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Rivals question Ferrari's Power Unit legality


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#251 Claudius

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:54

This whole discussion about the PU:s is like ancient Sumerian cuneiforms to me.
I enjoy watching them but don’t understand what they mean...

:)

Edited by Claudius, 26 July 2018 - 10:54.


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#252 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:55

I think due to the losses and heat generated all that power from AC to DC that they would go straight from the H to the K

They do that of course.

 

But nowadays you can make AC/DC converters that are 98 - 99% efficient. 



#253 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 11:48

Scarbs:



#254 Wuzak

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 13:48

Thanks naukkis, not sure if I understand completely. Are you saying that direct flow from H to K goes via the ES?

 

The direct flow from the H to the K has to go through the control electronics.

 

From the pictures of the Mercedes engine from 2014 (engine of the year award) in this article, it appears that the MGUK and MGUH are both 3 phase AC motors, as evidenced by the 3 wires going to each.

 

This means that the "direct path" requires that the AC current is rectified to DC current, then the DC current is put into an inverter to then drive the MGUK. The inverter creates Ac current from DC input.

 

They can't drive the MGUK from the MGUH directly because of different operating speeds (125k for the H, 50k for the K), and the operating speed of the MGUK is variable.

 

Power to and from the ES is in DC, so that must go through a rectifier on the way in, and through an inverter on the way out.



#255 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 13:51

Scarbs:

 

 

Have you watched it? He talks about a blown rear wing for more downforce. Only for cornering and they barely used it (just a quick test).


Edited by Nigol, 26 July 2018 - 13:53.


#256 Wuzak

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 13:52

Interesting! This is showing fantastic medium-high speed acceleration by Ferrari but then the blue line (which I think is Merc) ultimately has the highest VMax.

That looks like a significant power advantage to me.

 

It may be a power advantage, or it may be that Ferrari go to generation mode earlier.

 

It is possible that Ferrari use the MGUH to drive the turbo on a certain section of the straight, giving an ICE power boost, gaining time over most of the straight. Then they recover the energy they used by stopping the MGUH to MGUK transfer near the end of the straight.

 

The 2 battery concept may allow them to continue deploying 120kW to the MGUK while recovering energy with the MGUH (whcih leads to lower ICE power).



#257 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 13:55

The direct flow from the H to the K has to go through the control electronics.

 

From the pictures of the Mercedes engine from 2014 (engine of the year award) in this article, it appears that the MGUK and MGUH are both 3 phase AC motors, as evidenced by the 3 wires going to each.

 

This means that the "direct path" requires that the AC current is rectified to DC current, then the DC current is put into an inverter to then drive the MGUK. The inverter creates Ac current from DC input.

 

They can't drive the MGUK from the MGUH directly because of different operating speeds (125k for the H, 50k for the K), and the operating speed of the MGUK is variable.

 

Power to and from the ES is in DC, so that must go through a rectifier on the way in, and through an inverter on the way out.

Not so, I am afraid.

 

Direct AC to AC converters with freely controllable frequency conversion in both ends have been available for years.


Edited by Jvr, 26 July 2018 - 13:58.


#258 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 13:57

Have you watched it? He talks about a blown rear wing for more downforce. Only for cornering and they barely used it (just a quick test).

Yes I have.

 

He also talks about how Ferrari is working with the rear area where the exhausts are dispensed when Merc does not.



#259 Wuzak

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 14:03

Not so, I am afraid.

 

Direct AC to AC converters with freely controllable frequency conversion in both ends have been available for years.

 

 OK, did not know that. Works between the MGUs, but between them and the ES.



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#260 redreni

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 14:10

"We rely on our competitors to have integrity"?

:rotfl:

 

It's quite simple really. The FIA enforces the rules. If anyone thinks a rival is doing something that they haven't thought of, they should work out what it is and do it themselves and/or seek clarification from Charlie. If anyone thinks their rivals are cheating they should protest.

