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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#1701 KevD

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 22:21

Note: this time this was not prompted by a specific request of a team, but the FIA on their own, after they "faced a barrage of questions from several teams". More TD's are expected on this matter in the future, since teams will likely continue to try to find out over the process of elimination.

Tobi Grüner
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Today FIA sent out another Technical Directive (TD 38/19) about possible engine trickery. It states that any flammable liquid from the cooling systems can not be used for combustion. You know which team this is aimed at.

https://www.auto-mot...ri-motor-trick/

 

But this rumour has been going on for weeks already, so why are they acting just now? Do they want to come clean, with next season just around the corner?  :confused:



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#1702 zibby43

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 22:44

But this rumour has been going on for weeks already, so why are they acting just now? Do they want to come clean, with next season just around the corner?  :confused:

 
It's not just this potential method, the article states that there is going to be an onslaught of TDs in the coming days that rule out all kinds of technical trickery. 
 
"It looks as if the association wanted to clear up the accusation once and for all that one or more teams could have unleashed more power with tricks. A competitor predicts: 'Several TDs will be written in the next few weeks to rule out all possible theories.'"


Edited by zibby43, 13 November 2019 - 22:45.


#1703 zibby43

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 22:46

Full translation of AMuS piece:

Ferrari fire continues

TD 35/19 was followed by TD 38/19 four days before the GP Brazil TD 38/19. This time it is about the fact that no combustible liquid from the charge air cooler, the air collector or the ERS system may get into the combustion chambers.

Ferrari had a hard time in Austin. After Red Bull had asked the FIA for a clarification on flow rate measurement, all eyes were on the red cars. The FIA had declared a manipulation of the measuring sensor to increase the injection quantity illegal. Red Bull had shown that this was technically possible. The request was, of course, against Ferrari.

It was one of many theories that the Ferrari engine could sometimes produce more power than any other engine in the field. As a result, Ferrari was closely monitored by the competition. The poor performance of the red cars in the Austin race served as proof to the teams who thought they had deciphered the Ferrari secret. Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto spoke of "false conclusions" and "disappointing comments".

Obviously, the opponents are not so sure whether Red Bull's advance has already hit the mark. Only nine days after the GP USA, the FIA sent another technical directive on possible tricks on the engine. This time of their own accord. In the past weeks different teams had bombarded the federation with inquiries of most different kind. That's why the FIA now wanted to go here in template.

No oil from cooling systems into the engine

The latest clarification from the FIA technical commissioners was sent on Wednesday before the Brazilian GP under the number TD 38/19. It refers to the suspicion that engine manufacturers could divert flammable liquids from the charge air cooler, the air collector or the ERS system for combustion and thus increase performance.

The FIA is referring to an older Technical Directive (TD 54/18) which banned the burning of oil in another context. This time too, the technical commissioners come to the conclusion that it is not permitted to introduce oil from cooling systems into the combustion chambers.

It looks as if the association wanted to clear up the accusation once and for all that one or more teams could have unleashed more power with tricks. A competitor predicts: "Several TDs will be written in the next few weeks to rule out all possible theories".

Attack on technical trickster

With Ferrari's opponents one obviously believes that one only has to shoot with shot in order to hit something at some point. If you can't figure out the secret, you'd at least have to row back. Which would be like an admission of guilt.

For Ferrari the Brazilian GP will therefore be an important weekend. Nowhere is it better to prove that the suspicions are running nowhere than on a 1.2 kilometre uphill track.

Charles Leclerc, unlike Austin, has no excuses. The two-time winner of the season gets a brand new Spec 3 engine in Brazil. Because it now only has to last two weekends or 1,600 kilometres, Leclerc has the power mode more often available than any other rider in the field.



#1704 HPT

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:08

This is all getting a bit annoying. And Red Bull of all teams making the most noises. Ferrari should have pressed on with RBR’s flexi wings - they did pass the load test but had Ferrari done the same by sending FIA all kinds of examples then perhaps the TDs would have been issued which would have put a stop to them. And what about the suspension adjustment device which was found in their cars that Horner claimed ‘was there but never used’ or something to that effect? That was RBR caught with an illegal device on their cars red handed. And they had the gall to throw this cheating allegations around with their out of control driver going as far as calling Ferrari cheats.

