2188 replies to this topic

[motorhead]

What was wrong with the pace? 

the drivers did a bad job yesterday. Had they done a good job, they could have taken the pole. 

As for race pace, vettel managed to get to the end on dead US and still be faster than Bottas. There was zero wrong with the pace of the car and it took a magic weekend from Hamilton to beat the Ferrari's

 

Ok, zero wrong with the pace and still couldn´t catch RedBull nor Mercedes

[HermannH]

Ok, zero wrong with the pace and still couldn´t catch RedBull nor Mercedes

After his pitstop he was on tyre save mode the whole race.

[Ramon69]

You can't just blame it on the drivers, especially Seb who always excelled in Singapore! Ferrari's chassis is not that far ahead, if it is at all, in comparison to Red Bull and Mercedes. I think that  many praise the Ferrari car because it appears (rightfully so) to be the strongest on power tracks, an area where the team gained the most! But when it comes to the aero side, I believe that if all 3 teams had the same engines, Ferrari would be easily the 3rd, although by not much difference.

 

The gap is quite big because of Seb's errors, it's very true and that will have him think about it during the winter break, if he fails to win the championship this year, but we cannot pretend that the car is as dominant as some of you made it out to be.

[Melchiot]

He is simply not good in maximizing his results.
Raw speed is there, most of the other things are not.
And about 2008 and 2012 car comparison, Alonso mounted a whole season title challenge in that car, it’s not about one circumstantial win, like in 2008.

 

Yes, because the 2012 "shitbox" was objectively much more competitive than the 2008 "good car".

Edited by Melchiot, 16 September 2018 - 17:06.

[boillot]

Yes, because the 2012 "shitbox" was much more competitive than the 2008 "good car".

2008 STR was a good car for a circumstantial win.
2012 Ferrari was a shitbox when talking about the title challenge. I did not compare them directly.
Anyway, as I wrote before, Vettel has (and had) the car to win the title outside RBR. When and if he does so, I’ll change my opinion.

[xtremeclock]

Q: (Edd Straw – Autosport) Sebastian, you said you and the team didn’t get everything out of the car this weekend. Can you just talk through the progression over the weekend, where you went in the wrong direction? And just in general, do you think the team is not necessarily making the right calls and doing the right things with the way they play the weekend to maximise your chances?

 

SV: No, I will always defend the team. I think the decision we took in the race, the decisions to try to be aggressive, if it works it’s great, today it didn’t work. Obviously it didn’t work by quite a bit and we need to look into that. But I believe we saw something and that’s why we go for it. Obviously inside the car it’s difficult to be on top of everything because you cannot see where you come out etc. We were aggressive in trying to get ahead, taking into account that we have to go through traffic, which in the end bit us also, to lose the second place. If it doesn’t work it is always easy to criticise but I will always defend what we did. Overall, we had a very strong package, both Kimi and myself, I think we looked very competitive throughout practice but in the end if you look at the race result we finished third and fifth. Like yesterday, probably not where the speed of our car belongs so that’s what I mean by saying we didn’t get everything out of ourselves.

 

Nice trap, too bad he didn't fall for it.

Edited by xtremeclock, 16 September 2018 - 17:09.

[Melchiot]

2008 STR was a good car for a circumstantial win.
2012 Ferrari was a shitbox when talking about the title challenge. I did not compare them directly.
Anyway, as I wrote before, Vettel has (and had) the car to win the title outside RBR. When and if he does so, I’ll change my opinion.

Would you call the current year Williams and Mclaren "good cars" for backmarkers?

 

We are comparing them to their competition, and the 2012 ferrari was objectively a much better car in any way shape or form.

Never heard anyone call a multiple race winner and championship contending car a "shitbox" until 2012 season happened.

[boillot]

Never heard anyone call a multiple race winner and championship contending car a "shitbox" until 2012 season happened.

Exactly, because no driver did such a great season as Alonso did in 2012, since Prost in 1986.

