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Ricciardo joins Renault


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#2301 enjoyingRBR

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:04

If Renault are really investing properly, that is a good first step to up the performance.

Together with the signing of Ricciardo, it’s a clear sign they are serious about their ambitions.

Similar to how Honda improved, Remault has the scope to improve too.


Most of you guys talk about the PU, while its crystal clear the biggest part of renaults improvement has to come from the chassis. RBR has proven that bigtime over the past years

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#2302 Heyli

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:04

I was talking in terms of reaching recently pretty much double what they started with.

 

"Renault's push to increase its works Formula 1 team's headcount by 50% since rejoining the grid hurt its efficiency and "bang-for-buck" while developing its 2018 challenger.
 
Since reclaiming 'Team Enstone' from Lotus ahead of the 2016 season, Renault has been on an aggressive recruitment drive that will have boosted a staff of 470 to 700 by the end of this year."

 

https://www.autospor...ult-bangforbuck

 

It seems a little strange to me though that a number of Max fans seem overly concerned about Renault and Ricciardo's move. Wonder why that is? Don't see anywhere near the same sort of debate from Dan fans about Max or Red Bull in any of those related threads at the moment.

That´s because those threads keep getting closed because of heated discussions... :)



#2303 Requiem84

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 11:20

Most of you guys talk about the PU, while its crystal clear the biggest part of renaults improvement has to come from the chassis. RBR has proven that bigtime over the past years


The investments relate to both Viry and Enstone if I understand correctly.

#2304 Rupert

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 12:14

Mark theswords, even with the big invetment of Renault, RB will still be much faster despite the Honda PU.



#2305 Reddington

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 12:27

I was talking in terms of reaching recently pretty much double what they started with.

"Renault's push to increase its works Formula 1 team's headcount by 50% since rejoining the grid hurt its efficiency and "bang-for-buck" while developing its 2018 challenger.

Since reclaiming 'Team Enstone' from Lotus ahead of the 2016 season, Renault has been on an aggressive recruitment drive that will have boosted a staff of 470 to 700 by the end of this year."

https://www.autospor...ult-bangforbuck

It seems a little strange to me though that a number of Max fans seem overly concerned about Renault and Ricciardo's move. Wonder why that is? Don't see anywhere near the same sort of debate from Dan fans about Max or Red Bull in any of those related threads at the moment.


Well this fan hopes Renault will be competitive. Imagine the on track battles Max and Dan would have driving for different teams!

#2306 A3

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 17:33

 

It seems a little strange to me though that a number of Max fans seem overly concerned about Renault and Ricciardo's move. Wonder why that is? Don't see anywhere near the same sort of debate from Dan fans about Max or Red Bull in any of those related threads at the moment.

 

Uhm, the topic is litterally titled "Ricciardo joins Renault". There are no "Max stays at Red Bull threads as this was no news. Very simple.

 

I've learned a lot about Dan in the last 2 years and I like the guy. I still don't understand his move and it fascinates me. I fear he made a big mistake and may have effectively killed his chances of ever becoming a WDC. 



#2307 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 17:43

Uhm, the topic is litterally titled "Ricciardo joins Renault". There are no "Max stays at Red Bull threads as this was no news. Very simple.

 

I've learned a lot about Dan in the last 2 years and I like the guy. I still don't understand his move and it fascinates me. I fear he made a big mistake and may have effectively killed his chances of ever becoming a WDC. 

 

Common knowledge would dictate that he has made a poor move. But common knowledge doesn't always apply. Look at Alonso and Seb's moves to Ferrari. Both Alonso's moves to McLaren. Dan knows like we all do that RB are building around Max as they did around Vettel. He's the future for that team and he was never going to win a WDC with Max there. He knew this so left to keep his sanity is my view. And Renault was his only option. That team does have history of winning. Stranger things have happened. No one quite expected Renault to hand it to Ferrari and McLaren the way they did in 2005 and 2006. It could happen again in the next couple of years, no one knows it won't. Dan's taking a chance, why not.



#2308 Requiem84

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 17:55

Rosberg won while the team was built around Hamilton... at RB he had at least a chance for short term succes.