#1705 Counterbalance

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:19

This is all getting a bit annoying. And Red Bull of all teams making the most noises. Ferrari should have pressed on with RBR’s flexi wings - they did pass the load test but had Ferrari done the same by sending FIA all kinds of examples then perhaps the TDs would have been issued which would have put a stop to them. And what about the suspension adjustment device which was found in their cars that Horner claimed ‘was there but never used’ or something to that effect? That was RBR caught with an illegal device on their cars red handed. And they had the gall to throw this cheating allegations around with their out of control driver going as far as calling Ferrari cheats.

Reality doesn't work like that. Even if a team has been caught cheating (pretty much all of them at one time or other), there's nothing to stop them questioning another team's alleged technical infringements.

 

it will be very interesting to see what technical directives are issued over the coming weeks. At least it will give us all something to talk about as the season draws to a close, and the titles are done and dusted.



#1706 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:24

Meh! It’s all part of the game.. Ferrari were largely responsible for the banning of FRIC were they not? Whatever trick they are using they’ve maintained the benefit for a decent amount of time but the loophole will be closed eventually

#1707 Counterbalance

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:40

Meh! It’s all part of the game.. Ferrari were largely responsible for the banning of FRIC were they not? Whatever trick they are using they’ve maintained the benefit for a decent amount of time but the loophole will be closed eventually

 

Yup, totally agree, but it would still be very interesting to find out what's going on.



#1708 ARTGP

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:54

Yup, totally agree, but it would still be very interesting to find out what's going on.

 

 

I don't really see these last two races or 2020 bringing any more clarity.

 

Ferrari don't know what caused Charle's engine to fail. They will probably run conservatively. If they do run conservative, then people will just think the TDs clipped their wings. If the TD did clip the wings, Ferrari will just say they are running conservatively due to Charles failure in Austin.

 

There is absolutely no scenario where Ferrari will admit to cheating (IF that's what they are doing).

 

And then in 2020, they will have a lot more downforce on next years car, so the engine performance will just blend into the cornering performance.

 

There's no good ending to this thread  :rotfl:


Edited by ARTGP, 13 November 2019 - 23:55.


#1709 beachdrifter

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:54

I do not think Ferrari power has been available to the customers. Both Haas and Alfa have their chassis and aero deficits but that does not explain all the difference to Ferrari when accelerating out of the corners to the straight.

 

They also went to great lengths to keep their customer teams from even receiving the latest revision of their engines, never planned to give it to them. Only Kimi eventually got it after crashing (?) iirc.


Edited by beachdrifter, 13 November 2019 - 23:55.


#1710 Hela

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:57

We will all have to wait till Q3 in Brazil. Leclerc has a new engine so no excuses.

So whose having a healthy dose of crow...Redbull or Ferrari

#1711 beachdrifter

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:58

If the TD did clip the wings, Ferrari will just say they are running conservatively due to Charles failure in Austin.

 

The FIA stated that only an official protest would cause them to examine. And since no team will launch an official protest against Ferrari, they are free to run their engines as before. The last thing they'd want to do now is look weak engine-wise.



#1712 Counterbalance

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:59

I don't really see these last two races or 2020 bringing any more clarity.

 

Ferrari don't know what caused Charle's engine to fail. They will probably run conservatively. If they do run conservative, then people will just think the TDs clipped their wings. If the TD did clip the wings, Ferrari will just say they are running conservatively due to Charles failure in Austin.

 

There is absolutely no scenario where Ferrari will admit to cheating (IF that's what they are doing).

 

And then in 2020, they will have a lot more downforce on next years car, so the engine performance will just blend into the cornering performance.

 

There's no good ending to this thread  :rotfl:

 

Totally agree on the emboldened part. As for 2020, who knows?


Edited by Counterbalance, 13 November 2019 - 23:59.