[jstrains]

I cannot watch this anymore, they are throwing it away with driver and team errors like in 2010, the only thing that can help Seb is a “oh no oh no Lewis Malaysia like” issue

[Melchiot]

Exactly, because no driver did such a great season as Alonso did in 2012, since Prost in 1986.

 

Well look what hes doing this season in a shitbox...hes hardly fighting for the championship, is he?

[YoungGun]

Exactly, because no driver did such a great season as Alonso did in 2012, since Prost in 1986.

 

Who gives the **** what Alonso did in 2012, does he not have his own thread?

Edited by YoungGun, 16 September 2018 - 17:37.

[DeKnyff]

Would you call the current year Williams and Mclaren "good cars" for backmarkers?

 

We are comparing them to their competition, and the 2012 ferrari was objectively a much better car in any way shape or form.

Never heard anyone call a multiple race winner and championship contending car a "shitbox" until 2012 season happened.

Useless discussion about semantics.

 

"Good car" or "bad car" as absolutes are concepts that do not exist in motorsports, cars are only "good" or "bad" in comparison with the other cars and the goals of the team. In that context, the 2012 Ferrari was a bad car, because it was generally slower that the Red Bull, although it was probably on pair with the McLaren and above the remaining cars. Call it "sh!tbox" or "slightly underperforming" if you prefer, these are only figures of speech. But the result is the same: not a match for the best.

[Dalton007]

The strategy was terrible. Ultras on Vettel's car?     They were unlucky with Perez, the team didn't expect Vettel to catch him within one lap!

[FullOppositeLock]

What a cluster **** of a race. We got spanked today by Mercedes and Red Bull ... accepting a beating from Mercedes is palatable, but Red Bull lucking into a podium at our expense for putting Seb on the wrong tire after he went aggressive in the opening laps is just unacceptable. 

 

We don't deserve to be considered in the same league as Red Bull let alone Mercedes.  

 

Hold on, what..? Firstly even if Seb had finished ahead of Max a Red Bull would have been on the podium such was Max' pace advantage compared to Bottas, Kimi and Ric. Secondly, even if Ferrari had put Seb on softs he would have come out behind Max after the latter's pit stop. Their mistake was pitting him too early and releasing him behind Perez whom Seb made hard work of. I say mistake, but that is even assuming he could have gone on for much longer on his ultras, at least long enough to clear Perez. As it happened the lap before Seb pitted he was only ahead of Perez by 15s, and Perez only pitted 3 laps after he did, so I think it's fair to at least give Max some credit here and say he did very well to get himself back ahead despite Seb being on newer, softer tyres. In fact, Max put in two 1.45.2's on his worn out hyper's straight after Seb pitted, a lap time Seb only managed to beat after 25+ laps on his ultras with a by that time much lighter car.

 

I think Max beat Seb fair and square today, like he did yesterday. If that's due to the car underperforming or Seb underperforming I don't know. Well, I do have my suspicions but I will behave and not aggrieve the red-blooded natives in here. It's a huge shame for F1 that Lewis has built a 40 points gap already. It's been a terrific season so far and I'm still counting on Ferrari and Seb to take it to the wire.

[as65p]

 

Q: (Edd Straw – Autosport) Sebastian, you said you and the team didn’t get everything out of the car this weekend. Can you just talk through the progression over the weekend, where you went in the wrong direction? And just in general, do you think the team is not necessarily making the right calls and doing the right things with the way they play the weekend to maximise your chances?

 

SV: No, I will always defend the team. I think the decision we took in the race, the decisions to try to be aggressive, if it works it’s great, today it didn’t work. Obviously it didn’t work by quite a bit and we need to look into that. But I believe we saw something and that’s why we go for it. Obviously inside the car it’s difficult to be on top of everything because you cannot see where you come out etc. We were aggressive in trying to get ahead, taking into account that we have to go through traffic, which in the end bit us also, to lose the second place. If it doesn’t work it is always easy to criticise but I will always defend what we did. Overall, we had a very strong package, both Kimi and myself, I think we looked very competitive throughout practice but in the end if you look at the race result we finished third and fifth. Like yesterday, probably not where the speed of our car belongs so that’s what I mean by saying we didn’t get everything out of ourselves.

