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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#151 Henri Greuter

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 17:25

An engine mode for cornering... now there's something.... who needs aero! It could save F1. No more DRS required. :)

 

Actually, this is not as strange as it sounds, something like that has happened, even if it was inspired by aero!

In the days of the exhaust blown diffusers. RedBull asked Renault to develop engine mappings to make sure that the engine still produces a more powerful exhaust  flow in slower corners to enhance the effect of the diffuser to generate more downforce, even when there was not any single other reason to even think about allowing the engine to burn off more fuel.


Edited by Henri Greuter, 25 July 2018 - 18:37.


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#152 CPR

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 17:44

Exactly! Very well said, it's what I was trying to explain.

 

Don't agree with your conclusion in the end though. IIRC they have fixed ratios all season which would prevent something like this from happening. I think they are somehow being much more aggressive in their deployment over a Q lap in the early part of straights and are somehow able to be at peak power for longer as a % of total laptime.

 

This isn't about gear ratios at all though. My little theory on what Ferrari could be doing is unrelated to the gear ratios or whether they can be changed during the season or not.

 

I'm sure most people are familiar with the term "engine map". What I'm talking about here is the inner workings of the engine map itself. For a given "engine map", it's basically a description of how to take a series of inputs and convert (map) them to a series of outputs. The outputs would be things like what mode the MGU-H and MGU-K would be in, the air/fuel mixture, the ignition timings and so on. One of the inputs would be the throttle pedal. I don't believe there's anything disallowing the currently select gear being part of the input either. In other words, in the same way that it's possible to have an overall Q3 "party mode" that is more aggressive than the Q1 or Q2 engine maps, I think it would be possible to have an engine map where some gears have more aggressive settings than others within a given engine map.

 

So for a specific engine map, you could have (say) gears 3, 4 and 5 using more aggressive settings than the other gears. This would give you an extra kick at the start of the acceleration zones, improving performance down the entire straight.

 

Why not use these more aggressive settings for all the gears? Because it puts too much strain on the engine. For gears 1-2, you would be traction limited anyway and wouldn't need more power. A F1 car will accelerate through gears 3-5 quite quickly (2 seconds or so) but down a long straight keeping the engine in this more aggressive setting for say 5-10 seconds would put a lot more strain on the engine, particularly at higher revs. The reason why "party mode" gets limited use is the same - it puts more straight on the engine, so the usage is limited to when it's most useful. For an F1 car accelerating out of a corner, the most useful time to have some extra power would be at the start of the acceleration zone - an extra 20 hp for the first second would be more useful than an extra 20 hp for the last second. It wouldn't be legal for the engine to automatically adjust the power based on its position down the straight but if you have different power settings for different gears then you can get pretty much the same benefit.

 

All the PUs probably have slight differences in the engine map for different gears. My little theory with Ferrari is that they've gone very fine grained on the optimisation between power and lifetime for the engine and taken this concept a lot further, particularly for qualifying. They've probably improved the base engine along with it as well.



#153 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:20

Interesting theory CPR but I don’t think it’s plausible because it’s been known for a while now that the big teams and engine manufacturers have been using super-computer powered Monte Carlo simulations to arrive at the optimal deployment strategy at each track. You would expect each team to arrive at the optimal strategy for each track as they can simulate so many solutions.

Ferrari seem to be gaining on each and every straight, both at acceleration and near v-Max. This to me looks like they are simply deploying more electrical energy across the lap.

#154 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:36

Interesting theory CPR but I don’t think it’s plausible because it’s been known for a while now that the big teams and engine manufacturers have been using super-computer powered Monte Carlo simulations to arrive at the optimal deployment strategy at each track. You would expect each team to arrive at the optimal strategy for each track as they can simulate so many solutions.

Ferrari seem to be gaining on each and every straight, both at acceleration and near v-Max. This to me looks like they are simply deploying more electrical energy across the lap.

 

But that would not give them extra boosts on the straights, but more deployment over the course of a lap. Every manufacturer is using maximum 120 kW available by the regulations on longer straights, because it’s the most beneficial. You cannot transfer more energy from the MGU-K to the engine or it’s ancillaries at any given time.


Edited by doc83, 25 July 2018 - 18:36.


#155 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:41

But that would not give them extra boosts on the straights, but more deployment over the course of a lap. Every manufacturer is using maximum 120 kW available by the regulations on longer straights, because it’s the most beneficial. You cannot transfer more energy from the MGU-K to the engine or it’s ancillaries at any given time.

The transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K and vice versa is unlimited in MJ's.

 

True: MGU-K can only develop 120 kW continuously but it is not time or energy limited if powered from MGU-H.

 

 

90OPdlX.png


Edited by Jvr, 25 July 2018 - 18:46.


#156 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 18:55

After having looked at that energy flow chart I can actually now see how they are "cheating"  :p

 

Very clever and all written in the rules.



#157 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:00

The transfer from MGU-H to MGU-K and vice versa is unlimited in MJ's.

 

True: MGU-K can only develop 120 kW continuously but it is not time or energy limited if powered from MGU-H.

 

 

I know. But still you cannot transfer more than 120 kW from MGU-K to the drive train at any point of the lap or I’m missing something ?

 

Technical regulations:

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.


Edited by doc83, 25 July 2018 - 19:00.


#158 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:02

I know. But still you cannot transfer more than 120 kW from MGU-K to the drive train at any point of the lap or I’m missing something ?

 

Technical regulations:

5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.

Yes.

 

:p



#159 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:09

I know. But still you cannot transfer more than 120 kW from MGU-K to the drive train at any point of the lap or I’m missing something ?

Technical regulations:
5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.


120kw is instantaneous power. What I am talking about is energy. I think Ferrari are using more energy from the electrical system over the lap, likely as JVR said by a combination of deploying from the H directly to the K and clever use of the ES.

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#160 Kalmake

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:17

The clearly allowed 4MJ already gives 33 seconds of max MGU-K power per lap. 33 seconds is enough to use it out of every corner. If they are using more energy it wouldn't show at the start of straights, but as longer deployment.



#161 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:20

120kw is instantaneous power. What I am talking about is energy. I think Ferrari are using more energy from the electrical system over the lap, likely as JVR said by a combination of deploying from the H directly to the K and clever use of the ES.

You are getting there...

 

And as I said, it is all in the regulations.



#162 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:24

120kw is instantaneous power. What I am talking about is energy. I think Ferrari are using more energy from the electrical system over the lap, likely as JVR said by a combination of deploying from the H directly to the K and clever use of the ES.

 

How would that give extra boosts on the straights? When every competitor is using maximum allowed 120 kW there ?


Edited by doc83, 25 July 2018 - 19:26.


#163 JonnyJ

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:27

You are getting there...

 

And as I said, it is all in the regulations.

 

Come on JVR, some of us here work with our hands. Spit it out!



#164 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:28

Come on JVR, some of us here work with our hands. Spit it out!

 

Mercedes’ and Renault’s engineers would love to know as well. 



#165 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:29

Come on JVR, some of us here work with our hands. Spit it out!

Sorry to be a tease but it is all in that graph I posted, if you split the ES in two.

 

Not a hard one at all.


Edited by Jvr, 25 July 2018 - 19:44.


#166 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:41

Sorry to be a tease but it is all in that graph I posted, if you split the ES in two.

 

Not a hard one at all.

 

EDIT: if you can generate more than 4MJ during a lap with both MGU-H and MGU-K combined. Others it will not work.

 

What benefit would exactly that give you?  ES is just a combination of cells. You can even spit it into 8 but you still cannot use more than 4MJ /lap.  


Edited by doc83, 25 July 2018 - 19:43.


#167 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 19:49

What benefit would exactly that give you?  ES is just a combination of cells. You can even spit it into 8 but you still cannot use more than 4MJ /lap.  

Yes you can, if you feed it through the MGU-H...



#168 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:10

Yes you can, if you feed it through the MGU-H...


I don’t think that’s it. The MGUH is a motor-generator. Unless Ferrari are actually bypassing the physical H with clever circuitry...

#169 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:14

I don’t think that’s it. The MGUH is a motor-generator. Unless Ferrari are actually bypassing the physical H with clever circuitry...

The graph only shows regulation of energy flows between the units.

 

If energy goes from ES through CU to MGU-H through CU to MGU-K, it is unlimited in a lap. That graph handles them as black boxes.

 

And by bifurcating the ES, Ferrari can show that the ES to MGU-K energy flow that is regulated is not "poisoned" from one source to another validating the graph energy flows.


Edited by Jvr, 25 July 2018 - 20:15.


#170 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:15

The clearly allowed 4MJ already gives 33 seconds of max MGU-K power per lap. 33 seconds is enough to use it out of every corner. If they are using more energy it wouldn't show at the start of straights, but as longer deployment.


