126 replies to this topic

[karl100589]

I was thinking earlier today about ITV's Formula One coverage. For all the ridicule the coverage gets these days we have to remember their early coverage was well ahead of what the BBC were providing pre 1997. Jim Rosenthal was a solid anchor whose knowledge of the sport improved greatly as the years went on, Martin Brundle was a natural in the commentary booth and technical features were given broadcasting time and help improve an understanding of the sport to the casuals.

 

By the time 2008 rolled around these days were long gone, and the sport's return to the BBC was seen as a universal blessing by most fans. My question today is what was the moment that made you 'lose' ITV as a broadcaster; the 'shark-jumping moment when you realised the coverage was never going to return to the high-levels of it's early years?

I put it down to a few key moments:

 

• James Allen; Commentator - While he did a decent job substituting for Murray in 2001. James lacked the charisma to sell the sport in the way Murray did; instead relying on feigned excitement which came across as false and desperate to 'create a moment' (ie Jenson winning Hungary 2006).
• San Marino 2005 - Adverts had always been a bug-bare during the ITV era, but San Marino 2005 was the moment that made people sit up and realise how bad it was. One of the most dramatic finishes in the sport for many years was interrupted by Raw Winstone telling us about the latest betting odds. With the decision to cut to an advert three laps before the end of the race, ITV showed it had put it's financial interests over those of the fans, and created a rift which ultimately they never recovered from.
• Dumbing down - More of a gradual switch then a particular moment. ITV's early coverage, while flawed, had much to enjoy for the hardcore fan, but as the years went on and ratings fell those segments became few and far between and instead sacrificed for a more tabloid approach. Who can forget Beverley Turner's short-lived stint as F1's lifestyle correspondent or interviews with Jarno Trulli's chef?
• Lewis-mania - The arguable culmination of moment 3 led to number 4. After years of the Schumacher era and flashes of brilliance from Button and Coulthard, Britain gained a new Formula One star in Lewis Hamilton, who jumped from his ART GP2 car into serious title contention right off the bat. People knew Lewis could be a star, but sadly the people who knew this most were ITV. In one quick swoop, ITV sacrificed their credibility to instead become the Lewis show; garish, jingoistic and with an almost scornful attitude to anyone who didn't buy into the Hamilton hype train. James Allen was turned overnight from a respected journalist into a glorified cheerleader; the cries of "Senna-esque" still echoing around Monaco to this day. 

[messy]

Replacing Murray Walker with that dreadful dullard James Allen.

I quite like Allen's writing these days, but I thought for TV he just came across horrendously badly. He was off-puttingly pious, smug, know-all, charisma void and I found zero chemistry between him and Brundle. I think this was when I realised how important a commentator is, a bad one can really damage the whole experience.

I think the 'dumbing down' is still very much alive and well on Sky (Jesus, those skits with Johnny Herbert and co racing lawnmowers etc, Lazenby's pally pally act with the drivers, the games, the 'who has the best hairstyle' team-mate Mr and Mrs sh*te, give me strength it makes me want to put my foot through the screen. I don't remember ITV being especially worse for that. The Lewis Hamilton bias - nothing like as off-putting as the Charlie Cox weekly w**kfest over 'The Doctor' on the MotoGP coverage during that same era. The Imola incident was unfortunate but an accident. So yeah, sorry James.

Edited by messy, 28 July 2018 - 20:47.

[Sterzo]

I think, karl100589, you have it pretty much right. Apologies for spoiling the thread by agreeing.

 

Adverts during the race were always going to induce rage and derision amongst the faithful.

 

Commentating is a very, very, difficult job, and that sound pundit and excellent writer James Allen showed it wasn't his strength. Replacing him in the pits with Ted Kravitz also took the programme down a notch or three.

[PlatenGlass]

I never thought much of their coverage. The BBC didn't show the whole of qualifying and started the programme about 15 minutes in, and generally didn't have much of a pre- or post- race show from what I can remember, so arguably ITV was a step up in that sense. But the quality was always poor. They had boring conversations in an isolated room with Rosenthal, Simon Taylor and Tony Jardine. Later on they went outside, but never spoke to anyone, so it might as well have been inside. But when the BBC took over again in 2009, it was the start of how it is now with them going around interviewing people and being part of the post-race action.