All I see him do now is capitalize on the drivers market in 2020 if places open up at Ferrari / Merc.

#2309 Fatgadget

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 18:16

Most of you guys talk about the PU, while its crystal clear the biggest part of renaults improvement has to come from the chassis. RBR has proven that bigtime over the past years

Only because they spend gazillions on chassis development alone. While others have to develop and build engines as well!



#2310 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 18:20

RS-19 big improvement, 50hp increase from new engine, but doubts remain over turbo / bearings - https://it.motorspor...-turbo/4317992/

#2311 Talisman

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 18:44

I was talking in terms of reaching recently pretty much double what they started with.

"Renault's push to increase its works Formula 1 team's headcount by 50% since rejoining the grid hurt its efficiency and "bang-for-buck" while developing its 2018 challenger.

Since reclaiming 'Team Enstone' from Lotus ahead of the 2016 season, Renault has been on an aggressive recruitment drive that will have boosted a staff of 470 to 700 by the end of this year."

https://www.autospor...ult-bangforbuck

It seems a little strange to me though that a number of Max fans seem overly concerned about Renault and Ricciardo's move. Wonder why that is? Don't see anywhere near the same sort of debate from Dan fans about Max or Red Bull in any of those related threads at the moment.


Doubling the headcount from when Renault took over Lotus isn’t difficult. You may remember that money was so short that other teams and FOM took to feeding Lotus team members on race weekends as they were often not supplied by their own team. Given the existence of the team was in doubt as Renault were prepared to let Lotus go to the wall in order to scare the owners into selling on terms the French were prepared to accept, most staff had left.

I wouldn’t use that as a good indicator for how much Renault has invested into the team. Companies House filings on the other hand...

#2312 Ragnar668

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 19:00

Only because they spend gazillions on chassis development alone. While others have to develop and build engines as well!

 

Yeah right, RB got the engines for free



#2313 A3

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 19:00

Common knowledge would dictate that he has made a poor move. But common knowledge doesn't always apply. Look at Alonso and Seb's moves to Ferrari. Both Alonso's moves to McLaren. Dan knows like we all do that RB are building around Max as they did around Vettel. He's the future for that team and he was never going to win a WDC with Max there. He knew this so left to keep his sanity is my view. And Renault was his only option. That team does have history of winning. Stranger things have happened. No one quite expected Renault to hand it to Ferrari and McLaren the way they did in 2005 and 2006. It could happen again in the next couple of years, no one knows it won't. Dan's taking a chance, why not.

 

I think Dan would have had more of a chance if he had stayed at Red Bull. If they would have had a winning car I don't believe for a second that they would favour Max over Dan if Max has the same type of start to a season as in 2018. Even if he'd lose out to Max, he'd still be in the spotlights more than next year.

Like you, I somewhat understand the move to Renault, but at the same time I feel he's knowingly given up his WDC dream with it. That must have hurt him and I'm curious if he can stay positive. Yes, stranger things have happened, but the history of the engine situation doesn't give me much hope.



#2314 Neno

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 19:13

Yeah right, RB got the engines for free

Customers are basically paying cents for what building engine and their development costs at least in RB case. If it was any other way RB and Mclaren would long time ago build one. While they are not free, their price is minimal and basically in RB case non existant to budget they are spending on chassis developement.  We talking less than 15% price of their overall yearly budget. 


Edited by Neno, 30 December 2018 - 19:15.


#2315 Fatgadget

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 19:15

Yeah right, RB got the engines for free

Eh! Its the development and research in eking out  that last tiny  power advantage that costs the big $£€ !..Do RB contribute to that? and why do you think they have finally bitten the bullet and jumped exclusively into bed with Honda eh? :rolleyes:


Edited by Fatgadget, 01 January 2019 - 21:03.


#2316 A3

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 19:24

Customers are basically paying cents for what building engine and their development costs at least in RB case. If it was any other way RB and Mclaren would long time ago build one. While they are not free, their price is minimal and basically in RB case non existant to budget they are spending on chassis developement.  We talking less than 15% price of their overall yearly budget. 

