Jump to content


Photo

Stop Press/Historical accuracy in documentaries....[merged]


  • Please log in to reply
250 replies to this topic

#51 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,638 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 March 2015 - 20:03

Yes incredible such nonsense could see print given the ease of fact checking today. As for the first American to win at Le Mans probably Luigi Chinetti (1949) would be a good candidate, depending on when his citizenship became final. If not he, then certainly Phil Hill won in 1958 and there is no argument about his nationality. This seems to confirm the comments about Phil Hill sort of falling through the cracks in some of these stories. Actually Hill would have won 3 times before Gurney managed to. Then there is Masten Gregory who won for Chinetti (NART) in 1965. I may have missed some others.

Chinetti was still travelling on an Italian passport when he flew into New York from Paris on December 24th 1949. :)



Advertisement

#52 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,404 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 05 March 2015 - 22:25

Of course 1 year after P Hill. Any thoughts on who would have been the first American?


Jimmy Murphy.

#53 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,993 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 05 March 2015 - 22:56

There's some absolute bollocks in this article about Dan Gurney:

http://www.influx.co...aign=influxford

What a shame, Dan deserves better than this crap. :well:

And he overlooked the Cannonball Run.
 



#54 Jack-the-Lad

Jack-the-Lad
  • Member

  • 2,025 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 06 March 2015 - 05:33

You're right, I particularly like this little gem, real chip-on-shoulder stuff.
 
"His ultra un-European treatment of the podium toast was a Yankee two fingers to Enzo Ferrari and the other Euro snobs of the sport that has since stuck with F1."
 
I'd say that "bollocks" was rather too kind, but I don't think there's anyone on TNF who doesn't rate Dan very highly indeed.


Enzo Ferrari and "Euro snobs" were probably the farthest things from Dan's mind at that moment. Although I've met him only once he seems to be a man totally without artifice, and genuinely modest. He deserves a proper biography.

#55 RobertE

RobertE
  • Member

  • 198 posts
  • Joined: August 07

Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:22

I'd defend the obit. desk at the Telly, as they did a decent job of the Lister effort (but I would say that), but as for the rest of it, I rather agree...



#56 swintex

swintex
  • Member

  • 534 posts
  • Joined: February 04

Posted 11 March 2015 - 12:50

According to this http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/31806209 quiz on the BBC News website, Hans-Joachim Stuck is the son of a son of an "F1-Racing father", which I didn't know.



#57 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 8,803 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 11 March 2015 - 13:23



According to this http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/31806209 quiz on the BBC News website, Hans-Joachim Stuck is the son of a son of an "F1-Racing father", which I didn't know.

 

What's wrong with that? This is a pic of the car he drove, which proves it. From that factually reliable newspaper The Times.

 

1e938067-2f42-4267-baa8-33070d0b9390.jpg



#58 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 20,569 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 March 2015 - 13:42

To be fair, Stuck senior did race in three World Drivers' Championship races, the 1952 Swiss GP and the 1953 German and Italian GPs. But then, of course, these were not F1 Races ... :lol:


Edited by Tim Murray, 11 March 2015 - 13:45.


#59 ReWind

ReWind
  • Member

  • 2,747 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 11 March 2015 - 13:52

But the 1949 GP de Lausanne was.



Advertisement

#60 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,638 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 11 March 2015 - 14:14

But the 1949 GP de Lausanne was.

I'm afraid the Telegraph disagrees, Reinhard.

 

Formula One is born (1950) – On 13 May 1950, in the presence of the Royal Family, 200,000 spectators attended the first ever Formula One grand prix.

:rolleyes:



#61 Michael Ferner

Michael Ferner
  • Member

  • 4,404 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 11 March 2015 - 14:20

But, more importantly perhaps, he's not the "son of a son of" - Stuck senior was a late father!!

#62 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,638 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 11 March 2015 - 14:35

According to this http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/31806209 quiz on the BBC News website, Hans-Joachim Stuck is the son of a son of an "F1-Racing father", which I didn't know.

And as David Hayhoe has pointed out on Facebook, they've missed two: Tim Parnell and Teddy Pilette. Teddy is genuinely third-generation - although grandpère Pilette definitely pre-dates Eff One!



#63 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 1,356 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 11 March 2015 - 17:26

Such nit picking is not a credit to TNF members; for the vital questions such as Hamilton's dogs names, they are absolutely correct!

 

Actually I haven't a clue if he owns any dogs let alone how he addresses them.



#64 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 20,569 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 08 April 2015 - 18:50

According to this http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/31806209 quiz on the BBC News website, Hans-Joachim Stuck is the son of a son of an "F1-Racing father", which I didn't know.