How long are you on WOT in Silverstone? 70%+. Hockenheim? Almost 60%. Perhaps Mercedes doesn’t use the full 120kw at the start of acceleration because their model tells them that to optimise deployment of their energy they have to wait a couple of seconds and they start from say 60Kw. Ferrari on the other hand might deploy fully earlier and for longer in the acceleration zones.

There’s also the supercharging element to consider. If you somehow have more energy in the ES you can deploy more of it to spin the generator of the H and generate more boost for the ICE. This is pure speculation on my part though.

#171 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:22

The graph only shows regulation of energy flows between the units.

If energy goes from ES through CU to MGU-H through CU to MGU-K, it is unlimited in a lap. That graph handles them as black boxes.

And by bifurcating the ES, Ferrari can show that the ES to MGU-K energy flow that is regulated is not "poisoned" from one source to another validating the graph energy flows.

So Cell 1 powers the K directly with 4MJ per lap but then Cell 2 directs more energy via the H and CU to the K for low speed acceleration.
Meanwhile the gasses at WOT can then send energy back to Cell 2 during high speed to charge it whilst Cell 1 continues to deploy to the K.

Interesting theory. Could mean that we never see Ferrari derating during Q.

Edited by CountDooku, 25 July 2018 - 20:36.


#172 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:30

So Cell 1 powers the K directly with 4MJ per lap but then Cell 2 directs more energy via the H and CU to the K for low speed acceleration.
Meanwhile the gasses at WOT can then send energy back to Cell 2 during high speed to charge it whilst Cell 1 continues to deploy to the K.

Interesting theory. Could mean that we never see Ferrari have sweated during Q.

It is even more beautiful:

 

During braking the MGU-K can collect unlimited amount of energy fed through the MGU-H back to ES without that 2MJ per lap limitation to be used again in an unlimited mode back.

 

You just need a Chinese firewall in ES to show that FIA Energy Budget regulation is satisfied and that the max capacity of the ES is indeed 4MJ all the time during the lap. Note that the regulation does not say that the ES capacity must be max 4 MJ, only that the energy storage there must not exceed that at any time of the lap.

 

Rest is optimisation.


Edited by Jvr, 25 July 2018 - 20:34.


#173 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:40

It is even more beautiful:

During braking the MGU-K can collect unlimited amount of energy fed through the MGU-H back to ES without that 2MJ per lap limitation to be used again in an unlimited mode back.

You just need a Chinese firewall in ES to show that FIA Energy Budget regulation is satisfied and that the max capacity of the ES is indeed 4MJ all the time during the lap. Note that the regulation does not say that the ES capacity must be max 4 MJ, only that the energy storage there must not exceed that at any time of the lap.

Rest is optimisation.


Clever, clever, clever! This is all speculation but would be well within the rules.

The question for me though is how you Route the energy from the K or ES via the H without making it do work and screwing up its interaction with the turbo and this the ICE. I think that’s key.

#174 JonnyJ

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:46

Even when its explained i still dont get it, but then I've never even tried to understand these engines!

 

Those that do, is there a situation when this would give you a greater advantage. IE, on a longer rack like Spa? Or would it be the same?



#175 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:47

The graph only shows regulation of energy flows between the units.

 

If energy goes from ES through CU to MGU-H through CU to MGU-K, it is unlimited in a lap. That graph handles them as black boxes.

 

And by bifurcating the ES, Ferrari can show that the ES to MGU-K energy flow that is regulated is not "poisoned" from one source to another validating the graph energy flows.

 

 

Clever, clever, clever! This is all speculation but would be well within the rules.

The question for me though is how you Route the energy from the K or ES via the H without making it do work and screwing up its interaction with the turbo and this the ICE. I think that’s key.

 

 

Nice theory but the FIA placed additional sensors in the Ferrari’s engine to make sure that is not happening.

You cannot simply add wires from ES to MGU-K through MGU-H and pretend the 4MJ limit doesn’t exist. That would be blatant cheating.

 

Also the split ES is treated as one. As I said before. ES is just a combination of cells. FIA must measure both ES – MGU-K and ES MGU-H energy transfers separately, otherwise they wouldn’t know if 4MJ limit is met. So I don’t see how splitting the ES would change anything. Separate flows.



#176 CountDooku

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:51

Nice theory but the FIA placed additional sensors in the Ferrari’s engine to make sure that is not happening.
You cannot simply add wires from ES to MGU-K through MGU-H and pretend the 4MJ limit doesn’t exist. That would be blatant cheating.

