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Sebastian Vettel vs Kimi Raikkonen 2018 -- part 2


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#2151 AlexPrime

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 17:59

I love the can of worms I opened with the Prost comparison, knew that the usual suspect will just lose their mind  :lol:



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#2152 sopa

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 19:13

Prost versus Vettel?

 

I see that Vettel has good chances to beat Prost in qualifying and in the wet. But Prost's racecraft and racing consistency would probably see him on top overall, particularly over multiple seasons during which Vettel's inconsistencies would have a more profound effect. However, I don't envisage this battle being as one-sided as some would think.

 

E: Outcome also depends into which era you would put them to race, because nowadays qualifying counts more in the overall results than in Prost's heyday. Prost won his races mostly due to racing smarts, not grid positions, and you could make more difference with that back then.


Edited by sopa, 10 December 2018 - 19:44.


#2153 MLC

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 19:43

Prost versus Vettel?

 

I see that Vettel has good chances to beat Prost in qualifying and in the wet. But Prost's racecraft and racing consistency would probably see him on top overall, particularly over multiple seasons during which Vettel's inconsistencies would have a more profound effect. However, I don't envisage this battle being as one-sided as some would think.

 

 

Prost beat the following WDC, while in the same team. I think he could see off Vettel.

 

- Lauda

- Rosberg

- Senna

- Mansell

- Hill



#2154 andyz

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 19:53

.......Vettel won all the titles while having incredibly huge and unfair car advantage, no. 1 status and under the same set of rules and one team domination and he never actually fought for the WDC until the last 2 or so races again.......

4 times WDC with NO mass dampers or illegal traction control.  Sour Grapes, maybe?? :wave:



#2155 boillot

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 21:47

2010 and 2012 Red Bulls were not as dominant as the 1888/9 Mclaren and 1993 Wiliams. Prost was amazing, no doubts but he had his flaws. He was just average in the wet for instance. He didn't like high speed corners. His 1986 was great of course but it was williams who gave it away in that Australian GP by having Piquet made an extra pit stop after Mansell was so unlucky.

If you look at some of Vettel's poles you'll see speed only matched by Senna and Hamilton. Vettel is unbeateable in those races he's "on".

Overall Vettel and Prost are comparable and only time will make Sebastian justice.

Edit: although my favourit of the 80's golden era was Piquet who I think is vastly underrated, I'm also a huge Prost fan and can't like Senna and Mansell.

Piquet was my favourite as well, vastly underrated driver, suffering probably from the fact that Senna’s grandomania and tragic death sucked all the space there was for Brazilian F1 drivers in that era. Prost had his faults indeed but 1986 was not decided in Australia only, all the races contributed to the outcome. As the time passed by I learned to appreciate and like Prost much more and Senna, whom I never liked, even less so.

But back to Vettel. It’s now 5 years since his last title. He was almost matched by Kimi this year - when Kimi cared, and after 2007, he generally cared only when it was time to secure the new contract or when the car was really very good. My humble opinion has it that Vettel will never win again, even if he lands a Mercedes seat. We’ll see but I think that the history will not judge him favourably. The only difference between himself and many one time champions is that his team maintained huge car advantage for 4.5 years and he was the team’s favourite son.
About 2010 and 2012, the cars were dominant but poorly driven, that’s all.

#2156 boillot

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 21:48

4 times WDC with NO mass dampers or illegal traction control. Sour Grapes, maybe?? :wave:

With illegal budget spending, flexible wings violating all clearance rules, cold blowing, quasi-bespoke tyres, etc....

But it should be easy: he has the car, he’s driving in the top team. Let him win again. I’d certainly be proven wrong then.

Edited by boillot, 10 December 2018 - 21:53.


#2157 baddog

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 01:36

I'm not going to quote the resident bridge-dweller, but all of these arguments that Vettel is **** are predicated on the insane idea that a completely dominant team with a vast budget and great image chooses to risk success in the hands of a second-rate flaky failure when they could easily have hired anyone they liked at that time and been totally sure of utter domination.

 

But somehow a kid with a few early results to his name has this amazing power to force the best team to give him number one status in their rocketship, while ignoring apparently much better drivers. 

 

Unlikely.