#1713 baddog

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 00:45

It starts to sound like RB (and Merc?) have no idea so are just throwing every idea for an illegal trick their own R&Ds have come up with at the FIA in the hope that ONE of them is being used by Ferrari?



#1714 Wuzak

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 01:32

They can open the wastegates and drive the turbo with the MGUH.

 

During the race they may not be able to use as much energy to drive the MGUK and MGUH.

 

It may be that they can reduce the amount of intercooling for short periods, such as qualifying, to increase efficiency and , therefore, power.

 

Doing this is probably not sustainable over a race distance.



#1715 A3

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 07:17

It starts to sound like RB (and Merc?) have no idea so are just throwing every idea for an illegal trick their own R&Ds have come up with at the FIA in the hope that ONE of them is being used by Ferrari?


Not sure what you mean as the FIA issued the other TD's on their own account after questions from other teams?

Like I said from the beginning, it looks like Red Bull told the FIA (and indirectly other teams) where to look. And it started snowballing from there.

#1716 A3

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 07:19

From Honda:

"Maybe some teams, or some people, are thinking of something to improve performance, and we clarify whether it's OK and they say 'no', then we don't do it.

"Someone doing something like that, when they clearly said no, maybe they stop using that. Then we will have a clean race."

So it seems Honda are also convinced someone is cheating.

https://www.motorspo...errari/4596184/

#1717 baddog

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 07:23

Not sure what you mean as the FIA issued the other TD's on their own account after questions from other teams?

Like I said from the beginning, it looks like Red Bull told the FIA (and indirectly other teams) where to look. And it started snowballing from there.

 

Yeah but it goes from 'its this cable' to 'oh and this and this'. Seems they are closing potential holes rather than addressing something they know someone is using.



#1718 A3

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 07:27

Yeah but it goes from 'its this cable' to 'oh and this and this'. Seems they are closing potential holes rather than addressing something they know someone is using.


That still doesn't make your previous post any clearer to me. Red Bull have asked the FIA for clarification once, so I don't understand you saying "they have no idea and are throwing every idea for an illegal trick their own R&Ds have come up with at the FIA".

The "oh and this and this" part comes from the FIA themselves.

Could very well be mind games from Red Bull as maybe they didn't want Ferrari to know how far they were themselves using the same potential trickery.

Edited by A3, 14 November 2019 - 07:29.


#1719 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 08:28

Personally, I think Ferrari have been up to something here, but it will be removed and they will maintain most of their advantage. They’ve clearly been pushing the envelope of engine development and will remain ahead

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#1720 Clatter

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 09:03

I don't really get this latest TD. Surely adding anything to the fuel is strictly forbidden by the rules anyway. Seems to me that these latest clarifications are not actually closing loopholes but just reiterating something that is already covered.

#1721 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 09:38

Does anyone know anything about modern day F1 alternators? With so many systems in the car, I could imagine it would take quite a bit from the driveshaft output.
Running on the non ERS battery for a few seconds rather than on the alternator for a few seconds may well be worth it. An alternator that that can handle peak loads two times over doesn't need to be taking power when the car is accelerating hardest and loses most time for it. Of course the battery needs to take up the slack. Luckily, cars have a minimum weight so a larger battery needs not reduce performance. Ideally an alternator would engage only when the car is braking or on low throttle.



#1722 statman

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 11:13

Does anyone know anything about modern day F1 alternators? With so many systems in the car, I could imagine it would take quite a bit from the driveshaft output.
Running on the non ERS battery for a few seconds rather than on the alternator for a few seconds may well be worth it. An alternator that that can handle peak loads two times over doesn't need to be taking power when the car is accelerating hardest and loses most time for it. Of course the battery needs to take up the slack. Luckily, cars have a minimum weight so a larger battery needs not reduce performance. Ideally an alternator would engage only when the car is braking or on low throttle.

 

according to F1Technical:

 

There is no alternator. The ancillaries are supplied by the ES and/or the MGU-H/MGU-K (which also supply the ES).

