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#1 P.Dron

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 19:49

From today's Times:

 

 

______________________________________________________________________

 

Birthdays today

___________________________________________________________________________

 

... Mario Andretti, the only American to win the Formula One world drivers' championship, 75 ...


Edited by P.Dron, 28 February 2015 - 19:50.


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#2 swintex

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 20:27

What about Pete Aron?

 

 

 

 

And Pheeel Heeel of course.



#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 20:27

Oh dear ...



#4 JtP2

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 20:52

Should that not read "only naturalised American"



#5 D28

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 21:00

Should that not read "only naturalised American"

No it shouldn't. Mario is the quintessential American, a racing icon. Happy birthday, Mario, wish you were still running!



#6 GMACKIE

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 21:06

Yep - Happy Birthday, Mario... hope you have plenty more. :up:



#7 Claudio Navonne

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 21:13

Poor Phil Hill, always underrated and forgotten ...



#8 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 21:22

Agreed. 1961 was the best year ever for US drivers, who took three of the top five places in the World Drivers' Championship.

#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 22:23

Poor Phil Hill, always underrated and forgotten ...

 

Not by everyone...    :wave:

 

DCN



#10 brucemoxon

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 02:46

Yes, Cal Carrington also had a good year in '61.

 

 

 

Bruce Moxon



#11 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 05:18

Not by everyone...    :wave:
 
DCN


Hear, hear!

Happy birthday to Mario, but Phil will always be the first, if not the only.

#12 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 08:12

What about Fangio, Fittipaldi, Piquet and Senna, already forgotten?

I guess if the rim of your plate is that big, it's difficult to see beyond...

#13 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 08:14

... and to be really nitpicking, neither Phil Hill nor Andretti ever won the Formula One World Championships...

:) :wave:

#14 Allan Lupton

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 10:21

What about Fangio, Fittipaldi, Piquet and Senna, already forgotten?

Yes, quite so, and apart from all else I am sorry that The Times has fallen for the US-english useage where "American" means "from the USofA"



#15 B Squared

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 12:48

Bruce Martin's on Mario's 75th:

http://www.foxsports...andretti-022815

#16 PCC

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 14:48

Yes, quite so, and apart from all else I am sorry that The Times has fallen for the US-english useage where "American" means "from the USofA"

And what adjective would you propose for those who are "from the USofA"?



#17 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 15:37

Bruce Martin's on Mario's 75th:

http://www.foxsports...andretti-022815

"His rookie year at Indianapolis came one year after the 1964 race that will forever be known as Black Sunday because of the God-awful double-fatality on the second lap when Dave MacDonald and Eddie Sachs burned to death in one of the most horrific crashes in auto racing history."

Another gaffe, that race was on a Saturday.



#18 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 16:20

What about Fangio, Fittipaldi, Piquet and Senna, already forgotten?I guess if the rim of your plate is that big, it's difficult to see beyond...


In common usage, people from South America (a continent) are typically described by the nation of their citizenship, as are people from European countries. In the case of the United States of America (a nation, not a continent) the common shorthand is to simply call them Americans. I don't think it has much to do with the size of "the rim of your plate."

#19 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 16:38

"His rookie year at Indianapolis came one year after the 1964 race that will forever be known as Black Sunday because of the God-awful double-fatality on the second lap when Dave MacDonald and Eddie Sachs burned to death in one of the most horrific crashes in auto racing history."
Another gaffe, that race was on a Saturday.


I watched that race on closed circuit TV. The movie theater sized screen and the poor quality of the video somehow made that crash seem all the more horrifying.

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#20 cpbell

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 18:56

... and to be really nitpicking, neither Phil Hill nor Andretti ever won the Formula One World Championships...

:) :wave:

 

Isn't that term regarded as synonymous with "World Drivrs Championship" by all but the most fastidious, though?



#21 Allan Lupton

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 19:03

And what adjective would you propose for those who are "from the USofA"?

Hard to say, but have the Canadians not solved it? They must have some generic term for the people in the next country.



#22 PCC

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 19:21

Hard to say, but have the Canadians not solved it? They must have some generic term for the people in the next country.

We do indeed. With striking originality and ingenuity, we call them "American". And we don't begrudge them the term at all, since we don't feel a strong patrimonial link to Amerigo Vespucci.



#23 D-Type

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 19:22

Isn't that term regarded as synonymous with "World Drivrs Championship" by all but the most fastidious, though?

That's why Michael said "~ really nitpicking".  