 

Nice trap, too bad he didn't fall for it.

 

Really? I think he strolled right into it:
 

 

SV: No, I will always defend the team.

 

 

That basically implies the team messed up, otherwise they would need no defending.

 

Same for this:
 

 

SV: Obviously inside the car it’s difficult to be on top of everything because you cannot see where you come out etc.

 

 

which translates to: "I have to try and take care of everything, as i don't get enough help from the team"

[noriaki]

2008 STR was a good car for a circumstantial win.
2012 Ferrari was a shitbox when talking about the title challenge. I did not compare them directly.
Anyway, as I wrote before, Vettel has (and had) the car to win the title outside RBR. When and if he does so, I’ll change my opinion.

 

Why is a wet weather victory "circumstantial" whereas Fred's 2012 title challenge with Pirelli throwing in a spanner every race is "greatest season since Prost 86"?

[DeKnyff]

Really? I think he strolled right into it:

 

That basically implies the team messed up, otherwise they would need no defending.

 

Same for this:

 

which translates to: "I have to try and take care of everything, as i don't get enough help from the team"

Yup. It was a very strange way of defending the team.

[CL16]

He’s losing his mind, Lewis Hamilton man... once he’s in your head you’re done for.

Alonso ran. Heikki disappeared. Rosberg retired. Bottas broken.

[WelshSwan]

I give credit to Seb for finishing the race today and managing to last on the ultra's for as long as he did. I was expecting a puncture or an error but it never came so he gave everything today. Let's be honest, he knew when Max jumped him after the stops his race was over and he just had to try and coast to the finish. Luckily for him Bottas was pretty slow and held up Raikkonen and Ricciardo, though I think if Kimi had got past Bottas he would have been told to act as a buffer between Ricciardo and Seb rightly so.

 

For Kimi it was just a pretty anonymous weekend really. A typical weekend for a Kimi fan, goes well in Practice and teases you into thinking there is potential then come Saturday we're going 'What happened?' and on Sunday no places made at the start and a race stuck behind someone. I won't critique him too much for not passing Bottas since I can sort of understand why he never made an attempt, Bottas can be clumsy at times and with Ricciardo right behind them any mistake would have seen Dan off down the road and after Seb so can sort of see why he played it safe. Still, this is one more weekend without a win and as the season goes I sadly feel like his best chances at getting that elusive victory are behind us. 

[allaboard70]

They messed up as a team on the qualification. They also had to pay the price. Seb came at least on the podium. What could Kimi do more than he did? For now, just focusing on the final races and hopefully Seb can win some races, with Kimi as second. There are many points to fight for until the very end... 

[DrF]

Vettel has lost the title race unless Hamilton has some serious reliability issues and Seb capitalises.
The title race was lost through a series of mistakes and bad calls during the season, despite the car being pretty much the fastest all season (with exceptions).
Hamilton and Merc are just flawless. Their car is bulletproof, Bottas is fast enough and obedient enough to block another car for Lewis when they have to and they hardly ever mess up their strategy.
Ferrari simply don't have what it takes to beat Mercedes at the moment. They have a fast car and lead driver, a compliant team mate and yet they can't string together a decent weekend.
Either they get it wrong in qualifying like they did on Saturday (Vettel even called out that Merc were moving slowly on the outlap, implying Merc knew something which Ferrari didn't) or they get outsmarted during the race.
Whatever it is, something is just not clicking at Ferrari at the moment.

Edited by DrF, 17 September 2018 - 06:36.

[Radion]

Arrivabene needs to go. At this point I think even toto wolff would have got on top of operational downfalls.

[OO7]

Arrivabene needs to go. At this point I think even toto wolff would have got on top of operational downfalls.

Steady.  Arrivabene could equally be lauded for putting the technical structure in place that created such a strong car (Something the Tifosi have dreamt about since 2008).  Also the strategic side of Merc at the beginning of the year wasn't exactly something to celebrate.

