28 replies to this topic

[sinnae404]

It was evident in the early 1980s that any action or slow-mo ‘replays’ were simply of the action that had already been seen on the master feed.

In the mid to late 1980s, we began to see replays of incidents that had occurred elsewhere on the circuit and picked up by cameras that weren’t transmitting to the main feed at the time.

 

I’m intrigued to know, in the ‘pre-digital’ era, how this replay system worked.

Does it suggest that the feed from every camera was recorded in full on tape?  Did the camera operator communicate in his headset, that he had captured an incident?

 

An obvious anomaly to me is the 1992 Australian Grand Prix, where the Senna-Mansell collision was only ever broadcast from one angle, despite it being obvious that two cameras had captured the incident.

 

[Gary C]

Between 1997 and 2002 I worked freelance for FOM doing replays, pitlane camera and graphics. For the replays back then we recorded all cameras onto hard drives (an early version of EVS), but before that, in the 80's, I know at one point the BBC recorded all cameras on individual VHS machines and replayed from them. It would have been an Assistant Directors job to look out for incidents and decide to air them. At FOM in about 2000 doing replays we could actually talk to our cameramen out on circuit...likewise they could press a button on the camera when they saw an incident and we'd get a red light at our end to go and look at it, that's if we weren't already doing it. Incidentally it was my replay from Schumacher's on board for the incident with Villeneuve at Jerez that finally decided the championship.

Edited by Gary C, 08 August 2018 - 08:36.

[absinthedude]

In the beginning, there was the "Instant replay" video disc recorder, which used a magnetic disc to store a few seconds of video. This could be replayed in slow motion. The machine was invented circa 1966 and was *very* expensive....but then it would also have been horrifically expensive at the time to record the feed from each and every camera. It  was a costly and novel item, hence the words "ACTION REPLAY" would often be inserted into the corner of the picture during a replay. 

 

Later, analogue then digital video tape was used to capture the feed from all the cameras, and it became possible to offer slow motion action replays from multiple angles and of incidents not picked up in the master feed. It was not uncommon for commentators working from a monitor to be unsure if a scene was live or a replay. 

 

With HDD recording it's cheaper and easier. Everything can be captured and played back at any desired speed. TV cameras are far more capable in terms of having fast shutter speeds and sensitive sensors. The kind of ultra slow motion we get today would have been impossible on a live broadcast even 20 years ago. One needed a film camera to get slow motion slower than about 1/4 speed. 

 

 

http://www.cedmagic....s-100-deck.html

Edited by absinthedude, 08 August 2018 - 12:21.

[dolomite]

I can clearly remember Monaco 1979 as the first time I watched a broadcast where replays were shown that were missed in the original live feed. I think the Pironi/Lauda accident at Mirabeau was caught in this manner, for instance.

[sinnae404]

Thanks for the replies all.

I would take it, then, that on some occasions perhaps not every single camera was configured to record to VHS, especially back in the day when it was a different host broadcaster in every country.  Therefore sometimes we got the replays, and other times we didn't.

Channel 9 in Australia were always pretty good like this, especially notable during the 1989 Australian Grand Prix when there were so many incidents occurring around the track away from the main feed.  Which makes it all the more puzzling, and personally frustrating to me, that they couldn't replay the 1992 collision in this manner.

 

I'm amazed nowdays, to see an incident like Brendan Hartley's British GP practice crash, covered from no less than about 5 different angles!  Things have definitely come a long way.

[nmansellfan]

Very interesting info! Absinthedude, there were (on the world feed) some super slo-mo replays shown of cars passing through the Ostcurve chicane at the end of the '96 German GP, the first I can remember from a dedicated high-fps camera. Although technically part of the live broadcast, I'm not sure if they would have been able to do it during the race.

Sinnae404, when you refer to two cameras capturing the Senna-Mansell shunt at Adelaide, was the other camera the one high up on the outside of the entrance to the final corner?

[absinthedude]

@nmansellfan

 

Yep, I remember the 1996 ultra slow motion camera they had positioned at the Ostkurve chicane, it was considered something very new and special at the time. That could have been a cutting edge or even prototype fast shutter CCD camera....I think the first use of CCD TV cameras in F1 was circa 1990 but they weren't capable of ultra slow motion.

 

You can guess that camera technology is one of my things.