This is also an answer to @Platinum Zealot’s query about whether the MGU-K is the alternator substitute.



#1723 ferrarista

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 11:26

I don't really get this latest TD. Surely adding anything to the fuel is strictly forbidden by the rules anyway. Seems to me that these latest clarifications are not actually closing loopholes but just reiterating something that is already covered.

like we know 2+2=4?

Well FIA confirms with the recent directives that 2+2=4 just in case those Italian idiots think it’s 3 or 5 😁

#1724 Jvr

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 11:45

Yeah, so where does the extra power come from then, fuel flow limit being the same and strict parc fermee rules in place?

Since it is about one hot lap, the teams can run the PU in an unsustainable mode from energy budget point of view. This means that on the next lap e.g. the battery is completely empty and in the race the car would be a sitting duck to competition next lap due to missing electrical energy boost from the Battery to MGU-K, which is limited to 2MJ per lap.

Also, as suggested in some earlier posts, they can run some exotic MGU-H/turbo wastegate operations that also make no sense in a sustainable lap after lap power delivery during the race.



#1725 CL16

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:10

Yeah basically because there isn’t much to play for now the FIA are sorting out the legality now before next season.

#1726 CSF

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:11

Can we go back to 2013 and ban Mercedes design for 2014? That would make everyone "equal" as Toto suddenly is calling for in 2020.  :lol:



#1727 Okyo

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:25

I rather hope Ferrari will continue smashing the top speed lists with the new engine for Leclerc just to show a finger to a certain team. 

 

But if they don't, oh well  :p



#1728 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:28

Can we go back to 2013 and ban Mercedes design for 2014? That would make everyone "equal" as Toto suddenly is calling for in 2020. :lol:


Problem is Mercedes just did a better job, as evidenced by the field closing up.. the loopholes they had exploited were closed down..

All of the clarifications so far have been illegal, if Ferrari genuinely has done a far better job of putting down power without breaking the rules (which already existed and are now being clarified) then they’ve got nothing to be concerned about.

#1729 Marklar

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:34

like we know 2+2=4?

Well FIA confirms with the recent directives that 2+2=4 just in case those Italian idiots think it’s 3 or 5 😁

The FIA let Renault run with an illegal system for 4 years and would have never notice until Racing Point protested, so yes, 2+2=4 questions to the FIA make sense if you consider thir sheer incompetence.

#1730 Hela

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 12:38

It's funny how Ferrari fans are so against clarifications by other teams but conveniently forget how they clarified suspension rules that affected Redbull and Mercedes 2 years ago. I bet most are sweating and will be staring at the speed traps in hope this has not ruined their car performance. FP and qualy will be so interesting, I can just picture it 

 

He had DRS open, no he didn't, he got a tow, not it was sheer grunt.........  He was affected by the bump in T1..........  :drunk: 


Edited by Hela, 14 November 2019 - 12:39.


#1731 femi

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 16:27

This is all getting a bit annoying. And Red Bull of all teams making the most noises. Ferrari should have pressed on with RBR’s flexi wings - they did pass the load test but had Ferrari done the same by sending FIA all kinds of examples then perhaps the TDs would have been issued which would have put a stop to them. And what about the suspension adjustment device which was found in their cars that Horner claimed ‘was there but never used’ or something to that effect? That was RBR caught with an illegal device on their cars red handed. And they had the gall to throw this cheating allegations around with their out of control driver going as far as calling Ferrari cheats.

Not for me, I am grinning from ear to ear!



#1732 pup

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 16:40

From Honda:
So it seems Honda are also convinced someone is cheating.

https://www.motorspo...errari/4596184/

Really surprised that Honda would wade into this - there's no point with Red Bull is doing the talking.  Seems like a political mistake.  I mean, if they want to set themselves up as the angels of F1, they picked the wrong team to partner with.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a round of retaliatory clarification requests from Ferrari, aimed at Red Bull/Honda.    


Edited by pup, 14 November 2019 - 16:42.