[Celloman]

Yes, 2008 STR was better than that year’s RBR.
Not a bad car and of course the Monza drive was very good. But let him win the title without a Newey car, then we can talk about greatness.

How come the 2008 STR somehow became a better car that year when it never matched RBR even closely in any other season? I don't buy that. The only thing that was obviously (but marginally) better with that STR was the Ferrari engine. Most of those 2008 STR great results came in rain and as we all know driver skill often becomes the deciding factor in the rain.

[Zoe]

I'd rather have a straight talking Arrivabene in the paddock than the hypocritical Wolff....

[Taxi]

They were both quite poor in Q3 and average in  race. Hamilton and Verstappen were a level above in performance and Mercedes quite better as a team. Ferarri simply was caught sleeping. 

Edited by Taxi, 17 September 2018 - 08:18.

[tom]

I'm pretty over this season since Kimi got taken out at Spa. Feels like it's all over now for Seb too. Anything can happen I know but I doubt anything can stop Lewis now.

[geralt]

Can we talk about Seb's brilliant first lap for a moment? He got an excellent start and was slightly ahead Verstappen by the time they reached the braking point, but conceded the position instead of taking any risks. Then, he set up his move brilliantly by forcing Max to take defensive lines and compromising his exits and finally he blasted past him. It's good to see he seems to have learnt his lesson from Monza

[tmekt]

Arrivabene needs to go. At this point I think even toto wolff would have got on top of operational downfalls.

Don't you think we've established with Ferrari that endlessly sacking the team principal is not a very effective way to develop the team? It takes a long time to build a winning organisation.

Now that they've apparently finally managed to achieve that with technical direction, it's not the time to tear the whole thing open again just because there's still work to be done with race operations.

Edited by tmekt, 17 September 2018 - 08:50.

[DeKnyff]

Arrivabene needs to go. At this point I think even toto wolff would have got on top of operational downfalls.

I don't think that would be a solution. Ferrari has reached its highest level of competitiveness since 2008. What they need now is fine tuning.

[Ramon69]

Arrivabene needs to go. At this point I think even toto wolff would have got on top of operational downfalls.

How can you blame this on Arrivabene?! He's the best team principal Ferrari had in years.

[Radion]

Under Domenicali race operations were very good (with Alonso) as far as I remember. But car development was bad. 

Under Arrivabene race operations are bad but car development is good. 

 

The result is the same. 

Edited by Radion, 18 September 2018 - 11:55.

[OO7]

Can we talk about Seb's brilliant first lap for a moment? He got an excellent start and was slightly ahead Verstappen by the time they reached the braking point, but conceded the position instead of taking any risks. Then, he set up his move brilliantly by forcing Max to take defensive lines and compromising his exits and finally he blasted past him. It's good to see he seems to have learnt his lesson from Monza

He made a very good start, however I don't think we can say he has learnt from Monza just yet.  In Singapore at T1, he was on the outside facing Max (a driver with nothing to lose), he really had no other opinion than to yield.

[OO7]

Under Domenicali race operations were very good (with Alonso) as far as I remember. But car development was bad. 

Under Arrivabene race operations are bad but car development is good. 

 

The result is the same. 

I think race operations are far easier to sort out than technical direction.

[Nonesuch]

Don't you think we've established with Ferrari that endlessly sacking the team principal is not a very effective way to develop the team? It takes a long time to build a winning organisation.

 

It's not that simple.

 

Mercedes had plenty of team principals in the lead-up to 2014. Sometimes multiple at the same time. Other teams have had the same team principals for years, without ever winning a race.

 

Red Bull has had the same team principal for 10+ years and they've gone from winning titles to being happy about a podium.

 

You need good people who perform at all times. Or at least minimize their mistakes to within an acceptable range.

 

The latter is clearly not the case for the folks on the Ferrari pitwall.

[AlexPrime]

He’s losing his mind, Lewis Hamilton man... once he’s in your head you’re done for.

Alonso ran. Heikki disappeared. Rosberg retired. Bottas broken.