[Fatgadget]

Puleez give me ITV warts and all  over a behind a pay wall money grabbing SKY anyday!

[garoidb]

I didn't like James Allen as a commentator, but I do enjoy his writing. Following Murray Walker was an impossible task, though. A few years ago, they had Murray commentate (not live) on a clip of Vettel and Alonso duelling at Silverstone. He would have been over 90 at the time. The amount of urgency and excitement he conveyed almost shocked me. He has never been replaced. 

[WilliamIV]

I'd go so far as to say it was spoiling the enjoyment for me. James Allen was at the centre of the ITV problem. Fist in mouth cringeyness with his feigned excitement, worse and more blatant mistakes during the race than even Murray would make. I remember the "stop the cock" campaigns at the time.

 

And before Hamilton, it was the Jenson Button show from about 2003 onwards, really peaking from 2004-2006. Every.Damn.Show. It was like there was the Brit as the main character, then 19 other actors.

 

Even Brundle was losing objectivity with Button and then Hamilton. I remember him looking visibly offended on the 2007 Brazil grid walk when he asked Bernie who he wants to win the title today, and Bernie said Alonso. The disappointment in James Allen's voice when Kimi took the flag summed up the ITV jingoism.

 

I think that all of them (Brundle, Blundell, Allen, Jardine, Rosenthal, Goodman, Ryder) were under instructions from ITV management to do this, and it was a commercial push from the ITV higher ups. I was glad when it went back to BBC. But to answer the question, James Allen was when ITV-F1 jumped the shark. Just awful.

 

I would also say that the ITV run from the mid-2000s was the beginning of the change in narrative of Formula One, from a raw and technical sport, to the tabloid **** show narrative it has today. Whether that is all the fault of ITV-F1 or whether they were just riding the wave that society was turning towards, the ITV coverage was changing the way F1 was being presented in the UK and it hasn't been the same since.

Edited by WilliamIV, 28 July 2018 - 22:24.

[ensign14]

The first time they showed an advert break during a race.

 

And if you think that's unfair, then cutting away from the climax of the San Marino GP to show adverts.

 

Frankly, as a broadcaster, ITV is a liability.  I'd rather watch the testcard.  I genuinely can't remember the last programme (as opposed to live broadcast) I watched on ITV.  Might have been World In Action.

[ClubmanGT]

Even Brundle was losing objectivity with Button and then Hamilton. I remember him looking visibly offended on the 2007 Brazil grid walk when he asked Bernie who he wants to win the title today, and Bernie said Alonso. The disappointment in James Allen's voice when Kimi took the flag summed up the ITV jingoism.

 

Brundle's unflinching dismissal of the minute possibility McLaren could have done anything wrong with Spygate. Never been able to take him seriously as an objective observer since. He simply isn't. And there was never any 'actually it was a lot more serious than I thought' - we all just carried on and pretended that everyone still had some journalistic credibility.

 

As a non-British audience, the constant updates on British drivers was tedious and we'd be hearing about Button circulating in 17th rather than Schumacher up front. Anything to avoid talking about Schumacher or putting someone in a position where they may have to say something complimentary.

 

We still hear lots about Schumacher's bad days even though he's now a few croutons short of a salad, but very little about how some drivers couldn't even set times if the 'balance wasn't there' or any other shortcoming of a British driver. Look at how much of a free pass Palmer got. 

Edited by ClubmanGT, 28 July 2018 - 22:56.

[P123]

Ad breaks during the races...... and then the inevitable screw up missing the closing laps of the 2005 San Marino GP.

That and the fact that they were sometimes back at a studio in the UK in order to save money. Summed up how rank ITV are.

Plus they used to slate anybody who made an error whilst eulogising another Ferrari Sunday drive where they spent 2/3rds of the race coasting. Jardine the main culprit for that.

I'm not sure I'd include their pro-Brit stance, as that isn't anything unusual compared to Spanish or German coverage. And Hamilton was a big story- a rookie, on the way to win the WDC? Yes, they laid it on very thick, but they already did that with JB.