[Gary C]

Yes at FOM we used to be able to add in (electronically) a high speed shutter to any camera so that we could do super slomo replays.

[Catalina Park]

Not a GP but I had a big crash at Bathurst in 1995 in one of the support races. When the race finished the Channel 7 cameraman opposite where I finished shouted to me that he had "caught the whole thing" then he paused and said "as long as they taped it".
He said that although they had over 30 cameras at the track they only had 6 recorders.
It turned out that all six were recording an impromptu cricket game in the paddock while the director had a lunch break.

[sinnae404]

Very interesting info! Absinthedude, there were (on the world feed) some super slo-mo replays shown of cars passing through the Ostcurve chicane at the end of the '96 German GP, the first I can remember from a dedicated high-fps camera. Although technically part of the live broadcast, I'm not sure if they would have been able to do it during the race.

Sinnae404, when you refer to two cameras capturing the Senna-Mansell shunt at Adelaide, was the other camera the one high up on the outside of the entrance to the final corner?

 

 

They also had that super slow-mo in place at the Ostkurve in 1992 - the first year that the new corner was used.  Strangely I don't remember seeing it in '93 though.  The resolution wasn't great, but it did show the movement of the cars on the suspension and also the sparks being generated from the front wing endplates.

 

Yes you are right - I'm referring to the high camera and the one at track level.  They cut from the high camera to the low one just as the incident occurred, so clearly they both captured the action - but I assume it was never recorded as I've not seen it since (incidentally I was at the race, and I felt certain I saw the high angle replay at the airport, but now I feel certain I imagined it as it doesn't even appear in the FIA official review)

[sinnae404]

Between 1997 and 2002 I worked freelance for FOM doing replays, pitlane camera and graphics. For the replays back then we recorded all cameras onto hard drives (an early version of EVS), but before that, in the 80's, I know at one point the BBC recorded all cameras on individual VHS machines and replayed from them. It would have been an Assistant Directors job to look out for incidents and decide to air them. At FOM in about 2000 doing replays we could actually talk to our cameramen out on circuit...likewise they could press a button on the camera when they saw an incident and we'd get a red light at our end to go and look at it, that's if we weren't already doing it. Incidentally it was my replay from Schumacher's on board for the incident with Villeneuve at Jerez that finally decided the championship.

 

Gary,

In the BBC days did the camera operators have access to the commentary?  Sometimes at the British GP they seemed to switch their focus to whichever car Murray and James were talking about

[Gary C]

No, they certainly didn't it would be way too confusing. They are all linked on headphones to  talkback to the main Director,  he's the one who tells them what to shoot as he is the one who dictates who and what they are covering at any given time during the race. If they aren't 'on air' then they will just point the camera at the next car as it goes past their position until they are told otherwise.

[Zmeej]

Wow! Gary C!

Cool to be part of racing history.

And on behalf of all fans o' Jax - thank you.

[E1pix]

Not a GP but I had a big crash at Bathurst in 1995 in one of the support races. When the race finished the Channel 7 cameraman opposite where I finished shouted to me that he had "caught the whole thing" then he paused and said "as long as they taped it".He said that although they had over 30 cameras at the track they only had 6 recorders.It turned out that all six were recording an impromptu cricket game in the paddock while the director had a lunch break.

One wonders, CP, if not having that tape is more a good thing than bad...

Perhaps fun at parties, but then increasing that morning headache. :-)

[teegeefla]

I have produced and/or directed network motorsports in the USA since back in the early nineties, starting with tape-delayed NHRA drag racing.  We initially had seven track coverage cameras and only three one inch tape machines that were replay capable, and 2 smaller, non-playback tape machines.  We recorded the line cut of the race on one machine and one backup, switched individual cameras (including in-car camera feeds) to another machine and then had a tape operator do an alternate "subcut" of the race as well.  We rarely missed anything but would have loved to have more record capability and therefore more replay opportunities.

 

By the mid-nineties, the EVS machine came along.  It used hard drives instead of tape, and early versions could take four cameras in at once and play back two of them.  With two EVS units, you could then handle up to 8 camera sources for replays with one operator handling each machine.  About that time we began doing the NHRA events live, so it made our coverage complete enough that we added more cameras and needed more machines.

 

The replays were basically handled by a tape producer who looked for the best replay angles, and then told me and the director which machine had the best replays and suggested the best sequence.  The tape room in the truck was also configured for editing individual shots into sequences and full highlight packages. The tape room was also linked with a separate truck that handled the pit cameras and the various on-board cameras.