Nico freed himself of Lewis in 2016 IMO. He tried to beat him in 2014 and 2015 and lost. 2016 he IMO started thinking about the WDC and the last races were good example that he didn't give a f***k about Lewis, he wanted the championship. Then, job done, bye fellas! 
For Seb, no doubt Lewis is a terrifying rival, but Jenson was not that scared. I think Ferrari pressure is huge. For me this is what causing the problems, for Seb and the team as well.

[Celloman]

Under Domenicali race operations were very good (with Alonso) as far as I remember. But car development was bad. 

Under Arrivabene race operations are bad but car development is good. 

 

The result is the same. 

Nah, race operations was crappy with Domenicali until around 2011 or 2012. Overall race operations is miles better now than 10 years ago. Some of the legendary failures that came under Domenicali:

 

-Massa pit stop traffic light failure (Singapore 2008)

-Pitting Kimi for wet tire when track was bone dry (Sepang 2009)

-Not telling Alonso to let past illegally overtaken car, causing extra drive through penalty (Britain 2010)

-Poor handling of Felipe Massa's team order (Germany 2010)

-Pitting Alonso as reaction to Webber's pit stop costing the championship (Abu Dhabi 2010)

-Failure of strategy with leaving Alonso out on worn tires (Canada 2012)

Edited by Celloman, 18 September 2018 - 14:23.

[Lights]

Had Kimi not suffered bad luck in Bahrain, Spain, and Belgium, and instead scored a conservative 34 points, this would be the standings:

 

Hamilton 281

Vettel 241

Raikkonen 208

 

Kimi would just be 33 points behind Vettel.

[LH44Fan]

Can we talk about Seb's brilliant first lap for a moment? He got an excellent start and was slightly ahead Verstappen by the time they reached the braking point, but conceded the position instead of taking any risks. Then, he set up his move brilliantly by forcing Max to take defensive lines and compromising his exits and finally he blasted past him. It's good to see he seems to have learnt his lesson from Monza

 

Exactly what I was going to post, he perfected the move he should've pulled off at Monza when Lewis came steaming round the outside, accept defeat momentarily, compose yourself and come back fighting. No one can win every battle every time!

 

Even Max was driving using his brain (finally) at the start. Won't lie, I was nervous as hell though (with both Max and Vettel behind, that's usually asking for trouble!)...

[Taxi]

Had Kimi not suffered bad luck in Bahrain, Spain, and Belgium, and instead scored a conservative 34 points, this would be the standings:

 

Hamilton 281

Vettel 241

Raikkonen 208

 

Kimi would just be 33 points behind Vettel.

 

And Ferrari closer to Mercedes. Nevertheless it's an OK season for Kimi: Not far from Vettel and puting some good performances.  

[Celloman]

And Ferrari closer to Mercedes. Nevertheless it's an OK season for Kimi: Not far from Vettel and puting some good performances.  

One interesting aspect is that Kimi has increased his points score each season since joining Ferrari, and trend is likely to continue for this year. Maybe Ferrari should have waited until 202X and have Kimi scoring 300 points.

[Msaman]

I wish next season's Sauber to be on par with Lotus and Kimi matching Sen there ;*)
A bit wishful thinking never hurts does it ;*)))

[Amin]

I wish next season's Sauber to be on par with Lotus and Kimi matching Sen there ;*)
A bit wishful thinking never hurts does it ;*)))

Sadly, the gap between the top 3 and the rest is too big for that but 7th might be possible. I see a good battle between Kimi, the Renault boys and Perez for that 7th place. Hopefully KMag too.

[sopa]

People here are saying that Vettel is slow.

 

Well, how slow is he?

 

People say that he is slower than Ricciardo, whose qualifying loss to Verstappen is greater than Bottas' loss to Hamilton.

 

I guess that makes Vettel slower than Bottas too. And well, probably slower than the likes of Hulkenberg too.

 

On top of that Vettel isn't just slow, but his racecraft is down there with Grosjean and Maldonado, which makes him worse overall.

 

But somehow this man has won 4 championships and 52 Grands Prix. Which is all incredible luck. He has also been incredibly lucky to be #1 driver in Ferrari and Red Bull for almost a decade. Also luck. Or great negotiation skills by the manager... who is by the way Vettel himself.