Also the split ES is treated as one. As I said before. ES is just a combination of cells. FIA must measure both ES – MGU-K and ES MGU-H energy transfers separately, otherwise they wouldn’t know if 4MJ limit is met. So I don’t see how splitting the ES would change anything. Separate flows.


Only the ES to K is limited. As JVR says, the ES to H is unlimited, as is the combined capacity of the ES. Key for me is how energy can be routed from the ES via the H to the K to whether the theory is viable or not.

#177 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:58

Only the ES to K is limited. As JVR says, the ES to H is unlimited, as is the combined capacity of the ES. Key for me is how energy can be routed from the ES via the H to the K to whether the theory is viable or not.

It is that path of least resistance.

 

K - H - ES and vice versa energy flows are unlimited.

 

As I said, the regulation treats them as black boxes (CE in the middle) and if there can not be shown any poisoning between the energies in ES contradicting the FIA regulation, you have it all there.

 

Thereafter, optimisation...



#178 doc83

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 20:59

Only the ES to K is limited. As JVR says, the ES to H is unlimited, as is the combined capacity of the ES. Key for me is how energy can be routed from the ES via the H to the K to whether the theory is viable or not.

 

This video has been posted in the Ferrari thread some time ago.

 

https://streamable.com/hg6gd

 

Rosberg explains where the extra power most likely comes from. But it still does not explain sudden boost on the straights, just overall lap deployment.



#179 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 21:02

Even when its explained i still dont get it, but then I've never even tried to understand these engines!

 

Those that do, is there a situation when this would give you a greater advantage. IE, on a longer rack like Spa? Or would it be the same?

The thing, many dismiss, is the function of the time.

 

FIA regulation is not written with time function in their mind over ES usage, other than never can the ES energy amount as well as direct ES to K energy feed exceed 4MJ during a lap.

 

Time, time, time...

 

EDIT: interesting question of that of the advantage over longer laps or other circuits with different profiles. If I may, I will think about that, but my engineering intuition is that it could get less efficient over longer lap circuits. 

 

The more you need to brake and again accelerate due to the track profile, would probably also be beneficial. However, the MGU-H is the weirdest beast to understand how to optimise so I am not sure.


Edited by Jvr, 25 July 2018 - 21:08.


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#180 Kalmake

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 21:15

How long are you on WOT in Silverstone? 70%+. Hockenheim? Almost 60%. Perhaps Mercedes doesn’t use the full 120kw at the start of acceleration because their model tells them that to optimise deployment of their energy they have to wait a couple of seconds and they start from say 60Kw. Ferrari on the other hand might deploy fully earlier and for longer in the acceleration zones.

That kind of model makes no sense to me. Surely you want all the power down as early as possible.

 

Same logic applies as with lift and coasting. It's faster than using same amount of fuel by partial throttle.



#181 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 21:15

Nice theory but the FIA placed additional sensors in the Ferrari’s engine to make sure that is not happening.

You cannot simply add wires from ES to MGU-K through MGU-H and pretend the 4MJ limit doesn’t exist. That would be blatant cheating.

 

Also the split ES is treated as one. As I said before. ES is just a combination of cells. FIA must measure both ES – MGU-K and ES MGU-H energy transfers separately, otherwise they wouldn’t know if 4MJ limit is met. So I don’t see how splitting the ES would change anything. Separate flows.

You, I beg my pardon, misunderstand what FIA energy flows mean and how two ES cells can satisfy that requirement.

 

By separating the ES cells, Ferrari can show the ES <-> MGU-K energy flows are not exceeded while getting a free flow path of energy between other parts.

 

Just read the regulation, none of what you claimed is told there.



#182 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 21:21

You, I beg my pardon, misunderstand what FIA energy flows mean and how two ES cells can satisfy that requirement.

By separating the ES cells, Ferrari can show the ES <-> MGU-K energy flows are not exceeded while getting a free flow path of energy between other parts.

Just read the regulation, none of what you claimed is told there.

Basically exploit a grey area?

If true we can expect a rule clarification?

#183 Whiz

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 21:25

Basically exploit a grey area?

If true we can expect a rule clarification?

 

The FIA said they are happy with what Ferrari is doing. I don't think there will be a rule clarification...



#184 Jvr

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 21:27

Basically exploit a grey area?

If true we can expect a rule clarification?

Maybe, maybe not.