 

 

Renault has been in F1 as an engine supplier for a long long time. They are a car manufacturing brand, like Mercedes and Ferrari.

Red Bull, Haas, Williams, Sauber, McLaren and Force India obviously are not. 

 

So of course Renault will never drive with another engine than their own. They also already have much of the knowlegde in house. 

 

If you want to win in F1 AND do it with your own engine, it's clear you have to spend big bucks. Mercedes and Ferrari spend about €100 million more than Red Bull. And Renault about €150 million less than Red Bull. 


Edited by A3, 30 December 2018 - 19:27.


#2317 A3

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 19:26

Only because they spend gazillions on chassis development alone. While others have to develop and build engines as well!

 

Only 2 other manufactures do so. They spend much, much more than Red Bull even and they finished above Red Bull in the WCC standings. 

 

Maybe Renault can use Honda engines so they can spend more on the chassis? :drunk:



#2318 Ragnar668

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 22:28

 and why do you think they have finally bitten the bullet and jumped exclusively into bed with Honda eh? :rolleyes:

 

because...................everything A3 just said, but you knew that already eh



#2319 A3

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 22:52

and why do you think they have finally bitten the bullet and jumped exclusively into bed with Honda eh? :rolleyes:

Because they were tired of paying too much for empty promises probably.

But maybe Renault will finally come good. As I said, it’s going to be interesting.

Edited by A3, 30 December 2018 - 22:54.


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#2320 lbennie

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 23:21

Another Ricciardo thread being dominated by max fans.



#2321 mwf1

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 02:40

RS-19 big improvement, 50hp increase from new engine, but doubts remain over turbo / bearings - https://it.motorspor...-turbo/4317992/

Thats a great read and really does give some hope of some success in 19 im suprised no one else here has made any comment on it 



#2322 mwf1

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 02:48

because...................everything A3 just said, but you knew that already eh

they left because Renault gave them the boot so there only option was Honda someone else found this article a few pages back .bbcf1 


Edited by mwf1, 31 December 2018 - 02:50.


#2323 gowebber

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 05:44

Thats a great read and really does give some hope of some success in 19 im suprised no one else here has made any comment on it 

 

Yeah it is. So it sounds like Dan liked what he saw particularly on the Renault engine development side for 2019 which might have swung the deal.


Edited by gowebber, 31 December 2018 - 05:44.


#2324 Requiem84

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 05:49

50 hp gain compared to spec 2 or spec 3?

If it is the latter, they basically bridge the gap to Merc and Ferrari! That’s massive. 50hp is like 1 second per lap?

#2325 Requiem84

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 06:52

Another Ricciardo thread being dominated by max fans.


Try not to be obsessed with fans of another driver.. and rather contribute to this topic with relevant content?

There are enough interesting things to discuss in this topic!

#2326 Ragnar668

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 07:40

they left because Renault gave them the boot so there only option was Honda someone else found this article a few pages back .bbcf1 

 

You found it a few pages back? mind posting the link here?



#2327 A3

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 08:47

https://forums.autos...ault/?p=8617254

 

https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/41265779

 

 

This article from june 2019 confirms that I think:


Abiteboul said that he was not really taken aback that Red Bull elected to go the Honda route, having originally indicated last year that it did not want its supply deal to go on beyond 2018.

"Not surprised whatsoever, frankly," he said about Red Bull's choice.

"I think first we tend to forget this is a confirmation – it is more a status quo actually.

"Last year in Singapore we announced a comprehensive set of agreements with both the Red Bull group and McLaren.

"This was featuring a termination of Toro Rosso at the end of 2017 and termination of Red Bull at the end of 2018, even though Red Bull had requested to be a bit more vague about that topic.

"It is more that it went in a different direction when Red Bull requested to us an offer, as there was a bit of indecision about which way to go.

"For us it is more a confirmation of what was in the air, and which is also a strategic and commercial decision more than purely a technical or sporting decision from Red Bull."

 

But I don't read that as Red Bull being forced to Honda, as Abiteboul explains in the same article:


Abiteboul suggested that the added attraction of a works relationship with Honda, allied to potential financial benefit, was a clear motivation for Red Bull.