#2158 sopa

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:27

 

But somehow a kid with a few early results to his name has this amazing power to force the best team to give him number one status in their rocketship, while ignoring apparently much better drivers. 

 

True that. Plus if Red Bull was adamant to hiring from their own programme, they could just as well hired Buemi or Alguersuari as their lead driver. I assume we are led to believe they were just as good as Vettel? :)



#2159 Taxi

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:38

Vettel just needs a bit more consistency in wheel to wheel battles. He's either very good [just see mexico] or makes silly judjment mistakes [USA, Japan]. Plus, being the Ferrari lead driver is a lot of pressure [just see how the mighty Alain Prost did]. It's my personal opinion that Sebastian and Hamilton are more or less equal in terms of pure speed and talent but Lewis has the  psicologic momentum right now, the same way Vettel had between 2010-2013. 

 

One more thing: I have the feeling Kimi was very useful to the team all this years in terms of technical feedback and maturity. Lets see if Ferrari doesn't lack on those areas next year. 



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#2160 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:42

Vettel just needs a bit more consistency in wheel to wheel battles. He's either very good [just see mexico] or makes silly judjment mistakes [USA, Japan]. Plus, being the Ferrari lead driver is a lot of pressure [just see how the mighty Alain Prost did]. It's my personal opinion that Sebastian and Hamilton are more or less equal in terms of pure speed and talent but Lewis has the  psicologic momentum right now, the same way Vettel had between 2010-2013. 

 

One more thing: I have the feeling Kimi was very useful to the team all this years in terms of technical feedback and maturity. Lets see if Ferrari doesn't lack on those areas next year. 

 

Aye, it'd be interesting to see what would've happened with Merc this year if Rosberg was still in that second seat.



#2161 sopa

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:52

About 2010 and 2012, the cars were dominant but poorly driven, that’s all.

 

I find it quite interesting, when people claim that the 2012 Red Bull was dominant. Let's take a look at the first half and middle part of the season. Teams on podium in each race:

 

Australia: McLaren, Red Bull, McLaren

Malaysia: Ferrari, Sauber, McLaren

China: Mercedes, McLaren, McLaren

Bahrain: Red Bull, Lotus, Lotus

Spain: Williams, Ferrari, Lotus

Monaco: Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari

Canada: McLaren, Lotus, Sauber

Europe: Ferrari, Lotus, Mercedes

UK: Red Bull, Ferrari, Red Bull

Germany: Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus

Hungary: McLaren, Lotus, Lotus

Belgium: McLaren, Red Bull, Lotus

Italy: McLaren, Sauber, Ferrari

 

As far as I can see only 6 podiums for Red Bull in that timeframe, even Lotus achieved more. For Red Bull to be dominant I assume most of the drivers including the likes of Perez or Grosjean were performing much better than Vettel & Webber in that timeframe?

 

Also top 3 in the drivers championship after the Italian GP was Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen. How dominant must have that Red Bull been?

 

Also one could add that Maldonado's victory looks even more impressive in this context, because not only did he beat Alonso to victory, but even more incredibly he beat the dominant Red Bulls. :eek:


Edited by sopa, 11 December 2018 - 09:59.


#2162 kryziuotis

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:01

But somehow a kid with a few early results to his name has this amazing power to force the best team to give him number one status in their rocketship, while ignoring apparently much better drivers.

At the time they hired Vettel (2008) they sill weren't the best team. Nobody was taking them seriously and they couldn't hire better drivers. For example they tried to hire Alonso, but he refused and signed Ferrari instead. And when in 2010 RedBull produced dominant car and took both titles - why change something that works.



#2163 DeKnyff

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:29

At the time they hired Vettel (2008) they sill weren't the best team. Nobody was taking them seriously and they couldn't hire better drivers. For example they tried to hire Alonso, but he refused and signed Ferrari instead. And when in 2010 RedBull produced dominant car and took both titles - why change something that works.

Just to put this into perspective, the 2010 season, before it started, was expected to be a great fight among Alonso in the Ferrari, Hamilton in the McLaren and Schumacher in the then current world champion Mercedes (ex-Brawn). Red Bull was seen as an outsider: Newey had certainly mastered the new regulations in 2009, but the other teams were supposed to recover the lost ground thanks to their sheer might.



