmly of the belief that Ferrari ARE burning oil this way for power then it is an obvious protest issue. 



#1012 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 09:50

 
Fuel reservoirs downstream of the fuel flow sensors is strictly illegal. Even flexible fuel lines, which expand under pressure to store more fuel, have been stopped in previous seasons.
 


The battery doesn't only send power to the MGUK. The transfer between the battery and the MGUH is unlimited.

 

Powering the turbo with the MGUH lowers the back pressure on the ICE, which leads to more crankshaft power. This is what is done on qualifying laps. 

 

Maybe this is what Ferrari can do exiting corners, but not for as long as they can in qualifying. Get up speeds where drag is the dominant factor quickly, and then have the low drag concept keep the speed advantage with a lower power mode.

 

For this to work Ferrari would have to recover more energy over a lap. This may be because of better energy management strategies, or from slightly more efficient components.

Great reply, thanks.

Might Ferrari then be able to extra more energy their MGU-H for limited bursts? Is there room in the regulations to somehow store potential in the exhaust system which can then be harvested at the most opportune (acceleration starting a long straight) to optimize defending and lap time effect? Perhaps some material that can obsorb and release heat sligly more on cue than some passive pipes?



#1013 pingu666

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:00

i think the ferrari pu still pulls hard all the time, rather than just a short term spike (which it seemingly has too)

thats what the speed/gps traces teams have access to have said in the past.



#1014 CountDooku

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 22:49

Will e finally see a protest of Ferrari’s highly legal engine???
https://www.autospor...-engine-protest

#1015 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 03:11

Will e finally see a protest of Ferrari’s highly legal engine???
https://www.autospor...-engine-protest

 
"It is understood that a protest is only likely to emerge on Sunday if at least one of the Ferraris finishes in a strong position.
If the team does not score a big result then it may be postponed until the next race in Austin next weekend."

 

So where's the protest  :confused:  With Renault at the last one we got it almost immediately.



#1016 SophieB

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 14:52

From Dieter Rencken's Paddock Diary for RaceFans yesterday:

 

Before the race:
 

I speak to an official who has knowledge of the engine’s workings.
They tell me that after the FIA inspected the system with the full co-operation of Ferrari, there were no discernible high pressure points within the system from which fluids could leak. Three distinctly different liquids are used for cooling.
The question of how Ferrari is achieving its prodigious power output therefore remains. It’s a matter their rivals will be anxious to get to the bottom of in order to close the gap before the start of the 2020 F1 season.

 
Then after the race:
 

F1 race director Michael Masi debriefs us, during which he tells me that teams had a 30-minute window to protest Ferrari’s alleged intercooler transgression, and that time has passed.
“Our technical guys look at all matters of legality on all cars regularly and will continue to,” he said. “And as we are all well aware the teams have the ability, if they wish, to protest the matter.” Draw your own conclusions…



#1017 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 15:33

From Dieter Rencken's Paddock Diary for RaceFans yesterday:

 

Before the race:
 

 
Then after the race:
 

Masi saying the teams ran out of time to protest.....lol

tenor.gif?itemid=3491827



#1018 dissident

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 19:48

The other teams have no idea of what is behind the performance otherwise they would have already implemented it. 

 

They are basically sniffing around, in hopes of gaining useful infor from the FIA, but even the FIA probably doesn't know.  :lol:



#1019 Claymore25

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 21:13

The other teams have no idea of what is behind the performance otherwise they would have already implemented it. 

 

They are basically sniffing around, in hopes of gaining useful infor from the FIA, but even the FIA probably doesn't know:lol:

 

That could be what's going on. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:



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#1020 Seanspeed

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Posted 28 October 2019 - 21:55

The other teams have no idea of what is behind the performance otherwise they would have already implemented it. 

 

They are basically sniffing around, in hopes of gaining useful infor from the FIA, but even the FIA probably doesn't know.  :lol:

Hey, knowing what it *isn't* going on is still useful.  Power of deduction and all. 



#1021 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 19:17

Tobi Grüner:

FIA is sending out a new Technical Directive after Red Bull asked for clarification on a possible fuel flow measurement loophole. Looks like this is aimed at the Ferrari power secret.

https://mobile.twitt...707475483430912

Edited by JimmyTheFox, 02 November 2019 - 19:18.


#1022 CL16

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 19:30

Just before qualifying mhmmm....