And as David Hayhoe has pointed out on Facebook, they've missed two: Tim Parnell and Teddy Pilette. Teddy is genuinely third-generation - although grandpère Pilette definitely pre-dates Eff One!


They still haven't caught up (see the list of father-and-son F1 drivers in the article below):

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rsport/32223878

#65 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 20,569 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 23 May 2015 - 08:53

Even the (usually) excellent Richard Williams drops the occasional clanger. In his article in today's Guardian on the second Ali-Liston fight in 1965, he reminisces about some other highlights of that year, including:

Jim Clark became the first non-American driver to win the Indy 500.

http://www.theguardi...nny-liston-1965

Edited by Tim Murray, 23 May 2015 - 08:58.


#66 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,638 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 23 May 2015 - 09:28

There is a myth around that Dario Resta became a US citizen at some unspecified point. There's no evidence of this, although - inevitably - it's stated as fact (with no attribution) on Wikipedia. His WW1 draft record and post-war travel records directly contradict this, since the former specifically states that he was a British citizen - also giving his profession as 'Inspector' at Wright-Martin Aircraft Corp - and he consistently appears on the 'aliens' lists on New York passenger arrival manifests in the early 1920s, with nationality as British and ethnicity as Italian. On his final trip to Britain in late 1923, on his way to join Sunbeam, the passenger arrivals manifest at Southampton also lists him as British.

 

George Robson definitely did become a US citizen. Six years before winning the 1946 500. But that doesn't alter the fact that he was born in Newcastle!



#67 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 20,569 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 03 July 2015 - 13:43

I'm afraid the Telegraph disagrees, Reinhard.


Formula One is born (1950) – On 13 May 1950, in the presence of the Royal Family, 200,000 spectators attended the first ever Formula One grand prix.

:rolleyes:

 


The BBC is also telling us that the first F1 British Grand Prix was in 1950:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/33333296


Edited by Tim Murray, 03 July 2015 - 13:45.


#68 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,638 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 July 2015 - 11:26

Suzi Perry has just told us that Silverstone is the oldest and most historic circuit on the F1 calendar. I think they might contest that statement at Monza. Arguably at Spa, too.

 

And I'm not even going to start on the mish-mash of random Brooklands pictures they used. Or the appallingly bad broad brush approach to the pre-War races. Or the clear implication that Silverstone has always been tarmac surfaced.

 

Or the inappropriate CGI.



#69 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,678 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 05 July 2015 - 12:10

Suzi Perry has just told us that Silverstone is the oldest and most historic circuit on the F1 calendar. I think they might contest that statement at Monza. Arguably at Spa, too.

I think Monte Carlo would be a contender for most historic, by having the closest resemblance to its original form.



#70 nicanary

nicanary
  • Member

  • 590 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 05 July 2015 - 13:06

I think Monte Carlo would be a contender for most historic, by having the closest resemblance to its original form.

I might add that in today's Sunday Times the main article about today's GP talked about the disappointing noise and speed of this year's cars, and mentioned that Keke Rosberg had lapped at 160mph in 1985, but this year the speed would be more likely around 135mph. No mention of the compelely different circuit layout. I can only assume that they threw a brief at the nearest pen-pusher and said "here, it's your turn this year".



#71 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,678 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 05 July 2015 - 14:53

The average speed of this year's best lap (Hamilton) was 135.70 m.p.h.

When I last went to a GP (in 1969) the best lap (Stewart) represented 129.61 m.p.h. - and the trackside was grass, not paved run-off.

 

For comparison the race average today was 124.82 and in 1969 127.25 - but it didn't rain in 1969 and the winner ran non-stop and the "safety car" was still to be dreamed up.


Edited by Allan Lupton, 05 July 2015 - 14:54.


#72 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 8,803 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 05 July 2015 - 15:30

When did some people start referring to the place as "Silverstun", as if it hadn't got an 'E' on the end? I was going to suggest that it was the BBC's apparent current dumbing-down preference for Estuary English, but Jordan and Coulthard are doing it as well, has the place been re-named? When I was there as a lad and much more recently as well, it was only ever pronounced as "Silverstone".



#73 Allan Lupton

Allan Lupton
  • Member

  • 3,678 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 05 July 2015 - 16:06

When did some people start referring to the place as "Silverstun", as if it hadn't got an 'E' on the end? I was going to suggest that it was the BBC's apparent current dumbing-down preference for Estuary English, but Jordan and Coulthard are doing it as well, has the place been re-named? When I was there as a lad and much more recently as well, it was only ever pronounced as "Silverstone".

We used to go to Silverst'n as I recall.