"Just like when we returned to the sport as a works team, it was important for Red Bull to renew and get back to a position of being a works team," explained Abiteboul.

"It could not be with Renault, it had to be with another entity and they found in Honda a perfect match.

"So I am sure it is a mix of factors and parameters. I am sure that there something related to performance, but it is very clear there is much more than this.

"And there are a number of things that we could not offer, like financial support, like access to core facilities, because our priority and focus is on the consolidation of the performance of Renault Sport F1."

 

https://www.motorspo...046804/3125218/



#2328 A3

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 08:54

Thats a great read and really does give some hope of some success in 19 im suprised no one else here has made any comment on it 

 

Meh, not sure what's great about it to be honest. There's no quote from anyone on anything, it's just a writer's opinion.

 

The engine is rumoured to have 50bhp more (than what?) but the turbo will have reliability issues. Ok.

 

And this:


 in addition to the fact that Daniel was saturated with the unbearable climate that lived in Red Bull,

 

:lol:



#2329 Ivanhoe

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 09:05

https://www.skysport...ri-and-red-bull

#2330 ernestomodena

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 10:16

And Prost added: "I don't think you can beat the top teams, but let's wait for Red Bull-Honda because there's a question mark there."

Well there not going to fight for victories there just saying it right there,



#2331 gowebber

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 04:02

Lol Ricciardo pulling off some dance moves behind the BBQ.  Warming up some celebration moves in case he manages to bag a podium for Renault in 2019?   :D

 

https://www.gpfans.c...r-celebrations/

 

 Isn't that the same tune off Happy Gilmore??  :lol:

 


Edited by gowebber, 01 January 2019 - 04:12.


#2332 statman

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 14:54

50 hp gain compared to spec 2 or spec 3?

If it is the latter, they basically bridge the gap to Merc and Ferrari! That’s massive. 50hp is like 1 second per lap?

 

again?

 

first couple of hits for 'closing the gap':

 

2015:
 
 
 
2016:
 
 
2017:
 
 
 
 
2018:
 
 
 
 
 

Edited by statman, 01 January 2019 - 14:54.


#2333 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 18:52

I don’t think we’ll see a Renault powered car on the podium next year.... That is how poor their situation is. I wouldn’t be too surprised if they decide to withdraw before 2021. Daniel made an awful mistake.

#2334 Reddington

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 01:26

 

This!

 

And I still hope, even when I dislike Cyril with a vengeance, that they come good, but man, on the bases of past promises by Renault and what was actually achieved, it's a wonder they still have customer teams.



#2335 mwf1

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 01:38

You found it a few pages back? mind posting the link here?

sorry i thought i posted it but obviously not https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/41265779



#2336 FPV GTHO

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 02:07

I don’t think we’ll see a Renault powered car on the podium next year.... That is how poor their situation is. I wouldn’t be too surprised if they decide to withdraw before 2021. Daniel made an awful mistake.


A non Renault podium all year isn't saying much. They've only gotten there since 2014 off the back of Red Bull. Even Ferrari haven't had any podiums outside of the Scuderia.

#2337 gowebber

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:02

again?

first couple of hits for 'closing the gap':

2015:

Abiteboul says Ferrari success shows Mercedes can be caught

Renault wants to halve gap to Mercedes in 2015

2016:

Renault 'not expecting miracles' in 2016

2017:

Abiteboul is looking for Renault to close the gap

Renault: Red Bull 'wrong' about our Formula 1 engine developments

Abiteboul: 2017 will be more of a consolidation year

2018:

Renault Compromised Reliability for Performance During 2017

Abiteboul explains the deficit to leading trio

Renault boss Cyril Abiteboul expects engine to be on par with Mercedes and Ferrari

Renault reveal 'significant' engine power deficit

Renault Boss 'Worried' About Honda's F1 Investment

Yet despite all this they have been steadily improving each season. I can understand the pessimism however I believe you cant really compare from previous years as 2019 will be a whole other level mainly due to finally being able to reap the benefits of the significant staff and resource changes put in place over the last couple of years.

Edited by gowebber, 02 January 2019 - 08:14.