 

There really is no need to skirt around the libel laws and start questioning people's integrity. I don't think integrity is the F1 teams' strongest suit.



#261 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 14:19

 OK, did not know that. Works between the MGUs, but between them and the ES.

Obviously not.

 

But as I said earlier, the efficiency of those AC/DC converters is nowadays up to 98 - 99%.



#262 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 14:21

"We rely on our competitors to have integrity"?

:rotfl:

 

It's quite simple really. The FIA enforces the rules. If anyone thinks a rival is doing something that they haven't thought of, they should work out what it is and do it themselves and/or seek clarification from Charlie. If anyone thinks their rivals are cheating they should protest.

 

There really is no need to skirt around the libel laws and start questioning people's integrity. I don't think integrity is the F1 teams' strongest suit.

Where is this pearl from?



#263 FrontWing

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 14:35

Not a Ferrari fan, but I've got to hand it to them, they are knocking it out of the park with their updates leaving other teams scratching their heads. It's very impressive and not the Ferrari of old.

Merc seem utterly clueless to what they're doing.

#264 robefc

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 14:38

"We rely on our competitors to have integrity"?

:rotfl:

 

It's quite simple really. The FIA enforces the rules. If anyone thinks a rival is doing something that they haven't thought of, they should work out what it is and do it themselves and/or seek clarification from Charlie. If anyone thinks their rivals are cheating they should protest.

 

There really is no need to skirt around the libel laws and start questioning people's integrity. I don't think integrity is the F1 teams' strongest suit.

 

From an interview I saw with Toto isn't he basically saying that the cars are so complex it would be easy enough for a team to break the rules without being detected by the FIA?



#265 MonkeySpin

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 14:39

As soon as they look faster and Hamilton is not coming 2nd from the back, or 1st from 14th I will start to become impressed with the updates.



#266 Tiakumosan

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 15:08

Can we expect Mercedes/Renault hiring someone from FIA, like Renault did with Budkowski, to know Ferrari's secret?

#267 xtremeclock

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 16:31

Can we expect Mercedes/Renault hiring someone from FIA, like Renault did with Budkowski, to know Ferrari's secret?

 

After all the drama that surrounded the hiring of Budkowski I thought the people with access to sensitive information are now working under long term contracts.


Edited by xtremeclock, 26 July 2018 - 16:31.


#268 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 17:03

It may be a power advantage, or it may be that Ferrari go to generation mode earlier.

 

It is possible that Ferrari use the MGUH to drive the turbo on a certain section of the straight, giving an ICE power boost, gaining time over most of the straight. Then they recover the energy they used by stopping the MGUH to MGUK transfer near the end of the straight.

 

The 2 battery concept may allow them to continue deploying 120kW to the MGUK while recovering energy with the MGUH (whcih leads to lower ICE power).

 

No it's not, because a) the turbo is already driven by the exhaust and b) fuel flow is limited so there's nothing to gain by driving the turbo faster.



#269 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 17:04

Yes I have.

 

He also talks about how Ferrari is working with the rear area where the exhausts are dispensed when Merc does not.

 

Yeah for downforce reasons, also they have only tested it and its not part of the controversy.



#270 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 17:15

No it's not, because a) the turbo is already driven by the exhaust and b) fuel flow is limited so there's nothing to gain by driving the turbo faster.

The ES powers the 'K' at 120kW and also 'H' which reduces back pressure on the ICE increasing ICE output.  This mode of operation increases peak hp via the ICE at the cost of efficiency (no 'H' to 'K' exhaust energy transfer).


Edited by OO7, 26 July 2018 - 18:53.


#271 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 17:22

The ES powers the 'K' at 120kW and also 'H' which reduces pack pressure on the ICE increasing ICE output.  This mode of operation increases peak hp via the ICE at the cost of efficiency (no 'H' to 'K' exhaust energy transfer).

 

 

Can't follow. Care to elaborate?



#272 Jvr

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 17:54

Can't follow. Care to elaborate?