#74 ToxicEnviroment

ToxicEnviroment
  • Member

  • 141 posts
  • Joined: February 15

Posted 05 July 2015 - 19:28

And what adjective would you propose for those who are "from the USofA"?


Usofian.

Phillip Hill is the first Usofian world driving champion.

#75 PCC

PCC
  • Member

  • 791 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 05 July 2015 - 21:57

When did some people start referring to the place as "Silverstun", as if it hadn't got an 'E' on the end? I was going to suggest that it was the BBC's apparent current dumbing-down preference for Estuary English, but Jordan and Coulthard are doing it as well, has the place been re-named? When I was there as a lad and much more recently as well, it was only ever pronounced as "Silverstone".

Speaking as a foreigner, it has long seemed to me that the pronunciation of English place names is a web far too tangled for me to navigate. I gave up expecting consistency ages ago.


Edited by PCC, 05 July 2015 - 21:59.


#76 PCC

PCC
  • Member

  • 791 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 05 July 2015 - 21:58

Usofian.

Phillip Hill is the first Usofian world driving champion.

Way too close to 'utopian' to be plausible.



#77 john aston

john aston
  • Member

  • 1,559 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 06 July 2015 - 06:27

Any comparisons between old and new Silverstone are pretty academic. The circuit has altered so many times since I first attended in 71 - it is far longer for a start and no longer is just a series of ultra fast and long bends . I too read the idiotic Sunday Times piece and there can be little doubt that Keke's Williams (which I saw on that lap in 85) would not see which way Lewis' Merc had gone around the current Silverstone - or anywhere else.. come to that. And good though Keke's Honda V6 sounded,only the Hondas and the Renaults sounded the part.Nothing sounded as good as early 90s to early noughties V10s and 12s

#78 Stephen W

Stephen W
  • Member

  • 13,510 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 06 July 2015 - 09:01

Matra V12, Ferrari V12, Honda V12, Weslake V12, BRM V12, Repco V8 and Cosworth DFV - the soundtrack to 1968 was and still is magical.  :cool:



#79 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 06 July 2015 - 09:40

Matra V12, Ferrari V12, Honda V12, Weslake V12, BRM V12, Repco V8 and Cosworth DFV - the soundtrack to 1968 was and still is magical.  :cool:

 

Might include the Maserati V8 in the back of a Cooper to the list (on those occasions when it wasn't overheating/spluttering - I think there were a few :) ).



Advertisement

#80 Tuboscocca

Tuboscocca
  • Member

  • 1,324 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 06 July 2015 - 09:44

Might include the Maserati V8 in the back of a Cooper to the list (on those occasions when it wasn't overheating/spluttering - I think there were a few :) ).

Odseybod--V8  or V12 Maserati..????? (Cooper T81??)

 

Or did I miss something?

 

Michael



#81 Odseybod

Odseybod
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 06 July 2015 - 16:08

Sorry, Michael, V12 of course - senile decay on my part, with a dash on confusion due to the number of operating cylinders usually on duty.

 

Should be in the list, anyway :|



#82 Tuboscocca

Tuboscocca
  • Member

  • 1,324 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 06 July 2015 - 16:14

Sorry, Michael, V12 of course - senile decay on my part, with a dash on confusion due to the number of operating cylinders usually on duty.

 

Should be in the list, anyway :|

Oh welcome to the OFF (Old F... Forum)--I'm the founding president... :drunk:

 

Michael



#83 john aston

john aston
  • Member

  • 1,559 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 06 July 2015 - 16:30

Matra V12, Ferrari V12, Honda V12, Weslake V12, BRM V12, Repco V8 and Cosworth DFV - the soundtrack to 1968 was and still is magical.  :cool:

I don't doubt it - sadly my first exposure to F1 engines was a couple of years later so no Weslake nor Honda. But without any doubt the best sounding racing car I have ever heard was the 2005 Toyota V10 - listening to it accelerating through Woodcote  it made the most extraordinary noises- a deep bass seismic grumble turning to a feral howl. Spine tingling . And not a great car , and neither was the Tecno flat 12 in 73 but it too sounded  terrific .



#84 AAGR

AAGR
  • Member

  • 387 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 06 July 2015 - 18:43

Hold it for a moment.

 

Keith Duckworth, who rarely misjudged an engineering situation, once listened carefully to a Matra V12-engined F1 car at full speed, and commented :

 

'Great noise, but so what. Think of all the f*****g power which it must be wasting because of it ....'



#85 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 8,803 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 06 July 2015 - 21:54

Hold it for a moment.

 

Keith Duckworth, who rarely misjudged an engineering situation, once listened carefully to a Matra V12-engined F1 car at full speed, and commented :

 

'Great noise, but so what. Think of all the f*****g power which it must be wasting because of it ....'