[ClubmanGT]

I'm not sure I'd include their pro-Brit stance, as that isn't anything unusual compared to Spanish or German coverage. And Hamilton was a big story- a rookie, on the way to win the WDC? Yes, they laid it on very thick, but they already did that with JB.

 

I mean yes, it's a British production, but it was really jarring for non-Brits and it must have just sucked anyone who wasn't solely tuning in each race to see how DC or JB went. 

 

It also massively tainted any sense of proper coverage of the Spygate drama, because a British team would never do something like that and it was all a political witch-hunt instigated by Ferrari, you see. 

[JHSingo]

For me, it was definitely Lewis-mania. I still remember how ridiculous their broadcasts became from 2007. If you took a shot every time they mentioned Lewis, or praised Lewis, you'd be dead from alcohol poisoning within the hour. It was like you'd tuned in to watch Lewis race 21 other guys, none of whom ever got more than a passing mention, rather than an F1 race. 

 

It was partly the reason why I never became a Lewis fan. I find constant hype like that insufferable, and it's the same deal with Verstappen. When you're constantly being reminded how good one guy is, pretty much to the exclusion of all others, I just find it really satisfying when they're beaten. I found myself rooting against Lewis in those early days just because I wanted James Allen and Steve Rider to shut the **** up about him for once. 

 

So yeah, for me, that above everything else mentioned. Thank goodness BBC took a much more balanced approach, which has been carried on by C4. I don't care for nationalism in a sport like F1.

Edited by JHSingo, 29 July 2018 - 01:07.

[secessionman]

I'd never quite understood how somebody could feel so irate during the Bill Grundy/Sex Pistols interview in 1976 that they put their own foot through their own TV set.... That was, until, I watched Imola 2005 on ITV. The one and only time I complained to a TV station (managed to avoid kicking the telly in though).

 

I did not receive a reply from ITV but I remember reading their statement that they were contractually obliged to provide 5? ad breaks per race and they had held off as long as they could. It could be delayed no longer (other than at the end of those 3 laps). The production team were so embarrassed they immediately replayed those last three laps after the ad break but the result was by then known, and the replay was somewhat pointless as the damage had been done.

 

Having said all that, the Hamilton mania probably was the nadir and, as pointed out by JHSingo above, made it rather difficult to feel any love for him, from those who love a sporting competition rather than a Brit Fest. His personality is such that if you didn't love him in 07/08 you probably still haven't warmed to him by now. The same jingoism was experienced during London 2012 to an appalling extent so it wasn't just this one episode.

[CoolBreeze]

I'm not sure if this makes any sense, but no one...can go down the level of that david croft bugger. His constant screaming is just annoying at the start 'lights out' cue

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Pretty much all the comments so far are valid. Does anyone remember though either Canada 2007 or 2008 though when Steve Rider came on air for the start of the race broadcast and basically said "we make no apologies for focussing so much on Lewis Hamilton" or words to that effect, basically admitting that it was the Lewis Hamilton show and they weren't sorry for pushing that? That for me said it all about how far they took things.

 

Oh and also apart from the adverts, ITV minimising the screen to tell us that Corrie or the news would follow the race, meaning some races you wouldn't even get the podium ceremony, let alone any post race discussion. They also shoved the prime time qualfying sessions onto ITV4 sometimes, or in some cases, just didn't bother showing them live at all and just dumped them on at say 10.30pm or something, hours after it'd finished.

[kapow]

Re: Nationalistic jingoism

Were ITV (and are Sky) any different to how the coverage is in other countries?

Is the Italian coverage dominated by Ferrari? The Spanish by Alonso and co?

[djparky]

James Allen used to jabber on all the time about his beloved Ferrari and Michael Schumacher, which drove me nuts, but it became the Lewis Hamilton show in 2007, which made it impossible to watch. Sky F1 is very similar, with its constant need to dissect the latest issues affecting Hamilton, and big up the tiniest of problems into a drama

[noriaki]

Re: Nationalistic jingoism

Were ITV (and are Sky) any different to how the coverage is in other countries?