Basically operation of a turbo without any loss of power from the ICE due to exhaust pressure spinning the turbo.



#273 R Soul

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 18:15

In F1 you know something is good when other people in the sport suggest it's illegal.



#274 Nigol

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 18:19

Basically operation of a turbo without any loss of power from the ICE due to exhaust pressure spinning the turbo.


And how is this a response to my Original statement? 🧐

#275 Fatgadget

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 18:23

In F1 you know something is good when other people in the sport suggest it's illegal.

Benneton hidden traction control?! :p



#276 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 18:54

Basically operation of a turbo without any loss of power from the ICE due to exhaust pressure spinning the turbo.

Not only that, but power from the ICE will actually increase which is the benefit.



#277 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 19:01

Can't follow. Care to elaborate?

In the described mode of operation the waste-gates are opened and the ICE functions like supercharged engine.  Back pressure on the cylinders is no longer present, because the waste-gates are open and the turbine (now powered by the 'H') is seen as less of a blockage.


Edited by OO7, 26 July 2018 - 19:47.


#278 andyz

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 19:18

In the described mode of operation the waste-gates are opened and the ICE functions like supercharged engine.  Back pressure on the cylinders is no longer present, because the waste-gates are open and the turbine (now powered by the 'H') is seen a less of a blockage.

Exactly.  Since right then it actually is a supercharged ICE.  Very well explained, thank You!!! :up:


Edited by andyz, 26 July 2018 - 19:41.


#279 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 19:37

Could there be a supercharger mode with even less back pressure? If the waste gate remains closed, the H is driven by the ES at a speed higher than needed and a valve somewhere on the inlet reduces the pressure back to normal levels, this could suck the exhaust gases out of the combustion chamber.

Edited by thegforcemaybewithyou, 26 July 2018 - 19:38.


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#280 andyz

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 19:59

Could there be a supercharger mode with even less back pressure? If the waste gate remains closed, the H is driven by the ES at a speed higher than needed and a valve somewhere on the inlet reduces the pressure back to normal levels, this could suck the exhaust gases out of the combustion chamber.

Might be possible, but the exhaust turbine then needs new blade profile, from "windmill-profile" to "propeller-profile".

Maybe it would not work very well, anyway it would ruin the normal exhaust gas driven turbo function.



#281 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 20:51

Might be possible, but the exhaust turbine then needs new blade profile, from "windmill-profile" to "propeller-profile".
Maybe it would not work very well, anyway it would ruin the normal exhaust gas driven turbo function.


It depends partly on whether the turbine is centrifugal or axial flow. Anyone know the details?

Centrifugal impellers are easier to reverse and turn into pumps because they rely more on the profile of the ducting.

Axial flow turbines in small applications tend to be impulse designs (“windmill” as you call them) and tend not to work well as pumps. Larger applications, such as aircraft engines use impulse-reaction blades which would be less inefficient if turned into pumps but work best with the larger flows. Only the largest turbines use pure reaction blades.

It would certainly be interesting if Ferrari are using the turbine to actively lower the back pressure from the engine. I’m only really familiar with gas turbines, which are very sensitive to back pressure and too little is just as bad as too much. I don’t know how a piston engine would react to that.

#282 OO7

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 20:59

My understanding is that axial flow turbines lack the necessary efficiency to be used in F1, so all PU manufacturers are using centrifugal designs.



#283 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 21:06

That’s what I suspected, as most turbochargers on car engine size applications are centrifugal. So it could potentially be used for a bit of suction. Whether that does anything useful is outside my area of expertise.

#284 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 21:23

I now remember that Rosberg mentioned on RTL that the Ferrari secret has something to do with directing more air through the engine. So, maybe that's really the explanation.