#2164 boillot

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 17:05

Actually, Vettel was good enough and cheap enough around 2010 and RBR knew that it was much wiser to invest more in the car development because the car advantage is more important than having a top driver in the car. Just like in for example 1961, it didn't really matter who sat in that cars and there was no point in spending a lot on a driver. That was not a part of the plan.

#2165 Nonesuch

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 17:16

I find it quite interesting, when people claim that the 2012 Red Bull was dominant.

 

It's always the same story. Some fans are very emotionally invested in certain drivers. So when the subject of their affection is facing off against Driver X, one of three scenarios usually comes around:

 

A) His car is dominant, that's why Driver X wins.

B) His car is dominant, but Driver X is too slow/clumsy to make use of it. Isn't Driver Y amazing?

C) It's true that his car is bad, but that's because Driver X is giving bad feedback / is a toxic personality / has a bad lifestyle.

 

There's very little point in going down this rabbit hole.

 

The results of F1 races are there for all to see, it doesn't really matter if a small number of people draws all kinds of crazy conclusions from them.

 

These drivers are all extremely competent. That's why they are where they are. They sometimes do dumb stuff, and they make mistakes. The effects of those mistakes is amplified by the circumstances under which they are made. Nobody has to like Vettel, or Hamilton, or Alonso, or Räikkönen - or mere race winners like Ricciardo or Verstappen - but they're all great drivers.



#2166 lightstoflag

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 17:51

Aye, it'd be interesting to see what would've happened with Merc this year if Rosberg was still in that second seat.

If you hypothetically cloned Rosberg and made him teammate to both Hamilton and Vettel this year, Hamilton would fare better of him and Vettel and win the title. Otherwise, your current scenario is just wondering whether Hamilton could beat Vettel even while overcoming a teammate who is actually racing for his pride, unlike Kimi. No way would Nico be scraping a solitary victory in this year's Ferrari (I think he would have had three or so wins in the Mercedes). In any event, in this changed competitive climate from 2014-2016, I reckon Hamilton would handle such a handicap any way.



#2167 AlexPrime

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 21:06

Also top 3 in the drivers championship after the Italian GP was Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen. How dominant must have that Red Bull been?

 

So much that MW never won 2nd in the championship. He was sixth in 2012, if I am not mistaken. But you see, it is part of the conspiracy - to make poor Vettel look good, RBR hired abominable MW as his teammate :rotfl: 
God, to laugh is the only way to deal with the anti-Seb haters, I swear!



#2168 boillot

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 21:32

There’s no conspiracy, Weber was simply an average or worse F1 driver.

#2169 boillot

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 22:02

It's always the same story. Some fans are very emotionally invested in certain drivers. So when the subject of their affection is facing off against Driver X, one of three scenarios usually comes around:

A) His car is dominant, that's why Driver X wins.
B) His car is dominant, but Driver X is too slow/clumsy to make use of it. Isn't Driver Y amazing?
C) It's true that his car is bad, but that's because Driver X is giving bad feedback / is a toxic personality / has a bad lifestyle.

There's very little point in going down this rabbit hole.

The results of F1 races are there for all to see, it doesn't really matter if a small number of people draws all kinds of crazy conclusions from them.

These drivers are all extremely competent. That's why they are where they are. They sometimes do dumb stuff, and they make mistakes. The effects of those mistakes is amplified by the circumstances under which they are made. Nobody has to like Vettel, or Hamilton, or Alonso, or Räikkönen - or mere race winners like Ricciardo or Verstappen - but they're all great drivers.

Of course they are all excellent, outstanding drivers in absolute terms. They all belong to the let’s say 0.1% of the best drivers in the pool that includes you, me, my aunt and her dog as well.
But when we judge the F1 drivers we zoom into this 0.1% and reset the scale to 0 to 100% again.

#2170 baddog

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 23:39

Tell you what? I am quite sure there is no-one actually FASTER than Vettel. His ability in a scrap is mediocre and always has been, but his ability to put the car at the front and win by sheer pace, and to user tyres and fuel well while retaining pace, is as good as anyone, and that is a WDC deserving status. Raikkonen has been inconsistent by comparison and also shared the same tendency to get in silly scraps.