#1733 Requiem84

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 16:49

Really surprised that Honda would wade into this - there's no point with Red Bull is doing the talking. Seems like a political mistake. I mean, if they want to set themselves up as the angels of F1, they picked the wrong team to partner with. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a round of retaliatory clarification requests from Ferrari, aimed at Red Bull/Honda.


There problaby is not much to clarify regarding the Honda PU.

So how Ferrari ‘retaliate’?

#1734 SonGoku

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 16:52

Honda don't like grey areas and are not happy at all with Ferrari engine tricks.

#1735 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 16:54

It's funny how Ferrari fans are so against clarifications by other teams but conveniently forget how they clarified suspension rules that affected Redbull and Mercedes 2 years ago. I bet most are sweating and will be staring at the speed traps in hope this has not ruined their car performance. FP and qualy will be so interesting, I can just picture it 

 

He had DRS open, no he didn't, he got a tow, not it was sheer grunt.........  He was affected by the bump in T1..........  :drunk: 

It's almost like some folks just started watching F1 for the last year and a half......When one team finds a edge, the other teams try to take it away....rinse and repeat....



#1736 JRodrigues

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 17:00

Really surprised that Honda would wade into this - there's no point with Red Bull is doing the talking.  Seems like a political mistake.  I mean, if they want to set themselves up as the angels of F1, they picked the wrong team to partner with.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a round of retaliatory clarification requests from Ferrari, aimed at Red Bull/Honda.    

 

What did you want him to say? That he wants everyone to cheat? This is a perfectly normal answer to a question he was asked.



#1737 pup

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 17:40

What did you want him to say?

Nothing. Why antagonize Ferrari when you already have what you want?

#1738 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 17:53

There problaby is not much to clarify regarding the Honda PU.

So how Ferrari ‘retaliate’?

Honda used leaked info from AVL to copy parts of Ferrari's engine 🤫

As reported by Motorsport.com, it would seem that the engine of the prancing horse has been the subject of interest for some time now by the technicians of Honda (supplier of engines to Red Bull). The Japanese engineers, to improve their performance, seem to have used the AVL system of Graz, the same already exploited by Ferrari previously. Therefore, a lot of information about the engine of the Maranello team would have ended up under the magnifying glass of Honda. A new "Spy Story" on the horizon?

It's still too early to say, but the next chapters of the "saga" could be full of surprises.

https://www.oasport....be-beneficiato/

https://it.motorspor...-honda/4593121/


Looking forward to the next episode. Netflix should make an F1 drama series.

Edited by JimmyTheFox, 14 November 2019 - 17:54.


#1739 Clatter

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 18:08

Really surprised that Honda would wade into this - there's no point with Red Bull is doing the talking. Seems like a political mistake. I mean, if they want to set themselves up as the angels of F1, they picked the wrong team to partner with. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a round of retaliatory clarification requests from Ferrari, aimed at Red Bull/Honda.

Are Honda still the last team to get a multi race ban for breaking the rules?

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#1740 ARTGP

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 18:20

Ferrari have had a lot of reliability problems with the power unit (ICE, ERS-K, ERS-H) compared to Mercedes and Honda. Would it be reasonable to assume Ferrari are pushing things a lot harder than Mercedes and Honda are?   Other than some random misfires in practice in Canada, the Mercedes power unit has been faultless in the factory team (the lack of cooling is another issue entirely that held them back in Austria and Mexico). Similarly, Honda hasn't had issues in the RB in the races. 

 

It doesn't seem like Merc and Honda are really pushing the power unit to the limit in a way that Ferrari are. Maybe this is what is really catching them off guard?  Maybe Ferrari's design factor of safety is just a lot lower than Merc and Honda.


Edited by ARTGP, 14 November 2019 - 19:05.


#1741 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 19:16

The FIA let Renault run with an illegal system for 4 years and would have never notice until Racing Point protested, so yes, 2+2=4 questions to the FIA make sense if you consider thir sheer incompetence.

 

Ya but that got fixed through a protest and not a clarification. 



