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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#2551 ANF

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 23:33

When were Mercedes and Red Bull caught cheating?

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#2552 SlipperyDiff

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Posted Yesterday, 00:03

When were Mercedes and Red Bull caught cheating?

:rotfl:



#2553 baddog

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Posted Yesterday, 03:50

When were Mercedes and Red Bull caught cheating?

 

Really? 5 minutes on google will help you out there if you are new to the sport.



#2554 ANF

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Posted Yesterday, 09:39

Thanks.

#2555 DarthWillie

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Posted Yesterday, 10:40

I have a feeling Verstappen and Marko are very focal, to avoid atraction to te fact, the red bull out of nowhere was the car to beat the last part of the year

#2556 Requiem84

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Posted Yesterday, 10:46

Apart from Abu Dhabi.

#2557 taran

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Posted Yesterday, 11:02

I have a feeling Verstappen and Marko are very focal, to avoid atraction to te fact, the red bull out of nowhere was the car to beat the last part of the year

 

:rotfl:

 

Actually, Verstappen at least believed that he would be fighting Hamilton for the championship in the latter part of the season. That is why he was driving for points in the early part of the season, to keep Hamilton in reach. He believed that with Honda improvements and the traditional Red Bull honing of the chassis, it would all come together eventually. The Austrian win was a surprise for most (probably including RB) but by Hungary, RB was clearly gunning for Hamilton.

 

And then Ferrari suddenly jumped both Mercedes and Red Bull and (predictably) Verstappen started making mistakes again as he tried to keep up. It's been said that he was seriously pissed that Ferrari ruined his chances of taking the fight to Hamilton. Which would explain why he spoke so openly about them cheating if he believes that's why they were suddenly faster.

 

Still, not a smart thing to do. Knaves don't like being called knaves by people they have cheated.



#2558 femi

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Posted Yesterday, 11:07

Dude... are u serious? What are we talking about? Honorable? Cowardly? 

Do you remember that we are talking about F1 here? Any team would bend and stretch the rules to their own advantage or implement shady technical solutions as long as they would get away with it...

They all did it, Mercedes and RedBull and now they are standing there crying wolf... give me a break!

It was not about the teams cheating, it was more about the calling out of Max and Dad with the suggestion of burning bridges because they (Max especially) called a spade, a spade. To be silent in the face of strong conviction is corwadly and to call them out for speaking out is even worse!



#2559 Claudius

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Posted Yesterday, 11:14

It was not about the teams cheating, it was more about the calling out of Max and Dad with the suggestion of burning bridges because they (Max especially) called a spade, a spade. To be silent in the face of strong conviction is corwadly and to call them out for speaking out is even worse!

 

I don't think anyone outside of Ferrari knows if they are cheating apart from FIA maybe. Red Bull/Verstappen might think they are cheating but it's not clear yet.

So a spade is not necessarily a spade at this point. Hence my comments. 

Not everything in this world is black or white. 



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#2560 Augurk

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Posted Yesterday, 11:31

I don't think anyone outside of Ferrari knows if they are cheating apart from FIA maybe. Red Bull/Verstappen might think they are cheating but it's not clear yet.

So a spade is not necessarily a spade at this point. Hence my comments. 

Not everything in this world is black or white. 

I think it could be quite the opposite - that in a case of cheating with such a clear and identifiable advantage by the sport's longest-participating team - most figure heads in F1 (also from other teams) know what's going on. In the interest of the sport, I think most people would keep their mouths shut and a solution will be found behind closed doors. Max and Jos might just be the cracks that things are spilling through. 

 

Do you really think we would hear the details about it if it would really occur (if it has in this case is still up for debate, so I'm just posing a hypothetical question)?



#2561 ARTGP

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Posted Yesterday, 12:01

I think it could be quite the opposite - that in a case of cheating with such a clear and identifiable advantage by the sport's longest-participating team - most figure heads in F1 (also from other teams) know what's going on. In the interest of the sport, I think most people would keep their mouths shut and a solution will be found behind closed doors. Max and Jos might just be the cracks that things are spilling through.