#1023 Danyy

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 19:31

Tobi Grüner:

FIA is sending out a new Technical Directive after Red Bull asked for clarification on a possible fuel flow measurement loophole. Looks like this is aimed at the Ferrari power secret.

https://mobile.twitt...707475483430912


That’s interesting, let’s see what happens in qualifying..

#1024 Pits

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 19:32

Tobi Grüner:

FIA is sending out a new Technical Directive after Red Bull asked for clarification on a possible fuel flow measurement loophole. Looks like this is aimed at the Ferrari power secret.

https://mobile.twitt...707475483430912

Interesting indeed!

:smoking:



#1025 Marklar

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 19:42

This sounds like shooting in the dark tbh.

Basically because the fuel flow is only measured in intervals Red Bull asked the FIA if it's allowed to use more between the intervals, and they obviously said that it is illegal (lol) and send out a new directive. If Ferrari is now down on power this weekend it would potentially mean that it was that. If not then they at least know that it wasnt that

If I was Ferrari I would turn the engine down this weekend to confuse them even more lol.

Also apparently it's happening now because Red Bull/Mercedes let off Ferrari so far because they needed them to fight for their interests for the 2021 rule changes. Now that they suddenly changed sides Red Bull & Mercedes have no reason anymore to be nice.

Edit: Joe Saward has this more detailed
 

 

 

On Saturday morning in Austin, the FIA issued a technical directive to the F1 teams detailing a system that Red Bull had proposed that might have allowed the team to run more than the allowed amount of fuel flow, based on using electircal noise to disrupt the sample pulses sent from the fuel flow metering units, that make sure the teams do not use too much fuel. The system was, of course, rejected by the FIA as being illegal.

https://www.motorspo..._medium=twitter

Edited by Marklar, 02 November 2019 - 19:54.


#1026 Clatter

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:04

This sounds like shooting in the dark tbh.

Basically because the fuel flow is only measured in intervals Red Bull asked the FIA if it's allowed to use more between the intervals, and they obviously said that it is illegal (lol) and send out a new directive. If Ferrari is now down on power this weekend it would potentially mean that it was that. If not then they at least know that it wasnt that

If I was Ferrari I would turn the engine down this weekend to confuse them even more lol.

Also apparently it's happening now because Red Bull/Mercedes let off Ferrari so far because they needed them to fight for their interests for the 2021 rule changes. Now that they suddenly changed sides Red Bull & Mercedes have no reason anymore to be nice.

Edit: Joe Saward has this more detailed
 

 


Surely that's not a loophole or grey area. It would be out and out cheating.

#1027 doc83

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:09

Surely that's not a loophole or grey area. It would be out and out cheating.

 

Yeah. No way it's that. 



#1028 ARTGP

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:16

This theory about electrical noises seems silly. If this were Ferrari's performance advantage, then they would be able to deploy it at anytime, and not just 1 or 2 laps in qualy. 


Edited by ARTGP, 02 November 2019 - 20:17.


#1029 Hyatt

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:31

I had a similar idea, if you know the sample rate of the measuremensts and its rather low, then you may be able to bypass it ... 



#1030 ferenc_k

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:37

Probably they would cause a problem to some other electric parts (CPUs, controller elements) of the car, it should be a bit difficult to inject some noise on a way where it disrupts only one control element, and it would need a new part, as I do not think it can be used as a kind of byproduct of another control element.  



#1031 ARTGP

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:41

Probably they would cause a problem to some other electric parts (CPUs, controller elements) of the car, it should be a bit difficult to inject some noise on a way where it disrupts only one control element, and it would need a new part, as I do not think it can be used as a kind of byproduct of another control element.  

 

 

Supposedly the electronics on these cars are electromagnetically shielded. There seemed to be some mishaps with the gear shifting at Singapore a few years back due to the power lines (or something else) crossing the track (underground) causing the shift controller and other units to lose it's mind.


Edited by ARTGP, 02 November 2019 - 20:42.


#1032 FLB

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:41

I had a similar idea, if you know the sample rate of the measuremensts and its rather low, then you may be able to bypass it ... 

That's what Dieselgate was. The cars passed the tests… in government-mandated conditions. When they were actually on the road (and not supposed to be measured), the reality was quite different.



#1033 Whatisvalis

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:43

Not buying that - I don't think Ferrari are doing something so crass as out and out cheating / obfuscation.