#1742 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 21:40

Ok can someone explain to me what on earth is news worthy about this since I'm really not getting this...

 

https://www.autospor...st-engine-twist

 

They're already meant to be doing this?

 

20.6 Engine oil approval :

 

20.6.1 Before any engine oil may be used in an Event, two separate one‐litre samples, in suitable containers, must be submitted to the FIA for analysis and approval.

 

20.6.2 No engine oil may be used in an Event without prior written approval of the FIA.

 

20.7 Sampling and testing at an Event :

 

20.7.1 Each competitor must declare, prior to every Event, which oil will be used in each of their engines during the Event.

 

20.7.2 For reference purposes, before any oil may be used at an Event, a sample must be submitted to the FIA together with the oil reference number.

 

20.7.3 No competitor may use more than one oil in a given engine during an Event.

 

20.7.4 Engine oil samples taken during an Event will be checked for conformity by using a Fourier transform infrared (FTIR) technique, which will compare the sample taken with that submitted at the start of the event. Samples which differ from the reference engine oil in a manner consistent with fuel dilution, engine fluids contamination and oil ageing as a result of normal engine operation, will be considered to conform. Samples which differ from the reference engine oil in a manner consistent with the mixing with other engine oils, which have been approved by the FIA for use by the team, will be deemed to comply, provided that the adulterant oils are in total present at no more than 10% in the sample. However, the FIA retains the right to subject the oil sample to further testing at an FIA approved laboratory.


Edited by pitlanepalpatine, 14 November 2019 - 21:41.


#1743 screamingV16

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 22:53

Are Honda still the last team to get a multi race ban for breaking the rules?

Technically the team was still BAR in 2005, Honda only fully bought out the team and took over at the end of the season.



#1744 Clatter

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 23:25

Technically the team was still BAR in 2005, Honda only fully bought out the team and took over at the end of the season.


Good point, forgotten that.

#1745 HPT

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 23:54

Not for me, I am grinning from ear to ear!


Haha I’m pleased for you :)

#1746 george1981

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 08:11

I'm still not convinced that Ferrari were deliberately cheating or following the technical directive in Austin that they changed their car in order to comply with it which then made their car slower. 

It seemed to me that the Ferrari engine got a lot better a few years ago but the chassis let them down. In preseason testing they looked like they'd dominate but then when the season started they struggled. The recent success they had could be due to them getting their car into a very specific window where it performs well and in Austin they didn't manage it. 

 

Traditionally the team in Brackley, (BAR, Honda, Brawn, Mercedes) struggled with making a car that would use its tyres properly which led to very peaky performance. In the Brawn year they had a lot more downforce than other teams which masked their tyre issues and for the majority of the time since 2014 they've had a big powertrain advantage. Although I think there's been a clear improvement in their chassis and tyre management even back in 2017 they were complaining that their car was a 'diva'. 



#1747 CountDooku

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 09:56

Really surprised that Honda would wade into this - there's no point with Red Bull is doing the talking.  Seems like a political mistake.  I mean, if they want to set themselves up as the angels of F1, they picked the wrong team to partner with.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see a round of retaliatory clarification requests from Ferrari, aimed at Red Bull/Honda.    

 

What's wrong with Honda wanting all engines to be legal, rather than Highly Legal TM which is the Maranello standard?



#1748 Clatter

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 10:45

What's wrong with Honda wanting all engines to be legal, rather than Highly Legal TM which is the Maranello standard?

So you have made your mind up that that the Ferrari engine is illegal then.

Edited by Clatter, 15 November 2019 - 10:48.


#1749 CountDooku

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 10:51

So you have made your mind up that that the Ferrari engine is illegal then.

 

I have never posted the words Ferrari and illegal in the same sentence. I do no a bit about Newton's law on the conservation of energy however and have posted about that numerous times. :D



#1750 ferrarista

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 12:51

I have never posted the words Ferrari and illegal in the same sentence. I do no a bit about Newton's law on the conservation of energy however and have posted about that numerous times. :D

so are you insinuating Ferrari can achieve that amount of power only through illegal means?