Do you really think we would hear the details about it if it would really occur (if it has in this case is still up for debate, so I'm just posing a hypothetical question)?

Yes. When people know what’s going on, they spill the beans. That this has yet to play out like some of the events below shows nobody really knows what’s going on outside a very sober and tight knit group at Ferrari. Because this would have leaked at the bar otherwise....

Renault Mass Damper
BAR Honda Fuel Gate
Renault F1 automatic brake balance
McLaren F1 spygate
Mercedes F1 secret Tire test.

Monsieur Mosley  :p


Edited by ARTGP, Yesterday, 12:36.


#2562 taran

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Posted Yesterday, 13:16

Yes. When people know what’s going on, they spill the beans. That this has yet to play out like some of the events below shows nobody really knows what’s going on outside a very sober and tight knit group at Ferrari. Because this would have leaked at the bar otherwise....

Renault Mass Damper
BAR Honda Fuel Gate
Renault F1 automatic brake balance
McLaren F1 spygate
Mercedes F1 secret Tire test.

Monsieur Mosley  :p

 

No.

Ferrari have always been able to get away with cheating because the FIA protects them for commercial reasons. There is a reason they are called the Ferrari International Assistance....

 

If necessary, they will even re-interpret their own rules to absolve Ferrari (1999, barge boards). The recent fuel issue is yet another obvious case where the penalty was laughable because it was Ferrari.

 

I can see Max Verstappen unburdening himself without thinking or realising the consequences. But Jos, a few weeks later, saying the same shows a pattern IMO where they are piling pressure on the FIA to deal with Ferrari's cheating as the Verstappen's prepare for 2020 and a possible title challenge. In the past, Bernie allowed such things to be swept under the rug. Benetton got away with cheating in 1994 because fans were fed up with McLaren and Williams taking every title since 1984 and Bernie needed another top team to add some much needed flavour. I can see Liberty and FIA trying the same again as Hamilton dominates and people are gagging for a real challenge. Red Bull's and Ferrari's challenge this year certainly injected some much needed drama in the season....

 

Jos Verstappen publicly calling out Ferrari and the FIA forces the FIA to act, however reluctantly....After all, it was only after RB and Mercedes went public that the FIA acted with some TD's.


Edited by taran, Yesterday, 13:20.


#2563 SenorSjon

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Posted Yesterday, 13:25

I have a feeling Verstappen and Marko are very focal, to avoid atraction to te fact, the red bull out of nowhere was the car to beat the last part of the year

 

Just like last year? And why didn't it work after the summer break?



#2564 ARTGP

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Posted Yesterday, 14:13

No.

Ferrari have always been able to get away with cheating because the FIA protects them for commercial reasons. There is a reason they are called the Ferrari International Assistance....

 

If necessary, they will even re-interpret their own rules to absolve Ferrari (1999, barge boards). The recent fuel issue is yet another obvious case where the penalty was laughable because it was Ferrari.

 

I can see Max Verstappen unburdening himself without thinking or realising the consequences. But Jos, a few weeks later, saying the same shows a pattern IMO where they are piling pressure on the FIA to deal with Ferrari's cheating as the Verstappen's prepare for 2020 and a possible title challenge. In the past, Bernie allowed such things to be swept under the rug. Benetton got away with cheating in 1994 because fans were fed up with McLaren and Williams taking every title since 1984 and Bernie needed another top team to add some much needed flavour. I can see Liberty and FIA trying the same again as Hamilton dominates and people are gagging for a real challenge. Red Bull's and Ferrari's challenge this year certainly injected some much needed drama in the season....

 

Jos Verstappen publicly calling out Ferrari and the FIA forces the FIA to act, however reluctantly....After all, it was only after RB and Mercedes went public that the FIA acted with some TD's.

 

 

I don't see how this relates. In most of the cases I listed, other teams discovered the "secret" and let it out (going around the FIA so that FIA could not cover it up)

 

This is about Mercedes and RB claiming to know something, but not letting the specific details out (which means all they really have is speculation). In the past, when teams really knew something fishy, they went around the FIA and they exposed it. All RB and Merc have done is speculate, but they have never documented any specific designs, engineering drawings, memo's, documents, or photographs that prove anything....