The facts are what they are.  Despite what Mr Ecclestone's organisation would like us to believe, 'Formula 1' did not start in 1950 but in 1948 and the Formula 1 World Championship was not inaugurated until 1982 when Balestre firmly claimed ownership of the Championship on behalf of the FIA during the FOCA/FISA contretemps.


Edited by D-Type, 28 March 2017 - 18:48.


#24 D28

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 19:41

Hard to say, but have the Canadians not solved it? They must have some generic term for the people in the next country.

The term American to refer to residents of USA has been in use at least 200 years, and is universally understood. In a sense it is easy to understand why. USA was the original independent nation in the Americas and thus had first digs on the term; secondly USAers or US Americans is a bit of a mouthful to use for a simple description. The nationals of the 3 North American countries are routinely described as Canadian, American and Mexican, even official treaties and documents use this terminology. Though Canadians technically are American, I have never heard this used by anyone in my lifetime; Canadians are very often mistaken for (US) Americans and called that, but they great umbrage at the practice. So in N America at least, there is no ambiguity as to who "America" refers to.

 

I cannot speak for S America, but I believe that residents there are also very clear as to who "Americans" refer to. Thus the terms Bolivians, Brazilians, and Americans are easily understood.

 

Even in motor sport terms, which concerns us here, there are plenty of examples of usage:

The original Can-Am series was run in just Canada and USA. It was thankfully not called the Can-USA series.

Dan Gurney's AAR team used the 2nd A for "American", his emblem was based on the US flag.

SCCA and ALMS series

 

Language evolves over time and common usage becomes dominant; that I believe is the case with the term 'American" 


Edited by D28, 01 March 2015 - 19:48.


#25 P.Dron

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 20:03

I lit the blue touch paper. I stood clear. Ha ha ha.



#26 h4887

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 20:41

... and to be really nitpicking, neither Phil Hill nor Andretti ever won the Formula One World Championships...

:) :wave:

According to the CVC Capital Partners web site, 'The FIA Formula 1 World Championship has taken place every year since 1950'...so there! :lol:



#27 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 21:02

Next week in Pedants' Corner ...

 

ˈkɒntrəˌvɜːsɪ or kənˈtrɒvəsɪ ?



#28 La Sarthe

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 22:33

Or should that be Pedant's Corner? :lol:



#29 D-Type

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 00:40

According to the CVC Capital Partners web site, 'The FIA Formula 1 World Championship has taken place every year since 1950'...so there! :lol:

Then they are liars aren't they!



#30 B Squared

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:04

And just last week there seemed to be this big mystery in Giraffe's "The History of TNF" thread on why the number of posters and participation on this board is down....

#31 h4887

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 11:43

Then they are liars aren't they!

Just discovered the FIA web site says the same thing!



#32 P.Dron

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 17:26

Just discovered the FIA web site says the same thing!

 

This is the Joseph Goebbels Theorem. Truth is a lie, repeated a sufficient number of times. 



#33 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 18:03

This is the Joseph Goebbels Theorem. Truth is a lie, repeated a sufficient number of times. 

There is actually no evidence that Goebbels ever said that. It's a distortion of something said in a report by the US Congress House Committee on Un-American Activities in 1946.

 

http://en.wikiquote....s#Misattributed

 

The same quote is sometimes laid at Lenin's door. But he didn't say it either.

 

But, as Maxwell Scott said in 'The Man who Shot Liberty Valance' - When the legend becomes fact - print the legend.



#34 P.Dron

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 20:33

There is actually no evidence that Goebbels ever said that. It's a distortion of something said in a report by the US Congress House Committee on Un-American Activities in 1946.

 

http://en.wikiquote....s#Misattributed

 

The same quote is sometimes laid at Lenin's door. But he didn't say it either.

 

But, as Maxwell Scott said in 'The Man who Shot Liberty Valance' - When the legend becomes fact - print the legend.

 

The fact that Goebbels may not ever have made the remark surely gives the theorem added veracity.



#35 GMACKIE

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 20:38

So...was it really Mario's bithday, then?



#36 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 20:45

So...was it really Mario's bithday, then?

Yes.

 

And anyone watching Only Connect on BBC4 at the moment will also have noted that they seem to have been unaware of the existence of Phil Hill too - although to be fair one of the members of the Chessmen did seem to know of 'another Hill' who had been World Champion apart from Graham and Damon.



#37 bradbury west

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 20:57

Yes! I saw that, Richard, and cringed. In fact their premise was counter productive using Hill father and son, since PTH and either of the others would have fitted the logic of the other same name champions. A pity, really, as it is usually a very challenging quiz
Roger Lund

#38 retriever

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Posted 02 March 2015 - 21:20

Poor Phil Hill, always underrated and forgotten ...