Is the Italian coverage dominated by Ferrari? The Spanish by Alonso and co?

I never watched ITV's broadcasts but foreign broadcasts are generally well more nationalistic than Sky or even C4. And generally much worse in quality.

Hence I as a foreign viewer never minded the Jolyon Palmer interviews, Paul di Resta updates from P13 or the open support for British drivers. As long as they still try to remain objective and don't start broadcasting those silly conspiracy theories against the British drivers, it's all cool for me.

[F1matt]

I didn’t have a problem with ITV dropping Murray Walker, I realise he is a national saint and I will be hunted down and burned at the stake for this but he was a woeful commentator who was celebrated for getting things wrong, what other sport would put up with that? As for patriotism he was waving the union flag from the coms box thinking we were still at war. The problem ITV had was trying to replace this national treasure, they must have told them to play up to the audience.

[pacificquay]

The San Marino ad break criticism is slightly unfair, as I recall it was a cock up rather than an editorial decision.

The only thing that really incensed me was the pro-Ferrari anti-McLaren bias displayed by Allen and Rosenthal in particular during the Hakkinen/Schumacher battle of 1998.

[MargaretM37]

It was pretty terrible from the off - right from that cacophony of a theme tune. However, particular lowlights include Schumacher winning the title in an advert break and the year that the Monaco Grand Prix was presented from a boat- in stormy conditions ! One of the pundits (I forget who) had to stay off camera as he was constantly being sick, cameras fell over and the whole thing was undulating the entire time !

[Clatter]

The San Marino ad break criticism is slightly unfair, as I recall it was a cock up rather than an editorial decision.

The only thing that really incensed me was the pro-Ferrari anti-McLaren bias displayed by Allen and Rosenthal in particular during the Hakkinen/Schumacher battle of 1998.

It was a monumental cockup, but that does not make the critism unfair. It's probably the worst incident I've seen of a live sport broadcast. Totally avoidable and shows clearly why any sport that does not have natural breaks should not be put on a commercial channel, unless they are willing to show it ad free.

[Collombin]

Difficult to say it jumped the shark when it was never that good to start with. Could never stand Jim Rosenthal from his footy days, but his "Wan" Montoya wound me up no end, and there was that race in the first year (Austria?) when they managed to miss both McLarens retiring from the lead.

Edited by E.B., 29 July 2018 - 08:22.

[kapow]

Did anyone else switch over to DSF during the adverts, when it used to be available on the old analogue satellite?

[ensign14]

It's probably the worst incident I've seen of a live sport broadcast.

 

There are a couple of others I recall.

 

 

 

By one of those astonishing, unbelievable, mind-shattering coincidences, both of these were ITV as well.

[WilliamsF1Fan]

I quite liked ITV's coverage to be honest.  I found the more general articles to be interesting, I quite liked following what happened around the F1 circus, even if it was for example visiting Jarno Trulli's vineyard.  I stopped watching so much of the pre/post show coverage after they lost it, but then around the same time I gave up on analysis on a lot of sports I follow.  I also (blasphemy coming) quite liked the Moby theme tune ITV used.  Nationalism, I do not see the problem entirely.  Yes, if the comms are broadcast internationally it can be a problem but I assume that ITV's and Sky's commentators commentate first and foremost for a British audience so will inevitably show bias in that direction.  Dare I say it, their coverage also boosted the popularity of the sport for a short time due to promoting Hamilton as someone who was out of the ordinary.  I went to Silverstone for when he had his first 'home' F1 race and on the way back, had countless people at bus/taxi ranks asking how 'he' had done.  It was the only time I had random people ask me about F1.  Of course ITV wasn't perfect, but it was free to air and had a consistent pre-show build up.  I would definitely take it over the paywall we have today.

[mgs315]

In defence of James Allen I don’t think Jonathan Legard did that good a job for the BBC either.

Commentary (especially being the main commentator instead of the colour) is seriously hard.

[garoidb]

In defence of James Allen I don’t think Jonathan Legard did that good a job for the BBC either.

Commentary (especially being the main commentator instead of the colour) is seriously hard.

