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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#201 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:02

The ES can be designed to store more than 4MJ, however the difference between the minimum and maximum state of charge can't exceed 4MJ.

So why have it store more than the maximum of 4MJ? If that’s the allowed maximum charge state?

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#202 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:08

So why have it store more than the maximum of 4MJ? If that’s the allowed maximum charge state?

There may be reasons associated with battery life, also it depends on how much energy can be harvested.  If a team could theoretically find the excess energy, they could harvest and deploy 3MJ twice per lap (for example) and still remain within the ES SoC limit.



#203 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:16

There may be reasons associated with battery life, also it depends on how much energy can be harvested.  If a team could theoretically find the excess energy, they could harvest and deploy 3MJ twice per lap (for example) and still remain within the ES SoC limit.


Deployment from ES is limited to 4MJ per lap? How would deploying 3MJ per lap twice fit within the rules?

#204 PiperPa42

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:21

Deployment from ES is limited to 4MJ per lap? How would deploying 3MJ per lap twice fit within the rules?

The limit is 4MJ from ES to MGU-K, if you find a Way to route the power from ES to MGU-H and then on to MGU-K, then there are no limits Per the chart posted further up.

#205 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:25

The limit is 4MJ from ES to MGU-K, if you find a Way to route the power from ES to MGU-H and then on to MGU-K, then there are no limits Per the chart posted further up.

Exactly. :up:



#206 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:25

The limit is 4MJ from ES to MGU-K, if you find a Way to route the power from ES to MGU-H and then on to MGU-K, then there are no limits Per the chart posted further up.


True, but harvesting from MGU-K to ES is limited to 2MJ per lap, so that would be harvested energy from the MGU-H to ES sent back to the MGU-H?

#207 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:27

True, but harvesting from MGU-K to ES is limited to 2MJ per lap, so that would be harvested energy from the MGU-H to ES sent back to the MGU-H?

Yes it could be.



#208 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:38

Yes it could be.


Surely that energy can only be used to accelerate the turbo charger and not passed through to the MGU-K? That would be an easy way to deploy more than the allowed 4MJ per lap from ES to MGU-K, using the MGU-H as a by-pass.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 26 July 2018 - 07:39.


#209 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:46

Surely that energy can only be used to accelerate the turbo charger and not passed through to the MGU-K? That would be an easy way to deploy more than the allowed 4MJ per lap from ES to MGU-K, using the MGU-H as a by-pass.

Yes, the energy harvested by the 'H' to the ES can then be sent back to the 'H' for anti-lag operation and or sent to the 'K' via the 'H' to circumvent the 4MJ direct ES to 'K' limitation.



#210 Nonesuch

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:50

Good to see the regulations being quoted, and some attention being focussed on the giant 'UNLIMITED' signs posted all over them.

 

It's not like there isn't scope for improving the energy deployment without breaking any regulations.

 

It's unfortunate that even senior F1 people who know better - and are thus doing it on purpose - are feeding that suggestion.



#211 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:50

Yes, the energy harvested by the 'H' to the ES can then be sent back to the 'H' for anti-lag operation and or sent to the 'K' via the 'H' to circumvent the 4MJ direct ES to 'K' limitation.


Okay, thanks 👍. Makes you wonder why there is a 4MJ limitation at all if it’s that easy to circumvent?

Edited by Ivanhoe, 26 July 2018 - 07:50.


#212 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:03

Okay, thanks . Makes you wonder why there is a 4MJ limitation at all if it’s that easy to circumvent?

I'm not sure about the 4MJ Ivanhoe, but it may have been implemented to limit storage rather than energy transfer.  Perhaps the unlimited path was formulated because it's an area of development that actually increases the efficiency of the ICE quite significantly.



#213 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:10

Good to see the regulations being quoted, and some attention being focussed on the giant 'UNLIMITED' signs posted all over them.

 

It's not like there isn't scope for improving the energy deployment without breaking any regulations.

 

It's unfortunate that even senior F1 people who know better - and are thus doing it on purpose - are feeding that suggestion.