#2338 A3

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:25

No we can't compare because 2019 is just 2 days old. Until Melbourne qualifying we have no idea if it's again the same empty promises or that they finally came through.

#2339 gowebber

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:47

No we can't compare because 2019 is just 2 days old. Until Melbourne qualifying we have no idea if it's again the same empty promises or that they finally came through.


Of course that is true however it wasn't what I meant and your nitpicking again so I'll rephrase that and say I believe you can't make negative assumptions based on previous years for reasons I listed previously.

Edited by gowebber, 02 January 2019 - 09:51.


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#2340 Maxioos

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:34

Of course that is true however it wasn't what I meant and your nitpicking again so I'll rephrase that and say I believe you can't make negative assumptions based on previous years for reasons I listed previously.

 

The same counts for positive assumptions doesn't it? While that's constantly done with budget/facility/improvement (places, not speed % towards top 3)/etc reasoning by my reading of it.



#2341 krapmeister

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:10

No we can't compare because 2019 is just 2 days old. Until Melbourne qualifying we have no idea if it's again the same empty promises or that they finally came through.

 

TBH I would give them until the start of the European season, Melbourne in particular isn't usually a good representation. For example Red Bull almost always has a slow start to the season even during their heyday years, unfortunately for Webber (and later Ricciardo).Though having said that what's the bet Max wins it this year...


Edited by krapmeister, 02 January 2019 - 11:12.


#2342 gowebber

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 12:29

The same counts for positive assumptions doesn't it? While that's constantly done with budget/facility/improvement (places, not speed % towards top 3)/etc reasoning by my reading of it.

 

I don't think so. I believe 2019 is a whole different scenario with the changed regs and significantly improved staff and resources at Renault (including Dans addition) giving more reason to be positive rather than negative. Especially given those positive statements like we have seen from Prost and McLaren boss Zak Brown recently. 


Edited by gowebber, 02 January 2019 - 12:49.


#2343 v@sh

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 12:30

Rosberg won while the team was built around Hamilton... at RB he had at least a chance for short term succes.

All I see him do now is capitalize on the drivers market in 2020 if places open up at Ferrari / Merc.

 

Did Mercedes ever come out and say they were going to build the team around Hamilton as RBR have done with Max?

 

Also from a marketing standpoint, a German driver winning for a German marque (as much as Rosberg is also Finnish) is great for the marketing honchos @ Mercedes as much as it is for RBR to make Verstappen the youngest ever WDC - and also again to validate Marko's young drivers program.

 

I highly doubt an Australian driver winning for a drinks company is going to help his chances in such a small market. Rosberg had a lot more going for him than Ricciardo ever had from the big wigs in the team in terms of support.



#2344 jules153

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 12:34

Hearing RIC say that Merc were messing him around makes me think more than ever he should have had a good manager... :rolleyes:



#2345 goldenboy

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 12:44

Hearing RIC say that Merc were messing him around makes me think more than ever he should have had a good manager... :rolleyes:

Yeah he sounds rather naive about it all.

#2346 A3

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 13:54

Did Mercedes ever come out and say they were going to build the team around Hamilton as RBR have done with Max?


Meh, I think too much weight is put on the statement "we want Max to become the youngest world champion with Red Bull". The team never said they would build the team around him, they said Max could build a team around him. As in, his side of the garage. This was said when he extended his contract but many people apparently read this wrong.

Max would still have to put in the results.

Horner:

Horner insists however that Red Bull has not favoured Verstappen over Ricciardo.

“The number one driver in this team is the driver who is ahead on the track," he stated. "That’s the simple rule.

"And there is zero favouritism in the way that we operate the team, from one driver to the other. Daniel will tell you that very openly.


Even Webber advised Daniel to stay with Red Bull. If there's anyone who knows about favouritism within the team, it's him.

Edited by A3, 02 January 2019 - 13:56.


#2347 GhostR

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 13:57

I was talking in terms of reaching recently pretty much double what they started with.

 

"Renault's push to increase its works Formula 1 team's headcount by 50% since rejoining the grid hurt its efficiency and "bang-for-buck" while developing its 2018 challenger.
 