 

Good point, very similar to the one Tony Vandervell made to Enzo about the Ferraris at Monza in 1957. The Italian organisers added a fourth car to the front of the grid, Fangio's red Maserati, so that the all green Vanwall front row wouldn't unduly depress the home crowd.



#86 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,312 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 07 July 2015 - 05:13

I gather that the BRM V16s sounded pretty impressive at Silverst'n' during the 1951 British GP - at least from time to time. But they remained uncompetitive. As my crusty old photographer friend Geoff Goddard used to say "If you can't fight - at least wear a big 'at".   

 

DCN



#87 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 8,803 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 07 July 2015 - 10:30

I gather that the BRM V16s sounded pretty impressive at Silverst'n' during the 1951 British GP...

 

DCN

 

I wonder if Bernie Ecclest'n' has an opinion on the matter?



#88 wolf sun

wolf sun
  • Member

  • 656 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 07 July 2015 - 10:54

Hold it for a moment.

 

Keith Duckworth, who rarely misjudged an engineering situation, once listened carefully to a Matra V12-engined F1 car at full speed, and commented :

 

'Great noise, but so what. Think of all the f*****g power which it must be wasting because of it ....'

 

Who am I to question Duckworth - having said that, his equation certainly appears to be a little too simplified...



#89 nicanary

nicanary
  • Member

  • 590 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 16 September 2015 - 14:13

On a recent edition of a well-known daily TV quiz show - "In what decade was the Monaco Formula One Grand Prix first held?"

 

It goes without saying that the answer they expected was the 1920s. Hey ho......



#90 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,638 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 18 September 2015 - 10:38

Wreckless Eric rides again. Alledgedly. Screenshot from the Telegraph.

 

alledged%20wreckless.jpg

 

They can't even blame spellcheck for those. It all took place in Beverley Hills, according to the article. So that would actually be Beverly Hills with only two Es rather than three then? :rolleyes:



#91 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 1,544 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 19 September 2015 - 12:49

I ration my free views of the Daily Telegraph so that I can keep up with the obituaries, which are still good overall.

 

"It is alledged he was part of the ruling family of Qatar..." Has he been disowned?



#92 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 20,569 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 26 October 2015 - 09:32

This morning on the (BBC Radio 4) Today programme, Jennie Gow (one of the BBC's F1 commentary team) told us that Hamilton's third title put him on a par with the likes of 'Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda and David Brabham'.

#93 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 1,356 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 26 October 2015 - 22:53

This morning on the (BBC Radio 4) Today programme, Jennie Gow (one of the BBC's F1 commentary team) told us that Hamilton's third title put him on a par with the likes of 'Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda and David Brabham'.

Amazing, going from no  podiums to triple WC at the stroke of a BBC pen. Looked up Gow's resume and she has been working in motor sport for awhile. Would someone else have written the copy and she was just reading it? She was born after Sir Jack hung up his helmet, still she should be somewhat aware of F1 history.



#94 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,638 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 26 October 2015 - 23:33

Well, in Ms Gow's defence, if she was speaking live from Austin to the Today programme, which airs between 0600 and 0900, the local time where she was would have been somewhere between 0100 and 0400. After a longer than normal day's work, given that she presumably covered both qualifying and the race on the same day. And probably some hospitality from Mercedes too. So she was likely - at the very least - quite tired. Possibly even slightly 'tired and emotional'.



#95 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 20,569 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 27 October 2015 - 07:40

Yes indeed - to be fair to her, she wasn't working off a prepared script. She was answering questions from one of the studio presenters, and came up with her clanger during one of her answers. I suspect it was just a brain hiccup, and she probably kicked herself when she came off air and realised what she'd said.

#96 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,312 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:23

You are a very kind chap, Tim...   :cool:

 

DCN



#97 retriever

retriever
  • Member

  • 537 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:05

Stop nit-picking, it was a mistake by Ms Gow made after a very long day as Vitesse2 explains.



#98 pacificquay

pacificquay
  • Member

  • 2,696 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 27 October 2015 - 15:52

Even longer day than that, given she was in Austin Thurs/Fri for 5 Live, flew to London to present Formula E for ITV on Saturday morning and then back out to Austin for the Grand Prix



#99 B Squared

B Squared
  • Member

  • 5,365 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 27 October 2015 - 16:46

Stop nit-picking, it was a mistake by Ms Gow made after a very long day as Vitesse2 explains.

I remember laughing when I first joined TNF and reading the next post after someone said to quit nit-picking that went...."uh, that should be spelled nitpicking." 



Advertisement

#100 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 9,312 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 27 October 2015 - 21:58

Ahem - "nit picking"...

 

DCN