 

Do you think Merc and RB figured out how the power unit works in great detail, sent it to the FIA and sat silently while the assisted Ferrari to cover it up? I don't think RB is capable of that kind of silence. Merc? Well it's possible they wanted to wait to use their trump card to get Ferrari wiped out of WCC in Monza next year if Ferrari has a better car :lol: . Who knows.


Edited by ARTGP, Yesterday, 14:16.


#2565 taran

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Posted Yesterday, 14:39

We're talking about why the Verstappen's are so publicly vocal about Ferrari cheating. I think we all agree that Ferrari isn't pleased about being called out so publicly and that this might have repercussions down the line. So why do it?

 

As I said, I can see Max say it in the heat of the moment. But Jos saying it too regarding the weight issue?

That IMO seems to be deliberate and thus has a reason.

The only reason I can think of is to shame the FIA into acting so 2020 will be a fair contest.



#2566 FullOppositeLock

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Posted Yesterday, 15:39

We're talking about why the Verstappen's are so publicly vocal about Ferrari cheating. I think we all agree that Ferrari isn't pleased about being called out so publicly and that this might have repercussions down the line. So why do it?

 

As I said, I can see Max say it in the heat of the moment. But Jos saying it too regarding the weight issue?

That IMO seems to be deliberate and thus has a reason.

The only reason I can think of is to shame the FIA into acting so 2020 will be a fair contest.

 

 

I think to understand why Jos said what he said (which was hardly anything in the first place) you have to understand the context in which it was said. Jos was skyped in into a sports talk show, when our moronic race commentator Olav Mol was explaining to us numpties that Ferrari were probably in the clear because there are no clear rules relating to fuel amounts (wrong), that the technical directive was issued to give the FIA additional checks (wrong), that the outcome of such a check is thus not against the regulations (wrong) and that Ferrari claimed it was a miscalculation (wrong) and that the 50k fine for a simple miscalculation could be seen as FIA putting its foot down.

 

At this point Jos understandably had heard quite enough nonsense in such a short timeframe, and intervened that Olav knows as well as anybody that 4.88kgs of fuel is not a miscalculation, because taking that additional amount of fuel represents a 0.15s per lap performance loss. He also said he would leave it at that because it's a very sensitive topic in F1 at the moment. It all looked to me like Jos simply wanted to set the record straight on Mol's bullshit trip and was very refrained in his comments. Of course his comment has been picked up by the written media to look as if he was aggressively accusing Ferrari of cheating, but he never went even close to that. All he said was he can't believe a simple miscalculation was the reason for the difference in fuel between what Ferrari claimed was in the car and what FIA (supposedly) found in the car while checking. I'm 100% in agreement with Jos on that.



#2567 ARTGP

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Posted Yesterday, 16:40

We're talking about why the Verstappen's are so publicly vocal about Ferrari cheating. I think we all agree that Ferrari isn't pleased about being called out so publicly and that this might have repercussions down the line. So why do it?

 

As I said, I can see Max say it in the heat of the moment. But Jos saying it too regarding the weight issue?

That IMO seems to be deliberate and thus has a reason.

The only reason I can think of is to shame the FIA into acting so 2020 will be a fair contest.

 

You raise an interesting albeit controversial point with the Ferrari International Assistance.

 

We did learn that they confiscated some fuel systems after Brazil, and that story seems to have dissapeared off the face of the earth...which is rather interesting....but I won't speculate as to why that may be...

 

My impression is that if Ferrari is cheating, the FIA have no idea how, and they didn't know what they were looking for.  Not that they found out how, and decided an elaborate cover up.

Then if Ferrari isn't cheating, FIA Still don't know what they are looking for, because the FIA is massively smaller than an F1, they just don't have the resource/expertise to deal with the rules they have created.



#2568 ferrarista

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Posted Yesterday, 20:18

https://translate.go...WsSshSumjrK52Ig
will some users survive this common sense? 😂

Edited by ferrarista, Yesterday, 20:23.