 

Fundamentally they are making more efficient use of the fuel what has been this whole "Green" F1 all about.



#185 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 21:29

The FIA said they are happy with what Ferrari is doing. I don't think there will be a rule clarification...

So they are forced to spend money on R&D on this given that they are going scrap these PU’s in a few years, no wonder why the current manufactures have changed there mind about the scrapping of the H...

And is Toto after more money from Damiler for this extra R&D?

#186 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 23:11

I know. But still you cannot transfer more than 120 kW from MGU-K to the drive train at any point of the lap or I’m missing something ?

Technical regulations:
5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.


You’re not missing anything. There are still people discussing these PUs who confuse power and energy.

#187 l2k2

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 23:37

After having looked at that energy flow chart I can actually now see how they are "cheating" :p

Very clever and all written in the rules.


Yes. There most certainly is at least one obvious loophole. The 2-MJ recovery limit, too, seems to be violatable... If only I had nice recording equipment and a a seat near a heavy braking zone to see whom (if not all) are using the “time domain” to route their power through better arrows.

Though, it is slightly lossy way... But could they really be using that particular property of ... to ...

;-)

#188 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 00:07

Yes. There most certainly is at least one obvious loophole. The 2-MJ recovery limit, too, seems to be violatable... If only I had nice recording equipment and a a seat near a heavy braking zone to see whom (if not all) are using the “time domain” to route their power through better arrows.

Though, it is slightly lossy way... But could they really be using that particular property of ... to ...

;-)

As I said in my earlier post, people do not understand the time dimension of that chart, combined with separated ES stores.



#189 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 00:28

Yes. There most certainly is at least one obvious loophole. The 2-MJ recovery limit, too, seems to be violatable... If only I had nice recording equipment and a a seat near a heavy braking zone to see whom (if not all) are using the “time domain” to route their power through better arrows.

Though, it is slightly lossy way... But could they really be using that particular property of ... to ...

;-)

I can't really see the value of the "time domain" as you put it l2k2.  2MJ is the maximum that can be recovered directly from the 'K' to the ES.  More can be recovered via the unlimited 'K' > 'H' > ES route, however even recovering 2MJ via braking can be difficult so I don't think there is much room for excess.  While in theory more than 4MJ of energy per lap can be passed from the battery to the 'K' if we include the unlimited paths, you can't simply pluck energy from the sky.  Using the ICE in GENSET modes could help while at partial throttle with the 'K' harvesting via the unlimited path, but I don't believe there're huge gains to be found (supplementing the ES) using that method.


Edited by OO7, 26 July 2018 - 00:32.


#190 HP

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 00:45

I find it curious that the 0.5 seconds Ferrari advantage on straights was brought up in Hockenheim.

 

The top speeds to the speed trap were about 15 to 20 km/h higher in 2016 race qualifications vs. the ones in 2018.

 

So clearly there is more drag in this year's cars but I do not quite get the argument of Ferrari PU suddenly being much more powerful than Merc and rather the alleged Ferrari advantage being explained also due to better aero package.

Speed trap from the Hockenheim GP during the race. No Ferrari in sight.

 

https://images.scrib...119b7cb_800.jpg

 

From the Live coverage on AS.



#191 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 00:58

Speed trap from the Hockenheim GP during the race. No Ferrari in sight.

 

https://images.scrib...119b7cb_800.jpg

 

From the Live coverage on AS.

Notice that during the race, Kimi was the slowest of them all to the speed trap. Surely his driving skills?

 

https://www.fia.com/...?token=h-b64olq

 

0DnPHDH.png


Edited by Jvr, 26 July 2018 - 00:59.


#192 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 01:08

Look at Vandoorne with 341.4km/h.  I don't think Kimi ever used DRS down the longest straight.


Edited by OO7, 26 July 2018 - 01:11.


#193 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 01:16

Look at Vandoorne with 341.4km/h.  I don't think Kimi ever used DRS down the longest straight.

Maybe.

 

I think it also relates to the old PU his is using.

 

Instead look where Kimi is in the other measuring points: 1st, 1st, and 2nd.


Edited by Jvr, 26 July 2018 - 01:17.


#194 baddog

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 01:22

If the other manufacturers truly believed this was not achievable legally they would formally question it. They are seemingly smart enough to know that even for them, not knowing how their rival is doing something is not even close to being evidence that they are doing something wrong, so they stick at just casting a few vague deniable aspersions without any evidence. 