#1034 derstatic

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:45

I'm by no means an engine expert or anything, but bypassing fuel flow restrictions seems like very blatant cheating. Doubt Ferrari would take that risk. My best very uneducated guess is that the advantage in power has something to do with the ERS and electrical side of the PU. An ICE is just an ICE. They have been around for a while and I fail to see how someone could suddenly gain a massive advantage there with fuel flow restrictions etc in place. Rumours about intercooler oil "leaks" seem to have faded away. Last year there was this talk about the weird whizzing sound from the Ferrari engine on the exit of certain corners and the dual battery thingy. I find it much more likely they are doing something clever there than suddenly making a massive step in the ICE.

 

And is it really just for a few laps in qually? Leclerc drove away from Hamilton in slipstream with DRS at Monza, most of the laps.



#1035 Jazza

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:47

Wasn’t this kind of idea already speculated about years ago? Maybe around Barcelona in 2016?

The theory being the fuel pump was timed to pulse the fuel in between the timing of the sensor reading the flow rate, allowing for more fuel per hour to be used.

I’m sure a similar idea was speculated towards Mercedes and Ferrari in the past. Back when Honda and Renault couldn’t get near their power levels and there were questions on how the others could seemingly get more energy from the fuel than thought possible. I thought that’s what then morphed into oil burning?

#1036 ARTGP

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:48

I'm by no means an engine expert or anything, but bypassing fuel flow restrictions seems like very blatant cheating. Doubt Ferrari would take that risk. My best very uneducated guess is that the advantage in power has something to do with the ERS and electrical side of the PU. An ICE is just an ICE. They have been around for a while and I fail to see how someone could suddenly gain a massive advantage there with fuel flow restrictions etc in place. Rumours about intercooler oil "leaks" seem to have faded away. Last year there was this talk about the weird whizzing sound from the Ferrari engine on the exit of certain corners and the dual battery thingy. I find it much more likely they are doing something clever there than suddenly making a massive step in the ICE.

 

And is it really just for a few laps in qually? Leclerc drove away from Hamilton in slipstream with DRS at Monza, most of the laps.

 

 

All the reports from Horner, Honda, Mercedes claim it's something absurd in qualy, and more level in the races. 

 

Why the Merc's can't closeup w/ DRS and full tow at Monza is more to do with how Charles saves up the ERS, in addition to a smaller power advantage during the races, and Monza cars not carrying much drag to begin with.



#1037 OO7

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:51

Surely that's not a loophole or grey area. It would be out and out cheating.

I'll need to consult the regs, but I'm guessing the 100kg/h fuel flow limit is based on the precision from the fuel flow meter, so if the meter is saying your flow rate is 100kg/h when it's really 105kg/h, that may be the grey area/loophole.


Edited by OO7, 02 November 2019 - 20:56.


#1038 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:54

Tobi Grüner:

FIA is sending out a new Technical Directive after Red Bull asked for clarification on a possible fuel flow measurement loophole. Looks like this is aimed at the Ferrari power secret.

https://mobile.twitt...707475483430912

 

I don't see the point of Red Bull asking for a clarification for THIS. Asking for clarification on a grey area where you suspect a competitor does something that isn't in the spirit of the rules is good way of finding out whether or not that solution is legal but this one is pretty straight forward illegal. The FIA was always going to clarify that this is illegal so I don't really see the point of why Red Bull did this.



#1039 Whatisvalis

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 20:57

I don't see the point of Red Bull asking for a clarification for THIS. Asking for clarification on a grey area where you suspect a competitor does something that isn't in the spirit of the rules is good way of finding out whether or not that solution is legal but this one is pretty straight forward illegal. The FIA was always going to clarify that this is illegal so I don't really see the point of why Red Bull did this.

 

Could be an effort to strengthen FIA tests.



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#1040 Whatisvalis

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 21:19

EDIT: wrong thread


Edited by Whatisvalis, 02 November 2019 - 21:19.


#1041 A3

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 22:14

I don't see the point of Red Bull asking for a clarification for THIS. Asking for clarification on a grey area where you suspect a competitor does something that isn't in the spirit of the rules is good way of finding out whether or not that solution is legal but this one is pretty straight forward illegal. The FIA was always going to clarify that this is illegal so I don't really see the point of why Red Bull did this.

They're telling the FIA where to look.

Apparently one of the thick hybrid electrical cables is routed so that it's very close to the fuel flow sensor.

Edited by A3, 02 November 2019 - 22:18.