#285 Talisman

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 21:43

Its prwtty amazing that no team has figured out what ferrari are doing. There is one thing to know the the area the team is strong and another to know how but at the moment it sounds like they do t even know either and if they are they are keeping it close to their chest


I haven’t read the full thread but Honda describes this technique of charging the battery via the MGUH by fluctuating it’s frequency very rapidly. They introduced it in Spa or Monza last year and believed they were the last manufacturer to introduce it. I think the interview I read showed Honda believed their rivals had such systems from the start of the 2017 season.

The bit about not using the MGUH to charge during acceleration hence maximising ICE output is completely new to me though.

#286 Wuzak

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 22:31

My understanding is that axial flow turbines lack the necessary efficiency to be used in F1, so all PU manufacturers are using centrifugal designs.

 

It's not efficiency that is the problem, but pressure ratio.

 

Pressure ratio is the ratio of the pressure of the outlet to the pressure of the inlet. 

 

For an axial compressor stage the pressure ratio is in the range from 1 to 2, and mostly in the 1 to 1.5 range. To get the desired pressure ratio requires multiple stages, which are not allowed.

 

The current compressors are running at pressure ratios of around 3.5 to 4, maybe higher.



#287 Wuzak

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 22:35

Centrifugal impellers are easier to reverse and turn into pumps because they rely more on the profile of the ducting.

 

Yes, but reversing them means reversing the flow. So instead of the exhaust entering the outside and leaving the middle, the air would enter the middle and exit the outside. So it would be pushing against the exhaust, not drawing through.



#288 andyz

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 04:48

Yes, but reversing them means reversing the flow. So instead of the exhaust entering the outside and leaving the middle, the air would enter the middle and exit the outside. So it would be pushing against the exhaust, not drawing through.

True ofcourse.  As I thought the exhaust side does NOT work well as a suction device.

But have a look at this Ferrari patent!

 

This explains much:

 

“Method to control an electrically-operated turbocharger in a supercharged internal combustion engine”

 

https://www.whichcar...n-of-the-future


Edited by andyz, 27 July 2018 - 06:09.


#289 Nigol

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:12

In the described mode of operation the waste-gates are opened and the ICE functions like supercharged engine.  Back pressure on the cylinders is no longer present, because the waste-gates are open and the turbine (now powered by the 'H') is seen as less of a blockage.

 

Thanks for the explanation! My bad for letting the obvious typo confuse me.

 

What are typical numbers for the losses?

 

@andyz Nice find, also very recent article.


Edited by Nigol, 27 July 2018 - 07:12.


#290 Nigol

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:17

Exactly.  Since right then it actually is a supercharged ICE.  Very well explained, thank You!!! :up:

 

Thinking about it, it's NOT like a supercharged ICE because the energy to compress the air is not coming from the ICE itself.



#291 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:33

Yes, but reversing them means reversing the flow. So instead of the exhaust entering the outside and leaving the middle, the air would enter the middle and exit the outside. So it would be pushing against the exhaust, not drawing through.


Yeah you’re right. As soon as you start driving it it’s driving to pump air back up the exhaust.

I’m confident we can knock this one on the head then.

#292 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 07:35

Thinking about it, it's NOT like a supercharged ICE because the energy to compress the air is not coming from the ICE itself.


In fairness, supercharging doesn’t define where the power for the compressor comes from. Typically it is driven from the engine’s crankshaft, or there’s the special kinda of supercharger driven by a turbine in the engine exhaust, a turbo-supercharger or turbocharger as we tend to call it. But an electrically driven compressor would still be classified as a supercharger.

#293 andyz

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:09

In fairness, supercharging doesn’t define where the power for the compressor comes from. Typically it is driven from the engine’s crankshaft, or there’s the special kinda of supercharger driven by a turbine in the engine exhaust, a turbo-supercharger or turbocharger as we tend to call it. But an electrically driven compressor would still be classified as a supercharger.

Exactly.

 

Everybody, please read the whole:

 

https://www.whichcar...n-of-the-future

 

Here a part of it:

 

"The compressor is physically divorced from the turbine, and is instead powered by an electric motor – much like the electric superchargers in the Bentley Bentayga, Audi SQ7 and AMG CLS53.