In the case of Ferrari it's a little bit different or is being reported as such.  If Ferrari had made a significant breakthrough that allowed them to harvest 120kW ('K' output limit for example) from the exhaust gases and send that to the 'K' (unlimited path), it would be apparent from GPS and other sensor/data in the way the car was behaving e.g greater acceleration, greater sustained top speed in both qualification and race conditions due to maximum self-sustain output.  The Ferrari system however doesn't display those traits apparently.

https://www.auto-mot...elektro-benzin/


Edited by OO7, 26 July 2018 - 08:42.


#214 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:17

I'm not sure about the 4MJ Ivanhoe, but it may have been implemented to limit storage rather than energy transfer. Perhaps the unlimited path was formulated because it's an area of development that actually increases the efficiency of the ICE quite significantly.


Look like it’s implemented to limit both storage and deployment to the K OO7. The rules explicitly stipulate that transfer from ES to K is limited to 4 MJ per lap. Thinking of it, the ES - H - K route is of course not exactly the same as the ES - K route. The “H-by pass” requires conversion from DC current (ES) to AC current (H) to DC-current (K), which undoubtedly comes with energy loss, whilst with deployment from ES to K no conversion is needed (both DC current).

Edited by Ivanhoe, 26 July 2018 - 08:18.


#215 naukkis

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:24

So why have it store more than the maximum of 4MJ? If that’s the allowed maximum charge state?

 

Because batteries can't be fully discharged and charged, and they can be charged faster and deploy more energy when they are operating in best efficiency range, which is somewhere near 50% charged state. And most significant reason, batteries are much safer when they aren't used near their maximum charge/discharge rates, for which reason there is minimum battery pack weight also.



#216 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:27

You could always use more than 4MJ of energy to power MGUK by using the MGUH, that's nothing new and well-known since the beginning of the hybrid era.

  • ​4MJ from ES to power the MGUK
  • 2MJ* from ES to MGUH
  • unlimited amount of energy from MGUH to MGUK

* 2MJ would require 2MJ to be recuperated by the MGUK. More than 2MJ could be used out of the ES when MGUH is used to recharge the battery, but then it would not power the K so its a zero-sum game.

 

Long story short. You can only use 4MJ out of the battery per lap and the rest of the energy has to be recuperated during the lap. Thats nothing new here.

 



#217 naukkis

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:31

Look like it’s implemented to limit both storage and deployment to the K OO7. The rules explicitly stipulate that transfer from ES to K is limited to 4 MJ per lap. Thinking of it, the ES - H - K route is of course not exactly the same as the ES - K route. The “H-by pass” requires conversion from DC current (ES) to AC current (H) to DC-current (K), which undoubtedly comes with energy loss, whilst with deployment from ES to K no conversion is needed (both DC current).

 

Energy goes from H to ES via cable which has sensors to get energy and power measurements. From ES to K same. Free flow from H to K happens when there's similar energy coming from H to ES and going from ES to K. You only need 60KW from H to be able to double full 120KW K usage time from 33s to 66s, which is enough for most tracks to full use of K, totally in line with regulations.

 

If they want to ES power to H to K they also need first spin up H with ES and then generate that kinetic energy back to ES and to K, this is very inefficient way to do it, and very much not used at least in race, maybe in Q3 party mode it makes some sense.



#218 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:34

Look like it’s implemented to limit both storage and deployment to the K OO7. The rules explicitly stipulate that transfer from ES to K is limited to 4 MJ per lap. Thinking of it, the ES - H - K route is of course not exactly the same as the ES - K route. The “H-by pass” requires conversion from DC current (ES) to AC current (H) to DC-current (K), which undoubtedly comes with energy loss, whilst with deployment from ES to K no conversion is needed (both DC current).

Some of the transfer limitations do seem a little strange, but I'm sure there's a logical reason.  As for converting current from AC to DC and vice versa, that's beyond me :lol:, but I do understand they'd be losses.



#219 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:39

Energy goes from H to ES via cable which has sensors to get energy and power measurements. From ES to K same. Free flow from H to K happens when there's similar energy coming from H to ES and going from ES to K. You only need 60KW from H to be able to double full 120KW K usage time from 33s to 66s, which is enough for most tracks to full use of K, totally in line with regulations.

 

If they want to ES power to H to K they also need first spin up H with ES and then generate that kinetic energy back to ES and to K, this is very inefficient way to do it, and very much not used at least in race, maybe in Q3 party mode it makes some sense.