#1042 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 02 November 2019 - 23:55

Didn’t catch qualifying - was the usual Ferrari power advantage still there? Was surprised the red cars were not on pole

#1043 Marklar

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 00:44

At this point this is comedy

Hamilton: Ferrari have ‘lost power’ since FIA issued directive on engines

https://www.racefans...tive-on-engine/



#1044 ARTGP

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 01:00

Could just be Ferrari playing 4D chess. After all, if Honda and Merc think they know Ferrari's trick, then they won't be sniffing around for whatever Ferrari is actually doing over the winter. And probably won't bring 40hp next season if they think that can only be achieved illegally.


Edited by ARTGP, 03 November 2019 - 01:03.


#1045 Jordan44

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 01:08

They're telling the FIA where to look.

Apparently one of the thick hybrid electrical cables is routed so that it's very close to the fuel flow sensor.

To produce an effective filter surely you would need a specialist circuit that supplies the right current at all time. The hybrid system would be variable, possibly leading to peaks where they exceed allowed fuel flow readings?

Edited by Jordan44, 03 November 2019 - 01:12.


#1046 femi

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 01:51

I had a similar idea, if you know the sample rate of the measuremensts and its rather low, then you may be able to bypass it ... 

If you know the tolerance of the transducers and it is high, you could take advantage of that as well. I think there are opportunities if one knows the exact characteristics of the transducers.


Edited by femi, 03 November 2019 - 02:02.


#1047 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 04:38

At this point this is comedy

Hamilton: Ferrari have ‘lost power’ since FIA issued directive on engines

https://www.racefans...tive-on-engine/

 

Really? According to Lewis's methodology Merc is using a different engine for bottas and Ferrari and Reb Bull have changed their engines coz...reasons. At this stage it wouldn't surprise me if Ferrari decided to go ****ing with Merc just for the sake of it. The guy isn't under pressure so he's not hitting the high notes...he needs to get over himself instead of looking for lasers on the moon regarding his performance. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last time that Lewis will miss focus when he's ahead. He needs to focus on the 1 variable in his control...himself. Sometimes when tapping it home is all you need to do, it's all you should be focusing on doing.



#1048 zibby43

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 04:53

Marko (via AMuS): "Our top speed deficit to Ferrari was not so bad [in qualifying]. On the long straight, it was three to four tenths. Yesterday we lost twice that. "

AMuS:

"In the GPS comparisons shows that Ferrari wins in Austin on all straights together three and a half tenths to the Mercedes and six tenths to the Red Bull Honda. That's about half of what was measured the previous day. And half of the Ferrari advantage in Suzuka, a circuit similar to the Circuit of the Americas."

 

So, Ferrari loses half of its qualifying straightline speed advantage (according to GPS measurements) after the Technical Directive is issued, and we're to assume this is coincidence? 



#1049 Klauzer

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Posted 03 November 2019 - 06:40

Marko (via AMuS): "Our top speed deficit to Ferrari was not so bad [in qualifying]. On the long straight, it was three to four tenths. Yesterday we lost twice that. "

AMuS:

"In the GPS comparisons shows that Ferrari wins in Austin on all straights together three and a half tenths to the Mercedes and six tenths to the Red Bull Honda. That's about half of what was measured the previous day. And half of the Ferrari advantage in Suzuka, a circuit similar to the Circuit of the Americas."

 

So, Ferrari loses half of its qualifying straightline speed advantage (according to GPS measurements) after the Technical Directive is issued, and we're to assume this is coincidence? 

 

How about the more logical "we need more downforce to get through the fast turns ergo we're slower on the straights"? And no, Suzuka is different because the Austin grand prix has esses & what I'd call "esses lite" after the second long straight. Suzuka has its esses & then a series of slow turns, including a hairpin & a chicane. That requires a different setup. The constant urge to pretend Ferrari is/was breaking the rules sort of comical at this point, certainly the extent of the "I believe I've found proof of wrongdoing" which to any normal people just looks like Ferrari added more downforce after practice.

 

Setups change overnight before quali, in case some have forgotten.  



#1050 Marklar

Marklar
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Posted 03 November 2019 - 07:20

Really? According to Lewis's methodology Merc is using a different engine for bottas and Ferrari and Reb Bull have changed their engines coz...reasons. At this stage it wouldn't surprise me if Ferrari decided to go ****ing with Merc just for the sake of it. The guy isn't under pressure so he's not hitting the high notes...he needs to get over himself instead of looking for lasers on the moon regarding his performance. This isn't the first time and it won't be the last time that Lewis will miss focus when he's ahead. He needs to focus on the 1 variable in his control...himself. Sometimes when tapping it home is all you need to do, it's all you should be focusing on doing.

What are you on about? Because he qualified P5 he shouldnt be answering questions about Ferrari?