 

Once Vettel's driving career is over, he has good career outlooks in becoming a driver manager. Apparently he has extraordinary skills to negotiate golden deals for average drivers. Anyone would want to have some of that!

 

But I guess even the biggest detractors would admit that Vettel is at least quicker than Webber and Raikkonen. So I guess it's not that bad. It could be worse. You could be an Ericsson or a Hartley.

[Amin]

People here are saying that Vettel is slow.

 

Well, how slow is he?

 

People say that he is slower than Ricciardo, whose qualifying loss to Verstappen is greater than Bottas' loss to Hamilton.

 

I guess that makes Vettel slower than Bottas too. And well, probably slower than the likes of Hulkenberg too.

 

On top of that Vettel isn't just slow, but his racecraft is down there with Grosjean and Maldonado, which makes him worse overall.

 

But somehow this man has won 4 championships and 52 Grands Prix. Which is all incredible luck. He has also been incredibly lucky to be #1 driver in Ferrari and Red Bull for almost a decade. Also luck. Or great negotiation skills by the manager... who is by the way Vettel himself.

 

Once Vettel's driving career is over, he has good career outlooks in becoming a driver manager. Apparently he has extraordinary skills to negotiate golden deals for average drivers. Anyone would want to have some of that!

 

But I guess even the biggest detractors would admit that Vettel is at least quicker than Webber and Raikkonen. So I guess it's not that bad. It could be worse. You could be an Ericsson or a Hartley.

Personally, I think Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton and Alonso speed-wise but he carries more flaws. He hasn't matured as much as the other two drivers. 

[Vesuvius]

Personally, I think Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton and Alonso speed-wise but he carries more flaws. He hasn't matured as much as the other two drivers.

This. Vettel on speed-wise is fast, I think definately top 2 or 3,
but he does sometimes mistakes under pressure, this was confirmed by Newey couple of days ago.

[Raikkonen]

I can't understand how people stare so blindly at specific season and draw a conclusion to who is faster.

After 3,5 years together (almost) everybody agrees, including me, that Vettel is faster than Kimi, but to be convinced that Ricciardo is faster than Vettel just by looking at 2014 is beyond me.

There is no doubt in my mind that Vettel has the SPEED, it's other areas he's weak in. On the other hand RIC or VER have not faced the pressure from a WDC rivalry.

A bit off-topic but when someone says Bottas is faster than Kimi just because Bottas beat Massa ten years later is ridiculous imo. These arguements never take a drivers adaptability in account either.

[tmekt]

People here are saying that Vettel is slow.

Are they?

[Taxi]

People here are saying that Vettel is slow.

 

Well, how slow is he?

 

People say that he is slower than Ricciardo, whose qualifying loss to Verstappen is greater than Bottas' loss to Hamilton.

 

I guess that makes Vettel slower than Bottas too. And well, probably slower than the likes of Hulkenberg too.

 

On top of that Vettel isn't just slow, but his racecraft is down there with Grosjean and Maldonado, which makes him worse overall.

 

But somehow this man has won 4 championships and 52 Grands Prix. Which is all incredible luck. He has also been incredibly lucky to be #1 driver in Ferrari and Red Bull for almost a decade. Also luck. Or great negotiation skills by the manager... who is by the way Vettel himself.

 

Once Vettel's driving career is over, he has good career outlooks in becoming a driver manager. Apparently he has extraordinary skills to negotiate golden deals for average drivers. Anyone would want to have some of that!

 

But I guess even the biggest detractors would admit that Vettel is at least quicker than Webber and Raikkonen. So I guess it's not that bad. It could be worse. You could be an Ericsson or a Hartley.

 

 

I think Seb is ultimately faster than Hamilton. But he makes some more mistakes and boils down easily. He was given all the conditions to win a Championship for Ferrari and he should be winning it last year or this year. Not going to happen and he's becoming impatient. 

[sopa]

Are they?

 

Some people, to be more precise.