 

The companies I worked for also covered sprint cars, motorcycle road racing, motorcross, stock car racing, offshore and hydroplane racing, and we would almost exclusively use the EVS machines for isolated camera recordings and replays.  At the end of the day, we would transfer the best material to a tape that would serve as an archive of that race.

 

During my time doing the last years of the Champ Car series, we could have 20 or more video feeds, comprised of track cameras, pit cameras and on board cameras, but never enough EVS machines to handle all sources.  When I see current race coverage, such as F1, with every car having an in-car feed, I get extremely jealous...

 

By the 2000s, we also routed the director in one ear and program audio/announcers in the other ear of the camera operator's twin muff headsets.  It enabled us to respond faster to show whatever the announcers were discussing.  As always, the camera operators could inform the truck of things that they had seen and shot, and the camera operators could also help notify the next camera in the sequence of a new development.

[E1pix]

What a tremendous post, Thank You.

Not prying, but reading some of that line-up brings fond memories of Brock Yates and Steve Evans. :-)

[teegeefla]

I worked drag racing with both Brock and Steve and they were brilliant.  Don Garlits and Dave McClelland too.  Brock was the wise guy anarchist with a superb wit; Steve had the rare skill to come across as an "everyman" communicator who you could imagine sitting on a couch with you and drinking a beer and shooting the...breeze.  Sometimes it was hard to shoot in the pits because he was gracious to everyone and we kept stopping for conversations with the fans.  

 

Steve and I worked together for a decade, right up to his passing away (back at the hotel) during a live World of Outlaws sprint car race weekend.  We kept the info from everyone until we were off the air, and it was the hardest show I ever did, but we did a superb broadcast in his honor.  I was honored to be asked to speak at his memorial service at the Pomona Fairgrounds racetrack during the NHRA Finals, and during the ceremony there was the roar of nitro qualifying in the background.  Completely fitting for the man, and there has not been another like him since.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Between 1997 and 2002 I worked freelance for FOM doing replays, pitlane camera and graphics. For the replays back then we recorded all cameras onto hard drives (an early version of EVS), but before that, in the 80's, I know at one point the BBC recorded all cameras on individual VHS machines and replayed from them. It would have been an Assistant Directors job to look out for incidents and decide to air them. At FOM in about 2000 doing replays we could actually talk to our cameramen out on circuit...likewise they could press a button on the camera when they saw an incident and we'd get a red light at our end to go and look at it, that's if we weren't already doing it. Incidentally it was my replay from Schumacher's on board for the incident with Villeneuve at Jerez that finally decided the championship.

Championship was decided regardless of the replay because MSC crashed and Villeneuve continued to collect further 4 pts.

It was second place that was decided because of your replay when MSC was stripped all WDC points and HHF was promoted to 2nd in overall standings.

[Tim Murray]

The race stewards at Jerez considered the incident after the race. Both Schumacher and Villeneuve were summoned before them to give evidence, and no doubt Gary’s video replay would have been viewed.

Schumacher’s story at the time was that the incident was entirely Villeneuve’s fault for carrying out an overly-optimistic passing manoeuvre in the course of which he used the Ferrari as a brake. Had the film clip not been available, the stewards might have accepted this version and penalised Villeneuve in some way, either by disqualification or time penalty. If Villeneuve had been disqualified Schumacher would have been champion.

As we know, the stewards came down in favour of Villeneuve, with Schumacher ordered to appear before the World Motor Sport Council a fortnight later. This hearing determined that although Schumacher was entirely to blame for the incident, his move to block Villeneuve was instinctive, not premeditated or malicious, and thus not deserving of a ban or other severe penalty.

The verdict was that he be removed from the final standings in the 1997 World Championship, and he was also ordered to perform seven days of PR work on behalf of the European Commission’s road safety campaign.

He was not stripped of any points, or wins, or podiums.

[Michael Ferner]

Now I'm confused. I remember the onboard footage to have shown how Schoo steered instinctively away from the accident, and then, a millisecond later, turn in nonetheless. In other words, that the move causing the collision was not instinctive!

[Zmeej]

Tim

Schumacher >was< stripped of the points he earned, but nothing else. Effectively, this punished the team more than it did him, which was kinda stupid.