 

Yes, although it might be truer to say that it is a rare talent, part of which is making it sound easy. 

[Kobasmashi]

I didn’t have a problem with ITV dropping Murray Walker, I realise he is a national saint and I will be hunted down and burned at the stake for this but he was a woeful commentator who was celebrated for getting things wrong, what other sport would put up with that? As for patriotism he was waving the union flag from the coms box thinking we were still at war. The problem ITV had was trying to replace this national treasure, they must have told them to play up to the audience.

Murray retired, he wasn't dropped. You're entitled to your opinion but I think there's much more to sports commentary than reeling off a list of facts, and Murray is a perfect example of this.

[pdac]

James Allen was not Murray, but no replacement was going to be.

 

The ad breaks were annoying, but inevitable on a commercial channel. The 2005 incident prompted a re-think on their part and they did try to do a lot better after that.

 

The dumbing down of the coverage was an on-going thing. But I think this just continued onto the Hamilton mania. I also think (and this is born out with the Sky coverage) that the more Brundle felt secure in his position, the more important he felt and the less objective he became.

[Clatter]

James Allen was not Murray, but no replacement was going to be.

The ad breaks were annoying, but inevitable on a commercial channel. The 2005 incident prompted a re-think on their part and they did try to do a lot better after that.

The dumbing down of the coverage was an on-going thing. But I think this just continued onto the Hamilton mania. I also think (and this is born out with the Sky coverage) that the more Brundle felt secure in his position, the more important he felt and the less objective he became.

Haven't C4 been showing the live races ad free? It can be done.

[pdac]

Haven't C4 been showing the live races ad free? It can be done.

 

I think that's because of the history of ITV -> BBC -> C4. When it was ITV, I think there was reluctant acceptance of the adverts. This became rage after that 'incident', but then calmed down again. But when it moved to BBC and they really upped the ante, So C4 were slightly painted into a corner on that one.

[Raest]

I don't think there are many commentators better than JA, surely not the Sky guy, who is annoying as hell... Having said that everyone on telly is better than the guy (Nicholls i think) who's commentating on Radio 5... God he's awful... Awful. 

Edited by Raest, 29 July 2018 - 10:39.

[Gareth]

James Allen; Commentator - While he did a decent job substituting for Murray in 2001. James lacked the charisma to sell the sport in the way Murray did; instead relying on feigned excitement which came across as false and desperate to 'create a moment' (ie Jenson winning Hungary 2006).

You'll never break him

 

 

Full video, for anyone interested: https://vimeo.com/21369667 Fun memories.

[ilferrari]

From day 1 they took a far more commercial approach than the BBC. Even Murray Walker altered his commentary style, I suspect under pressure from bosses to make it "sound exciting". For instance, he never started that "GO! GO! GO!" schtick until he worked for ITV. You will not find a BBC commentary of him doing this.

[Kobasmashi]

From day 1 they took a far more commercial approach than the BBC. Even Murray Walker altered his commentary style, I suspect under pressure from bosses to make it "sound exciting". For instance, he never started that "GO! GO! GO!" schtick until he worked for ITV. You will not find a BBC commentary of him doing this.

I think that, along with his age, is why we saw so many more murrayisms in the last few years.

[ilferrari]

James Allen was sometimes as bad as David Croft is today. The pair of them were hired to shout, dramatize and keep the attention of the lowest common denominator.

 

[Neno]

Croft is so bad. HIs voice and commentary makes it all look fake. 

[FirstnameLastname]

Their ITV-F1/Forum was delightful

[Chunkinator]

omg the jenson button hungary commentary is hilariously awful

[JHSingo]

In defence of James Allen I don’t think Jonathan Legard did that good a job for the BBC either.

Commentary (especially being the main commentator instead of the colour) is seriously hard.

 

Legard's obsession with certain words and phrases that he'd repeat during races was his main...ahem...problem. This video still makes me chuckle.

 

[midgrid]

Legard's obsession with certain words and phrases that he'd repeat during races was his main...ahem...problem. This video still makes me chuckle.

Down the hill,
And towards turn one,
Jenson BUTT-on,
Pushes on.