 

The  turbine  remains bolted to the exhaust manifold,  but it now drives a generator that sends  charge to a battery, which can either store the energy recouped by the turbine or send it to the compressor’s motor to create boost.

The beauty of Ferrari’s system is that it results in a turbocharger setup that behaves like no other turbo.

Even if there’s not enough exhaust gas flow to spool up the turbine – like at low engine speeds

– the stored energy in the battery can be sent to the compressor to spin it up and start producing boost pressure, without having to also spin the turbine as well. Turbo lag would be a thing of the past.

And the ability to store energy from the spinning turbine when boost isn’t needed is a genuine innovation, as are the packaging possibilities unlocked by the clever arrangement. While the turbine still needs to remain as close as possible to the exhaust ports, the compressor unit can be placed anywhere in the engine bay. Inlet plumbing can thus be shortened as air no longer needs to go down into the bowels of the engine bay to be compressed, resulting in a further improvement in throttle response, not to mention reduced weight."

 

This (if Ferrari is now using something similar) might explain the very good starts.  No turbo lag.  Also easier to cool the compressor!


Edited by andyz, 27 July 2018 - 08:10.


#294 redreni

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:22

From an interview I saw with Toto isn't he basically saying that the cars are so complex it would be easy enough for a team to break the rules without being detected by the FIA?

 

I expect they're all breaking the rules, then. To the maximum extent possible without being detected by the FIA.

 

These things cannot be governed by integrity because the entrants might possess that quality in varying degrees. Even if you assume they had some integrity to begin with, that gets undermined very quickly by the suspicion that they all have, that their rivals are pushing things that little bit further than they are.



#295 peroa

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:27

Exactly.

 

Everybody, please read the whole:

 

https://www.whichcar...n-of-the-future

 

Here a part of it:

 

"The compressor is physically divorced from the turbine, and is instead powered by an electric motor – much like the electric superchargers in the Bentley Bentayga, Audi SQ7 and AMG CLS53.

 

The  turbine  remains bolted to the exhaust manifold,  but it now drives a generator that sends  charge to a battery, which can either store the energy recouped by the turbine or send it to the compressor’s motor to create boost.

The beauty of Ferrari’s system is that it results in a turbocharger setup that behaves like no other turbo.

Even if there’s not enough exhaust gas flow to spool up the turbine – like at low engine speeds

– the stored energy in the battery can be sent to the compressor to spin it up and start producing boost pressure, without having to also spin the turbine as well. Turbo lag would be a thing of the past.

And the ability to store energy from the spinning turbine when boost isn’t needed is a genuine innovation, as are the packaging possibilities unlocked by the clever arrangement. While the turbine still needs to remain as close as possible to the exhaust ports, the compressor unit can be placed anywhere in the engine bay. Inlet plumbing can thus be shortened as air no longer needs to go down into the bowels of the engine bay to be compressed, resulting in a further improvement in throttle response, not to mention reduced weight."

 

This (if Ferrari is now using something similar) might explain the very good starts.  No turbo lag.  Also easier to cool the compressor!

Isn't this used in production cars for some time now? Doesn't BMW have a third electro turbo? I thought they might be doing something like it ...


Edited by peroa, 27 July 2018 - 08:29.


#296 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:36

Exactly.
 
Everybody, please read the whole:
 
https://www.whichcar...n-of-the-future
 
Here a part of it:
 
"The compressor is physically divorced from the turbine, and is instead powered by an electric motor – much like the electric superchargers in the Bentley Bentayga, Audi SQ7 and AMG CLS53.
 