 

Now it could be that Ferrari are breaking the rules.. if so then I hope they get caught and hammered, but nothing has come out other than "wow that's a lot of power" so far.

 

By the way I'm pretty disgusted at the sanctimonious 'well you people are all too stupid to see the REAL reason we know they are cheating, if only you were as smart as us, I'm an engineer by the way' from people who should know better. The more knowledge you have the more aware of the limitations of that knowledge you should be. Great to offer your own opinions/ideas/knowledge, but putting your own bit of knowledge on a pedestal and insulting everyone else is not great.

Now it could be that Ferrari are breaking the rules.. but if they are 



#195 Wuzak

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 01:22

You, I beg my pardon, misunderstand what FIA energy flows mean and how two ES cells can satisfy that requirement.

 

By separating the ES cells, Ferrari can show the ES <-> MGU-K energy flows are not exceeded while getting a free flow path of energy between other parts.

 

Just read the regulation, none of what you claimed is told there.

 

This has been a discussion a F1Technical since last year - in relation to Honda. And now with Ferrari.

 

There was an article from Japan that suggested that the Honda had an extra recovery mode, where 2MJ would be recovered from the K as normal, but additional energy would be recovered from the K to the ES by cycling it through the H. This would be by motoring the H from the K, speeding it up, and then switching the H back into generator mode, slowing it down and sending energy to the ES.

 

Note that at most tracks recovering 2MJ from braking is difficult, or impossible, unless lift and coast methods are employed. But it is likely that some is recovered under power.

 

Silverstone is the most difficult circuit for brake energy recovery - they wouldn't be able to recover 1MJ under normal braking. So it is telling that Ferrari had better deployment at that circuit than Mercedes.

 

But having extra deployment also requires extra energy recovery. They may have found a better strategy for recovery, or just simply can recover through the H at higher power levels.



#196 deanfrancis

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 02:20

This has been a discussion a F1Technical since last year - in relation to Honda. And now with Ferrari.

 

There was an article from Japan that suggested that the Honda had an extra recovery mode, where 2MJ would be recovered from the K as normal, but additional energy would be recovered from the K to the ES by cycling it through the H. This would be by motoring the H from the K, speeding it up, and then switching the H back into generator mode, slowing it down and sending energy to the ES.

 

Note that at most tracks recovering 2MJ from braking is difficult, or impossible, unless lift and coast methods are employed. But it is likely that some is recovered under power.

 

Silverstone is the most difficult circuit for brake energy recovery - they wouldn't be able to recover 1MJ under normal braking. So it is telling that Ferrari had better deployment at that circuit than Mercedes.

 

But having extra deployment also requires extra energy recovery. They may have found a better strategy for recovery, or just simply can recover through the H at higher power levels.

 

The discussion on f1technical is quite fascinating. In my mind what Ferrari are doing aligns with something clever being done with energy management (specific additional boost on specific straights - wellington straight at silversone, plus the amount of energy they were able to recover at Silverstone with no major braking events).

 

Possible theory:

 - Additional recovery of energy: From MGU-K to MGU-H to ES (via switching - the MGU-H being driven by the K to spin it up, then using it to give energy to the ES). I believe Honda were  doing this switching at 20Hz?

 - Additional deployment: From ES to MGU-H to MGU-K (again switching from spinning up the MGU-H with energy from the ES, then switch to generating with the MGU-H to flow energy to the MGU-K).

 

This is a very clever solution and could be the way Ferrari are able to deploy more than 4MJ from the ES. Of course there would be energy losses, but it seems like a valid way to by pass the FIA limitations of energy flows ES <-> MGU-K.



#197 CountDooku

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 05:31

This would explain why the Ferrari is so potent in Q, when they should be able to charge up the ES with energy above the 4MJ limit in the formation lap. They can also charge the ES in the garage right?

#198 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 05:46

This would explain why the Ferrari is so potent in Q, when they should be able to charge up the ES with energy above the 4MJ limit in the formation lap. They can also charge the ES in the garage right?

Not during qualifying or a race pitstop.



#199 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 06:45

So the ES can be bigger than 4MJ?

I thought that was the maximum regulated size...


So if they scrap the H we can also expected more lift and coast?

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#200 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 06:51

So the ES can be bigger than 4MJ?

I thought that was the maximum regulated size...


So if they scrap the H we can also expected more lift and coast?

The ES can be designed to store more than 4MJ, however the difference between the minimum and maximum state of charge can't exceed 4MJ.