Pole for Ferrari,
Is going to be tough,
Here comes Fernando,
IS THIS GOOD ENOUGH?!

Webber is flying,
But so too is Vettel,
As Nico Rosberg,
Is joining the battle.

THERE’S PROBLEMS THERE!
Is that a Ferrari?!
Nope, it’s actually,
Jaime Alguersuari.

SOOT-il has lost it,
And KOO-bica too!
That was the last thing
They needed to do!

I’m sorry there Martin,
You’ll just have to wait,
I’ve just been informed,
That Petrov is eighth.

Hamilton wins!
He’ll surely be happy,
But will he be champion,
Come Abby-Dabby?

...

(Not original.)

[guiporsche]

Re: Nationalistic jingoism

Were ITV (and are Sky) any different to how the coverage is in other countries?

Is the Italian coverage dominated by Ferrari? The Spanish by Alonso and co?

 

I get your point but the fact is that, unlike say Spanish or Italian coverage, English broadcasts are not watched only by English nationals because of the large number of immigrants/expats in England, but because English is spoken all over the world. A good example would be BBC World, their coverage is in English from an English standpoint but try to cater for a global audience because of historical reasons.

There's this tension in the English sports media about how they like to portray F1/Grand Prix Racing as a quintessencially national sport (rubbish if you know about the sport's history), and the reality of its joint-European continental origins, and its actual global reach. To sum it up, whether they like it or not, English media have, ethically and journalistically, the obligation to keep the bar higher than the others, if only because of their constant claims of being neutral and objective (hahahaha) - the only who constantly claim so. 

 

P.S. Personally, I do not find Italian Sky as partial as it could be, probably because there's no Italian drivers at the moment and because the first to criticise Ferrari are always the Italians themselves. 

Edited by guiporsche, 29 July 2018 - 12:40.

[secessionman]

It's also worth remembering that, in 2003, ITV cut away from this at around the 10 sec mark for an ad break. That also had me screaming at the telly for about 5 mins.

 

 

Kudos to C4 who are, after all, a commercial station. These mini Bose idents are more than bearable in the grand scheme of things, over and done in less time than one pointless start replay.

[David Lightman]

It can hardly be worse than next year when the sport shoots itself in the foot yet again with the idiotic Sky deal.

[Pete_f1]

Their ITV-F1/Forum was delightful

Yes, I was there and met a lot of nice people. I wonder where they are in their lives today

[JeePee]

Aahhh, nice cry-me-a-river topic about UK people whining about 'the worst commentry in the world' while actually they have the absolute best. BBC, Sky, whatever, it's all MILES above what other countries have to offer. Others are stuck with the likes of Kai Ebel or Jack Plooij.

 

Crofty might make a mistake here and there, but Olav Mol sometimes misses who's leading into the first corner. I'll take Croft and Brundle any day of the week above the other options.

[TheManAlive]

It's also worth remembering that, in 2003, ITV cut away from this at around the 10 sec mark for an ad break. That also had me screaming at the telly for about 5 mins.

https://www.youtube....h?v=dpesYL9iNRs

Kudos to C4 who are, after all, a commercial station. These mini Bose idents are more than bearable in the grand scheme of things, over and done in less time than one pointless start replay.

Of course they cut away from it. That idiot priest was doing his best to get hit by cars going almost 200 mph on the hanger straight. Why in earth would you want to See that?

[grandmastashi]

ITV went downhill fast from the high watermark of 1997; I actually think their faffing around with the title music and sequence constantly during their run highlighted this - it's like they never really knew what they wanted to market F1 as. 

 

They clearly tried to give their coverage it's own identity and step it on that first year from what the BBC previously offered with their set overlooking the track, Simon Taylor et al, and the love it or hate it Jamiroquai title music, but slowly but surely that was stripped back to the more simplistic approach by the early part of the century. 

 

The other thing to mention that highlighted their downward spiral: Mark Blundell, Expert Analyst - unwatchable and barely able to string a sentence together at times. 

[LBDN]

James Allen was the main irritant at the time, however having seen re-runs of races lately i find his commentating ok.

Stupid TV theme music was dire too until they stumbled across Moby - lift me up