Since reclaiming 'Team Enstone' from Lotus ahead of the 2016 season, Renault has been on an aggressive recruitment drive that will have boosted a staff of 470 to 700 by the end of this year."

 

https://www.autospor...ult-bangforbuck

 

It seems a little strange to me though that a number of Max fans seem overly concerned about Renault and Ricciardo's move. Wonder why that is? Don't see anywhere near the same sort of debate from Dan fans about Max or Red Bull in any of those related threads at the moment.

 

Coming to this a little late, but you do realise that a doubling would be a) a 100% increase, not the 50% stated, and b) staff count of 940, not the 700 stated.

 

They've made a significant increase, yes, but to say "double" is overstating it by about ... double! ( :p)


Edited by GhostR, 02 January 2019 - 13:57.


#2348 A3

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 14:02

Gowebber is just very enthusiastic. :D

Edited by A3, 02 January 2019 - 14:02.


#2349 Maxioos

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 15:06

I don't think so. I believe 2019 is a whole different scenario with the changed regs and significantly improved staff and resources at Renault (including Dans addition) giving more reason to be positive rather than negative. Especially given those positive statements like we have seen from Prost and McLaren boss Zak Brown recently. 

 

I'm not negative either, i think, just slightly less positive.

 

I think, biggest change, and quite worst scenario (no real in-season development need) is Renault will be lonely in the big gab between top 3 and midfield. Too far from top 3 to justify big in-season investment if p4 is safe by big gab towards p5 in WDC. Best scenario is they are pushed whole season too maximal in-season development and fighting. If it's for reaching top 3 (or higher) or for getting the p4 doesn't even matter imo. it's the spirit and "push" that will bring the team further imo.. 

 

Edit: What also plays part is, Mercedes has all reason to be positive, RBR is openly very positive and Ferrari is also reasonably stable for some years. Their basis to start from is very strong and it's not really likely one of them, let stand all 3 will drop the ball. And by that, it all has to come from the other teams themselves too catch up. The last 3 or 4 years show a clear and constant difference between top 3 and midfield that indicate it's a very difficult gab to close. 

 

If FI can drive podiums in past years, for sure some opportunities for Renault will come also, if capable to capitalize on it is dependent on lots of factors.


Edited by Maxioos, 02 January 2019 - 15:17.


#2350 ExEd

ExEd
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Posted 02 January 2019 - 15:53

I'm not negative either, i think, just slightly less positive.

 

I think, biggest change, and quite worst scenario (no real in-season development need) is Renault will be lonely in the big gab between top 3 and midfield. Too far from top 3 to justify big in-season investment if p4 is safe by big gab towards p5 in WDC. Best scenario is they are pushed whole season too maximal in-season development and fighting. If it's for reaching top 3 (or higher) or for getting the p4 doesn't even matter imo. it's the spirit and "push" that will bring the team further imo.. 

 

Edit: What also plays part is, Mercedes has all reason to be positive, RBR is openly very positive and Ferrari is also reasonably stable for some years. Their basis to start from is very strong and it's not really likely one of them, let stand all 3 will drop the ball. And by that, it all has to come from the other teams themselves too catch up. The last 3 or 4 years show a clear and constant difference between top 3 and midfield that indicate it's a very difficult gab to close. 

 

If FI can drive podiums in past years, for sure some opportunities for Renault will come also, if capable to capitalize on it is dependent on lots of factors.

 

 

Agree, its very difficult for the rest at the moment.

But then again ,to get in topic , who knows ? I remember I was so mad at Lewis leaving McLaren to struggling at the time merc , shocked by the "mistake".

Not to mention crazy JB to join Lewis at McLaren.

I mean I dont think Dan will suddenly sweep the field but you never know.

 

There are many sides of a deal that we might keep missing. its not always about performance.

People say about RB building in Max ,I don't think so, but what if thats not the case. What if Dan is the one he wants to build a team around him and he can't do that RB. 

Also money talks too. PR clauses , sponsorship % etc.  lots of stuff going around and we can't be sure what has been offered. 


Edited by ExEd, 02 January 2019 - 15:54.