 

Even tonight on BBC's Channel 4's Only Connect in a question relating to Champion namesakes, the name Hill was one of the answers but reference was only made to Graham and Damon. Poor Phil Hill did not even get a mention!


Edited by retriever, 02 March 2015 - 21:25.


#39 Paulleek

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:48

Yes.

And anyone watching Only Connect on BBC4 at the moment will also have noted that they seem to have been unaware of the existence of Phil Hill too - although to be fair one of the members of the Chessmen did seem to know of 'another Hill' who had been World Champion apart from Graham and Damon.


Yes we were all shouting at the TV about it. Given that we generally give a somewhat low performance when trying to get to the answers, we took th opportunity to feel self-righteous. It didn't help that we'd all been embarrassed for the previous half hour by our attempts to answer University Challenge questions.

Edited by Paulleek, 03 March 2015 - 05:57.


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#40 opplock

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 09:28

The Times have acknowledged their error in today's "corrections and clarifications" column.   



#41 kayemod

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 09:38

The Times have acknowledged their error in today's "corrections and clarifications" column.   

 

"We stated (Birthdays today, Feb 28) that Mario Andretti was “the only American to win the Formula One world drivers’ championship”. Phil Hill was world champion in 1961."



#42 Tim Murray

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 17:41

There's some absolute bollocks in this article about Dan Gurney:

http://www.influx.co...aign=influxford

What a shame, Dan deserves better than this crap. :well:



#43 kayemod

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 18:04

There's some absolute bollocks in this article about Dan Gurney:

http://www.influx.co...aign=influxford

What a shame, Dan deserves better than this crap. :well:

 

You're right, I particularly like this little gem, real chip-on-shoulder stuff.

 

"His ultra un-European treatment of the podium toast was a Yankee two fingers to Enzo Ferrari and the other Euro snobs of the sport that has since stuck with F1."

 

I'd say that "bollocks" was rather too kind, but I don't think there's anyone on TNF who doesn't rate Dan very highly indeed.



#44 RobertE

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 19:29

The Times, as a newspaper, is now utterly hopeless. They printed an obituary of Brian Lister which was simply awful. I presume the same department is responsible for the item which Peter drew to our attention.

 

I wrote a letter of rebuke, to which they have yet to respond...

 

Gaaagh!



#45 D28

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 19:43

Yes incredible such nonsense could see print given the ease of fact checking today. As for the first American to win at Le Mans probably Luigi Chinetti (1949) would be a good candidate, depending on when his citizenship became final. If not he, then certainly Phil Hill won in 1958 and there is no argument about his nationality. This seems to confirm the comments about Phil Hill sort of falling through the cracks in some of these stories. Actually Hill would have won 3 times before Gurney managed to. Then there is Masten Gregory who won for Chinetti (NART) in 1965. I may have missed some others.



#46 elansprint72

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 19:45

I blame Rupert Murdoch.



#47 kayemod

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 19:54

The Times, as a newspaper, is now utterly hopeless. They printed an obituary of Brian Lister which was simply awful. I presume the same department is responsible for the item which Peter drew to our attention.

 

I wrote a letter of rebuke, to which they have yet to respond...

 

Gaaagh!

 

All true, but from what I've seen, the other newspapers are worse, The Telegraph these days is a shadow of its former self. A very dear friend of mine died a few years ago, you wouldn't have heard of him, but he was eminent in his field. He got half a page obit in both The Times and Daily Telegraph, both were clearly written by someone who never knew him. The Times got his school and WW2 RAF career wrong and credited him with a totally fictional university degree. So much for fact checking, how does this kind of thing get into a 'serious' paper? If Phil had been alive to read it, he'd have been most amused.



#48 Tim Murray

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 19:55

I may have missed some others.


Carroll Shelby in 1959, and (probably) Ed Hugus in 1965.


Edited by Tim Murray, 05 March 2015 - 20:01.


#49 D28

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 20:00

Carroll Shelby in 1959

Of course 1 year after P Hill. Any thoughts on who would have been the first American?



#50 P.Dron

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 20:03

The Times, as a newspaper, is now utterly hopeless.

 

I agree entirely, but alas the Telegraph is certainly no better, perhaps even worse. I was rather proud to work regularly for the paper over a period of more than 15 years but I would not be now. More than 10 years ago, writing in The Oldie, 'Enfield Senior' (father of Harry) wrote that he did not take the Telegraph any more "because it is now a tabloid in everything but format." Two once fine papers on the other side of the U-bend. Not to mention the others.