 

Of course the problem is that Hamilton has risen to match that speed while retaining his ability in the fight, which makes him a better driver overall. I'm not even going to suggest Vettel is, as a whole package, better than Hamilton, because he is not right now, no-one is.



#2171 SCUDmissile

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 00:33

Think you guys need to stop biting to these had faith criticisms of Vettel.

Once anyone says the 2012 RedBull was dominant red flags should be going off and it's time to disengage.

I admit I've been overly critical of him too, but that was fueled by rate more than anything.

But this kind of cynical trolling, no point in rehashing the same arguments.

#2172 MurMur80

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 07:02

Kimi`s book broke sales record here in Finland. 170000 books sold in first year of publishing and its been out less than six months. 



#2173 JRodrigues

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 10:44

Kimi`s book broke sales record here in Finland. 170000 books sold in first year of publishing and its been out less than six months. 

 

I also bought (???) the Haiku book, but seems Autosport doesn't want to confirm my order. Money is out of the account, but they say they don't have my order (browser crashed while ordering).



#2174 Taxi

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 09:18

There’s no conspiracy, Weber was simply an average or worse F1 driver.

 

You don't beat all your team mates except one being average. You don't win 9 races and 13 poles being "average or worse" even having good cars. Webber was a formidable racing driver, very very fast in qualifiyng and races and capable of fighting the best on his day. The diference is that Vettel is one of the best talents ever and he was very consistent from 2010/13. 

 

You could say Grosjean/Kmag/Perez are average. Not Webber. 


Edited by Taxi, 13 December 2018 - 09:20.


#2175 baddog

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 10:05

You don't beat all your team mates except one being average. You don't win 9 races and 13 poles being "average or worse" even having good cars. Webber was a formidable racing driver, very very fast in qualifiyng and races and capable of fighting the best on his day. The diference is that Vettel is one of the best talents ever and he was very consistent from 2010/13. 

 

You could say Grosjean/Kmag/Perez are average. Not Webber. 

 

Its the usual circular argument.. Webber must be crap because Vettel beat him handily and after all Vettel is ordinary because he had crap teammates like Webber. Its nonsense but predictable.



#2176 as65p

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 11:53

Its the usual circular argument.. Webber must be crap because Vettel beat him handily and after all Vettel is ordinary because he had crap teammates like Webber. Its nonsense but predictable.

 

Sure. All we know is, Vettel is faster than Bourdais, Webber and Kimi but slower than Ricciardo.

 

The problem only starts when someone (usually rather quickly) tries to argue that defeat vs. Ricciardo doesn't really count because... <whatever>. At that point it's free-for-all again to argue that the the wins vs. Bourdais, Webber and Kimi don't really count either because... different <whatever>.

 

Lean back and watch it happen! :D



#2177 AlexPrime

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 16:28

The problem only starts when someone (usually rather quickly) tries to argue that defeat vs. Ricciardo doesn't really count because... <whatever>.

It very definetly counts as it established RIC as a top driver. However next year he was outscored by Kvyatt, which shows that single year comparisons can be tricky. For example, this year, Ferrari could have taken Ricciardo, which would have been logical, if they were convinced that he is faster and better. They did chose Leclerc instead - again, maybe he is even faster, we'll see next year.
But I wouldn't say that 2014 didn't count. Everybody knows now that Ric is a great driver. Whether he'd achieve the results to show this however might be crucial for his final F1 legacy. I also find it amusing that he cheekily agreed with a journalist that he made Seb ran from RBR - and now Max arguably did the same to him...



#2178 FrontWing

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 17:53

Tell you what? I am quite sure there is no-one actually FASTER than Vettel. His ability in a scrap is mediocre and always has been, but his ability to put the car at the front and win by sheer pace, and to user tyres and fuel well while retaining pace, is as good as anyone, and that is a WDC deserving status. Raikkonen has been inconsistent by comparison and also shared the same tendency to get in silly scraps.

Of course the problem is that Hamilton has risen to match that speed while retaining his ability in the fight, which makes him a better driver overall. I'm not even going to suggest Vettel is, as a whole package, better than Hamilton, because he is not right now, no-one is.