Andy Cowell stated that the 'H' provides 60% of the ERS energy which is almost 100bhp.  It's not far fetched to assume that's a conservative figure and is a demonstration of how valuable the 'H' is.


Edited by OO7, 26 July 2018 - 08:39.


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#220 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:39

Energy goes from H to ES via cable which has sensors to get energy and power measurements. From ES to K same. Free flow from H to K happens when there's similar energy coming from H to ES and going from ES to K You only need 60KW from H to be able to double full 120KW K usage time from 33s to 66s, which is enough for most tracks to full use of K, totally in line with regulations.
 
If they want to ES power to H to K they also need first spin up H with ES and then generate that kinetic energy back to ES and to K, this is very inefficient way to do it, and very much not used at least in race, maybe in Q3 party mode it makes some sense.

Thanks naukkis, not sure if I understand completely. Are you saying that direct flow from H to K goes via the ES?

#221 w1Y

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:54

No matter how many times i read this on f1 technical or here i still dont get it. Good job FIA good job!

Which has a direct link to actually powering the wheels on the asphalt?

ICE?
MGU-K?
MGU-H?

Genuinely I do find this all confusing.

Edited by w1Y, 26 July 2018 - 08:55.


#222 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:54

Andy Cowell stated that the 'H' provides 60% of the ERS energy which is almost 100bhp.  It's not far fetched to assume that's a conservative figure and is a demonstration of how valuable the 'H' is.

 

Nah man. It only means that 60% of the total energy is recuperated by the MGUH.


Edited by Nigol, 26 July 2018 - 08:55.


#223 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:54

No matter how many times i read this on f1 technical or here i still dont get it. Good job FIA good job!

Which has a direct link to actually powering the wheels on the asphalt?

ICE?
MGU-K?
MGU-H?

ICE & MGU-K only.



#224 w1Y

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:57

ICE & MGU-K only.


So if there is a limit between the MGUK and the wheels how can the unlimited MGUH to MGUK effect the power if it gets bottlenecked at MGUK limitations unless teams are unable to max that limit out

#225 CL16

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:58

https://twitter.com/...6864324608?s=21

#226 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:58

Nah man. It only means that 60% of the total energy is recuperated by the MGUH.

You may be right.



#227 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:00

So if there is a limit between the MGUK and the wheels how can the unlimited MGUH to MGUK effect the power if it gets bottlenecked at MGUK limitations unless teams are unable to max that limit out

 

Energy from battery to MGUK is limited.



#228 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:05

So if there is a limit between the MGUK and the wheels how can the unlimited MGUH to MGUK effect the power if it gets bottlenecked at MGUK limitations unless teams are unable to max that limit out


Only the power is limited to 120kW, energy from MGU-K to the crankshaft is unlimited.

#229 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:05

So if there is a limit between the MGUK and the wheels how can the unlimited MGUH to MGUK effect the power if it gets bottlenecked at MGUK limitations unless teams are unable to max that limit out

I think that's why suspicion surrounds Ferrari w1Y.  The 'K' is limited by the regs to 120kW or 161bhp.  The 'H' isn't supposed to possess the efficiency necessary to provide this energy (120kW) to the 'K' (80bhp is often quoted, however the early Cosworth presentation used a larger figure if I recall correctly), so it must be supplemented by the ES.



#230 CountDooku

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:07

Thanks naukkis, not sure if I understand completely. Are you saying that direct flow from H to K goes via the ES?

 

That won't work as the energy from ES to K would be limited to 4MJ per lap. If you want to use the most energy from the H to the K it has to go only via the CE.



#231 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:08

That won't work as the energy from ES to K would be limited to 4MJ per lap. If you want to use the most energy from the H to the K it has to go only via the CE.


My thoughts exactly Count, hence my question to naukkis

#232 CountDooku

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:10

 

Interesting! This is showing fantastic medium-high speed acceleration by Ferrari but then the blue line (which I think is Merc) ultimately has the highest VMax.

That looks like a significant power advantage to me.



#233 naukkis

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:19

That won't work as the energy from ES to K would be limited to 4MJ per lap. If you want to use the most energy from the H to the K it has to go only via the CE.

 

4MJ from battery storage. Energy coming same time from H isn't coming from battery. Easy to monitor.



#234 kernel

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:28

Can't the H supply the K with infinite power in theory? 



#235 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:34

Can't the H supply the K with infinite power in theory? 