The  turbine  remains bolted to the exhaust manifold,  but it now drives a generator that sends  charge to a battery, which can either store the energy recouped by the turbine or send it to the compressor’s motor to create boost.
The beauty of Ferrari’s system is that it results in a turbocharger setup that behaves like no other turbo.
Even if there’s not enough exhaust gas flow to spool up the turbine – like at low engine speeds
– the stored energy in the battery can be sent to the compressor to spin it up and start producing boost pressure, without having to also spin the turbine as well. Turbo lag would be a thing of the past.
And the ability to store energy from the spinning turbine when boost isn’t needed is a genuine innovation, as are the packaging possibilities unlocked by the clever arrangement. While the turbine still needs to remain as close as possible to the exhaust ports, the compressor unit can be placed anywhere in the engine bay. Inlet plumbing can thus be shortened as air no longer needs to go down into the bowels of the engine bay to be compressed, resulting in a further improvement in throttle response, not to mention reduced weight."
 
This (if Ferrari is now using something similar) might explain the very good starts.  No turbo lag.  Also easier to cool the compressor!


And people say there’s no road application for the MGU-H. Back in 2014 I occasionally called it an electric supercharger or turbocharger because I felt it got across what it was better.

#297 Nigol

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:38

Exactly.

 

Everybody, please read the whole:

 

https://www.whichcar...n-of-the-future

 

Here a part of it:

 

"The compressor is physically divorced from the turbine, and is instead powered by an electric motor – much like the electric superchargers in the Bentley Bentayga, Audi SQ7 and AMG CLS53.

 

The  turbine  remains bolted to the exhaust manifold,  but it now drives a generator that sends  charge to a battery, which can either store the energy recouped by the turbine or send it to the compressor’s motor to create boost.

The beauty of Ferrari’s system is that it results in a turbocharger setup that behaves like no other turbo.

Even if there’s not enough exhaust gas flow to spool up the turbine – like at low engine speeds

– the stored energy in the battery can be sent to the compressor to spin it up and start producing boost pressure, without having to also spin the turbine as well. Turbo lag would be a thing of the past.

And the ability to store energy from the spinning turbine when boost isn’t needed is a genuine innovation, as are the packaging possibilities unlocked by the clever arrangement. While the turbine still needs to remain as close as possible to the exhaust ports, the compressor unit can be placed anywhere in the engine bay. Inlet plumbing can thus be shortened as air no longer needs to go down into the bowels of the engine bay to be compressed, resulting in a further improvement in throttle response, not to mention reduced weight."

 

This (if Ferrari is now using something similar) might explain the very good starts.  No turbo lag.  Also easier to cool the compressor!

 

Can't see anything to new here tbh other than they can drive the compressor seperately. Teams were driving the turbo eletrically at low revs since 2014, so this does not explain the good starts.

 

I can see why using the MGUH to drive the turbo instead of using the exhaust can have positive impact on ICE power. But is it that much and does explain the mighty accerleration (equivalent to ~38hp more) at high speed? I very much doubt it. Also that would mean they have enough energy for a whole qualifying lap and then some.



#298 Nigol

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:42

In fairness, supercharging doesn’t define where the power for the compressor comes from. Typically it is driven from the engine’s crankshaft, or there’s the special kinda of supercharger driven by a turbine in the engine exhaust, a turbo-supercharger or turbocharger as we tend to call it. But an electrically driven compressor would still be classified as a supercharger.

 

Fair enough!



#299 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:44

Can't see anything to new here tbh other than they can drive the compressor seperately. Teams were driving the turbo eletrically at low revs since 2014, so this does not explain the good starts.

I can see why using the MGUH to drive the turbo instead of using the exhaust can have positive impact on ICE power. But is it that much and does explain the mighty accerleration (equivalent to ~38hp more) at high speed? I very much doubt it. Also that would mean they have enough energy for a whole qualifying lap and then some.

Did we ever actually determine that that “mighty” acceleration was not just from having a lower downforce set up? It all seemed to come from a rather dubious analysis of the Hangar Straight.

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#300 Nigol

Nigol
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  • 2,098 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 27 July 2018 - 08:48

It's not seen everytime but only on occasions like qualifying laps or restarts, so can't be a low downforce setup. It is reported to be seen since Austria btw.