Hmmm, match Vettel's speed? Lewis has always had the speed.

#2179 baddog

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 02:44

Hmmm, match Vettel's speed? Lewis has always had the speed.

 

Wasn't putting him down there, he has always been extremely fast but his ability to do it when needed and keep doing it has improved even further recently.



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#2180 baddog

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 02:49

Sure. All we know is, Vettel is faster than Bourdais, Webber and Kimi but slower than Ricciardo.

 

The problem only starts when someone (usually rather quickly) tries to argue that defeat vs. Ricciardo doesn't really count because... <whatever>. At that point it's free-for-all again to argue that the the wins vs. Bourdais, Webber and Kimi don't really count either because... different <whatever>.

 

Lean back and watch it happen! :D

 

Oh that year is a tricky one no question.  Vettel very clearly under-performed (surely noone would suggest he drove his best that year) and Ricciardo was fast and driving very well.

 

Anyone doing the 'x was faster than y in one year and y faster than z in another year therefore I can compare x and z is going down a route that rarely leads anywhere useful. You have to actually watch the races and follow whole careers to build strong opinions.

 

With Vettel vs Webber we have numerous years/an entire career indicating Webber was a damned good driver, and several years of good data that Vettel was almost always significantly better than him.



#2181 Jovanotti

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 09:06

Meanwhile at the Sauber Christmas party

 

https://www.instagra.../p/BrYTspJh29L/


Edited by Jovanotti, 20 December 2018 - 09:06.


#2182 boillot

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 17:06

Oh that year is a tricky one no question.  Vettel very clearly under-performed (surely noone would suggest he drove his best that year) and Ricciardo was fast and driving very well.

 

Anyone doing the 'x was faster than y in one year and y faster than z in another year therefore I can compare x and z is going down a route that rarely leads anywhere useful. You have to actually watch the races and follow whole careers to build strong opinions.

 

With Vettel vs Webber we have numerous years/an entire career indicating Webber was a damned good driver, and several years of good data that Vettel was almost always significantly better than him.

Actually, Webber matched Vettel in 2010, one may say he was even a bit better.

Then he lost his edge and was relegated to 2nd driver status from 2011 on.



#2183 baddog

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Posted 21 December 2018 - 06:33

Actually, Webber matched Vettel in 2010, one may say he was even a bit better.

Then he lost his edge and was relegated to 2nd driver status from 2011 on.

 

You might say that but you would be wrong



#2184 boillot

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Posted 21 December 2018 - 23:51

You might say that but you would be wrong

Or I wouldn’t...

#2185 baddog

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 01:29

webber lost to vettel and alonso and deserved to. I don't see a rational case for suggesting otherwise.

#2186 boillot

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 22:11

webber lost to vettel and alonso and deserved to. I don't see a rational case for suggesting otherwise.

Nobody says so. My point is that he was actually a driver of similar (although a bit lesser) quality than Vettel at his peak, while at the same time never being a top driver.



#2187 baddog

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 23:24

Nobody says so. My point is that he was actually a driver of similar (although a bit lesser) quality than Vettel at his peak, while at the same time never being a top driver.

 

Yes we can see where you are going with this (you only seem to have one point, 'Vettel is crap', and you repeat it from many angles), but Webber was a very good driver, and in his best year came close to Seb but not close enough to come top 2.

 

The only logic for saying he was mediocre is that Seb beat him and you think Seb is not that good.. but this is a circular argument.



#2188 boillot

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 17:45

Yes we can see where you are going with this (you only seem to have one point, 'Vettel is crap', and you repeat it from many angles), but Webber was a very good driver, and in his best year came close to Seb but not close enough to come top 2.

 

The only logic for saying he was mediocre is that Seb beat him and you think Seb is not that good.. but this is a circular argument.

It is perhaps a circular argument but the circle will be broken if Vettel, despite all these years in good cars, wins no more titles after 2013.

And he won't.



#2189 thefinalapex

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 09:32

It is perhaps a circular argument but the circle will be broken if Vettel, despite all these years in good cars, wins no more titles after 2013.
And he won't.


Youre a sad case, did Vettel steel your girlfriend or something?