 

No, power is limited to 120kW. I guess you mean energy, if so yes it could.


Edited by Nigol, 26 July 2018 - 09:34.


#236 w1Y

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:36

But the power/energy from the k is maximised no? Otherwise teams just bypass the ES if the limit is only between the es and k?

Edited by w1Y, 26 July 2018 - 09:36.


#237 naukkis

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:37

Can't the H supply the K with infinite power in theory? 

 

No, power and energy from and to K is measured. They just need one set of wires from both to ES to get everything working. If they use direct line from H to K(it probably isn't allowed) FIA has to put monitor there too and make more complex monitoring algorithms to monitor that power from ES and H to K isn't exceeding allowed 120KW.



#238 w1Y

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:39

Just put of curiosity. Is it possible to bypass the wires sensors through the use of wireless energy transfer? Simply yes or no?

#239 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:40

But the power/energy from the k is maximised no? Otherwise teams just bypass the ES if the limit is only between the es and k?

 

And where is this energy coming from?  :wave:



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#240 w1Y

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:46

And where is this energy coming from? :wave:


I dunno, the es to k but ultimately the H to ES? My understanding is it is only the link between the es and K which is monitored and has restrictions so that in my eyes would be the bit you try and get around. Its kind of why im asking questions smart ass. Because I dont understand it.

Edited by w1Y, 26 July 2018 - 09:49.


#241 naukkis

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:50

But the power/energy from the k is maximised no? Otherwise teams just bypass the ES if the limit is only between the es and k?

 

They monitor power and current from and to H and K. From this monitored energy FIA allow only 2MJ from K to put ES, and only 4MJ from ES to K. Power from and to K is restricted to 120KW. Rest of energy flowing is free. If they generate 120KW with K and H consumes same time 60KW they know that 60KW is going to ES. If K consumes 120KW and H generates 50KW 70KW worth of energy is coming from ES. Simple as that.



#242 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 09:54

Interesting! This is showing fantastic medium-high speed acceleration by Ferrari but then the blue line (which I think is Merc) ultimately has the highest VMax.

That looks like a significant power advantage to me.

There is a story as well behind that tweet.

 

https://www.auto-mot...elektro-benzin/



#243 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:01

And yet another theory, this time by Matt Somerfield.

 

https://www.motorspo...antage-1064053/



#244 w1Y

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:01

There is a story as well behind that tweet.

https://www.auto-mot...elektro-benzin/


Its prwtty amazing that no team has figured out what ferrari are doing. There is one thing to know the the area the team is strong and another to know how but at the moment it sounds like they do t even know either and if they are they are keeping it close to their chest

#245 JeePee

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:15

I absolutely love this discussion guys. Good work.

 

This is F1.



#246 xtremeclock

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:23

There is a story as well behind that tweet.

 

https://www.auto-mot...elektro-benzin/

 
 
I don't think Ferrari is in comfortable position, neither the FIA, with so many questions regarding this power advantage, especially from SF's rivals, how the FIA is handling all this? Are they elaborating beyond the "Everything is legal" ? In the end Mercedes or Renault will ask so many questions until they finally figure out Ferrari's secret.

 

The FIA have to stop this, there is a stink coming from all these meetings behind closed doors between Charlie/Mercedes & Renault, if tell you it's legal then it's legal, if you think they are cheating then lodge a formal protest and present your evidence. 


Edited by xtremeclock, 26 July 2018 - 10:24.


#247 JeePee

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:23

Look at how Kimi still arrives at a higher top speed than Max at the Spitzkhere hairpin, with a very VERY bad exit out of turn 3 and with no slipstream, while Max has his (starts at 0:22). That is some serious power advantage.

 

https://youtu.be/k5x4OrsiImY?t=22s



#248 CountDooku

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:39

I absolutely love this discussion guys. Good work.

This is F1.


Yup. And the spec series advocates want to destroy this aspect of the sport which is what makes F1 stand above everything else.

#249 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:49

I think due to the losses and heat generated from all that power from AC to DC and back to DC that they would go straight from the H to the K not and not bother as the H to K is unlimited anyway...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 26 July 2018 - 12:31.


#250 Kalmake

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:51

So that looks like they have more energy, not more power. The advantage starts at higher speeds, not at start of acceleration like some reports claimed.