A contemporary news item, with attendant witticism in the headline:

Formula 1 hands Schumacher a pointless punishment
Derek Allsop
The Independent
12 November 1997

https://www.independ...nt-1293640.html

Agree with what Damon Hill said:

"It doesn't sound as serious punishment as we were led to believe [would be meted out] by Max [Mosely] before the race. This just doesn't match up. As for Michael's explanation that it was instinctive, well it's also an instinctive thing >not< to do things that way."

That incident, his behaviour subsequent (standing trackside, hoping JV's car would succumb), and his repellent statements thereafter crystallized why so many loathed him.

What was stunning was the absolute brazenness and cynicism of Schumacher's move, the similarity of situation to Adelaide '94, the expectation that he would profit from it AGAIN, the mind-blowing assertive mendacity in the face of accusations, and then the nauseating false-flagellation he went through when he received hardly any punishment at all.

Undeniably a massively talented, focussed, driven, and successful competitor.
But a disgusting human being.

Edited by Zmeej, 19 August 2018 - 13:46.

[Tim Murray]

Tim

Schumacher >was< stripped of the points he earned, but nothing else. Effectively, this punished the team more than it did him, which was kinda stupid.

A contemporary news item, with attendant witticism in the headline:

Formula 1 hands Schumacher a pointless punishment
Derek Allsop
The Independent
12 November 1997

https://www.independ...nt-1293640.html

There has been a lot of misunderstanding about Schumacher’s penalty, both at the time and in subsequent years. However, I am convinced that his only penalty was to be removed from second place in the final 1997 championship standings. He kept all of his wins and points. Check any website that covers these things. I’m sure you’ll find that Schumacher’s wins, points etc from 1997 are included.

[Collombin]

His punishment was basically the number 2 next to his name in the 1997 standings was tippexed out. Points etc were unaffected.

[Zmeej]

The sources I've checked are split. Some say he was stripped of his points, some say he kept them.
Contemporaneous news reports are unanimous in stating that he was stripped of them.
"Reference" sites are where confusion seems to set in.

For example, the Wiki entry about the '97 season manages to suggest both - indicating in a table that he lost them via disqualification, and in the text that kept both wins and points.

Anyway, ultimately this has nothing to do with replays, which is the subject of thread. Apologies to all for the hijack.

Edited by Zmeej, 19 August 2018 - 16:45.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

What does FIA official records say? Was he stripped of all points or just removed from standings?

[Zmeej]

Good question...

Unfortunately, the FIA website's archives extend only to 2012.
Maybe I wasn't navigating it correctly, but that's all I could find.
A search of "f1 1997 season" kicked up nothing.

Edited by Zmeej, 19 August 2018 - 23:42.

[E1pix]

I worked drag racing with both Brock and Steve and they were brilliant.  Don Garlits and Dave McClelland too.  Brock was the wise guy anarchist with a superb wit; Steve had the rare skill to come across as an "everyman" communicator who you could imagine sitting on a couch with you and drinking a beer and shooting the...breeze.  Sometimes it was hard to shoot in the pits because he was gracious to everyone and we kept stopping for conversations with the fans.  
 
Steve and I worked together for a decade, right up to his passing away (back at the hotel) during a live World of Outlaws sprint car race weekend.  We kept the info from everyone until we were off the air, and it was the hardest show I ever did, but we did a superb broadcast in his honor.  I was honored to be asked to speak at his memorial service at the Pomona Fairgrounds racetrack during the NHRA Finals, and during the ceremony there was the roar of nitro qualifying in the background.  Completely fitting for the man, and there has not been another like him since.

Thought you'd like hearing, in honor of Steve and Brock and now you, stayed up three hours watching Cavalcade and a "...Walked Away" episode. I hadn't realized since the last millennium how much I missed those guys, even rodeo clips where I half-expected to hear Donnie Gay!

Once Swamp Buggies become interesting, the whole damned staff becomes Royalty. Nobody today is touching the style and authenticity of anything DP did. :-)

Thanks for your part, and for the prompt, and I mean both.

[teegeefla]

E1-

 

here is an excellent article about Steve.

 

https://www.onedirt....ay-steve-evans/

 

my apologies for hijacking the thread.

[sinnae404]

No worries for the hijack but for those interested, by strange coincidence the F1 site has just put up a great video with the commentary from the TV control room from the German GP.  Nice insight into how these things work.