64 replies to this topic

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Since there is no topic dedicated to history of karting I decided to open one.

Im interested at what point in time ex karting drivers started to emerge on Grand Prix, Sportscars and Touring car scene.

Today all of them once were in karts, but not so long ago we even had WDCs that never competed in karting. For example Damon Hill. Im courios to know what other eminent drivers never drove karts

And also im opening this topic for other themes karting related. For example demise of ICA and JICA (100cc karts) etc..

[E1pix]

To feed your username, Buddy Lazier for one -- though as longtime friends with their Dad we used to pit next to Jaques

(meaning Buddy never raced karts)

As far as I know, the first American driver to first use the new ladder system of karts, to Formula Ford, to a winged formula car (Super Vee), to Indy Car, was "Fast Eddie" Miller by 1976. He was also the first driver doing this new route be supported by Carl Haas.

To follow in quick succession from Super Vee was Tom Bagley, Bob Lazier, Bill Alsup, Herm Johnson, Dennis Firestone, and Josele Garza, and from F-Atlantic Bobby Rahal, Howdy Holmes, Price Cobb (to sports cars), Danny Sullivan, Michael Andretti, Kevin Cogan, and many more.

This became the new pathway in the U.S. after decades of midgets and sprint cars being the typical road to Indy.

[Tim Murray]

This earlier thread covers mainly UK karting history:

Gearbox karting

[john winfield]

This earlier thread covers mainly UK karting history:

Gearbox karting

 

What a good thread Tim. Entertaining early post from David Beard!

[DCapps]

To feed your username, Buddy Lazier for one -- though as longtime friends with their Dad we used to pit next to Jaques

(meaning Buddy never raced karts)

As far as I know, the first American driver to first use the new ladder system of karts, to Formula Ford, to a winged formula car (Super Vee), to Indy Car, was "Fast Eddie" Miller by 1976. He was also the first driver doing this new route be supported by Carl Haas.

To follow in quick succession from Super Vee was Tom Bagley, Bob Lazier, Bill Alsup, Herm Johnson, Dennis Firestone, and Josele Garza, and from F-Atlantic Bobby Rahal, Howdy Holmes, Price Cobb (to sports cars), Danny Sullivan, Michael Andretti, Kevin Cogan, and many more.

This became the new pathway in the U.S. after decades of midgets and sprint cars being the typical road to Indy.

 

Include Lake Speed as well.

[Michael Ferner]

Actually, the first US American to make a career out of Karting was Bobby Allen, who ended up becoming one of the greatest Sprint car stars of all time. Ironic, innit?

[E1pix]

Include Lake Speed as well.

I was mostly speaking of the road to Indy and don't think Lake did much open-wheel. I do recall a quote of his after driving a Formula Ford where he called it "A big, slow kart." Then again, he was used to dual-engined karts running alcohol and about 100 horsepower in C-Open! (FF at the time had maybe 110).

Michael, I take it Bobby Allen raced earlier than the guys I recall, interesting I never knew he was a karter at all. Scott Pruett was fabulous in a kart (!), as was Mark Dismore and my (late) friend Scott Overbey and so many more that never had budget to ascend with. One surprise I got at the 1981 IKF Grandnationals in Medford, Oregon was a driver pulling his helmet off at the scales, and immediately realizing it was "Slim" from my favorite Western, "The Cowboys" with John Wayne! Driver's also known as Bobby Carradine.

I was rarely intimidated in a kart, but the one time I was a little was at the Rock Island Grand Prix through downtown streets in that town. Crowned, greasy, dirty, hay bale-lined. Ironically learned a couple years back, so was a certain poster here that'll hopefully weigh in...

[Michael Ferner]

Bobby Allen won two "unofficial" Karting world championships in 1960 and '61, one in Europe and one in America. I think those were the first ones ever recognized as such, although they remain "unofficial" becaue the FIA did not sanction Karting until 1964. It seems "Scruffy" ran karts designed and built by Jim Rathmann and George Salih in those events, so proper Indy credentials are included.

[D-Type]

Ronnie Peterson was one of the first F1 drivers to start in karts if I remember correctly - and maybe the first.

Edited by D-Type, 13 September 2018 - 13:13.

[E1pix]

Ronnie raced against an old buddy named Ove Olsson in Sweden, and ironically Ove was Fast Eddie's chief mechanic in Super Vee.

Bobby Allen won two "unofficial" Karting world championships in 1960 and '61, one in Europe and one in America. I think those were the first ones ever recognized as such, although they remain "unofficial" becaue the FIA did not sanction Karting until 1964. It seems "Scruffy" ran karts designed and built by Jim Rathmann and George Salih in those events, so proper Indy credentials are included.

Wow, I had no idea. Very cool tidbit about one Legendary shoe.

[group7]

Eric (E1pix) sent you a PM, but it tells me you are not taking any new messages, maybe your box is full ?  

 

PM me if you can, hope all is well.

 

Mike, in Canada 

[E1pix]

Full it twas, made room for more petrol so Bombs Away!

Thanks, Michael. :-)

[Blue6ix]

Hopefully in this topic, own respective experiences can be shared.

 

As of speaking myself, I have drove many different Karting vehicles in past. There has been so many of them that I don't even remember of which chassis or Karting vehicle model should I speak of first.

 

Maybe I will come back to this topic at times or when time really is right.

 

Just for some quick memorising, the slowest Karting vehicle which I have driven in past was (Excluding some stuttering slow amusement park go-karts.) a 3-HP model which was really, really slow, I don't even recall it's top speed or estimated top speed, but it were regions of 30 KM/H or so. Could have been even lesser than that and even one of those really slow models had a turbocharger and even with that equiped it was a sitting duck of a go-kart, but it really were fine for enthusiastic little children and for my little nephew for a few years back then when he had that racefly bite. Especially if equiped with a turbocharger.

 

The fastest Karting vehicle which I have driven in past was a fully equiped Superkart class go-kart with a gearbox, wings and with a turbocharger and oh boy, it really was fast!

 

I had quite a few neck bruises with all those G-forces and sometimes I really think that some of those fastest Superkart class go-karts could give almost the same feelings like some really slow, outdated Formula Ford or even a really oldshaped F3-class car, but you don't really need many laps with them, especially if they really are much faster (Usually they are.) then I think my neck pains and bruises could have been much worse than what they were with just a Superkart class go-kart.

 

Karting really is a fine art of motor racing for beginners and why not also for experienced.

 

Sometime it's of course a question of money and spendings, but even with rising cost it is still quite of a much cheaper than many other motorsport class activities.

Edited by Blue6ix, 17 August 2018 - 16:14.

[E1pix]

Welcome, Blue6ix!!!

[Blue6ix]

Thanks!

[oldtransamdriver]

Paul Tracy started racing karts at the Goodwood Kartways in Stouffville Ontario, north of Toronto. At the

age of 16 he became the youngest Canadian Formula Ford champion - also won the last single-seat

Can-Am race at Mosport at 17- then feeder series to Indy Cars.

 

Robert

[E1pix]

Which of course segues my thoughts to Greg Moore. He won the Canadian F2000 title at 17 as a rookie.

Not to fire debate, but I think he had more potential to approach or beat Villeneuve's achievements than did Tracy. Helluva nice kid, too in a full day I spent with only he and his dad Ric and his lifetime wrench Steve Challis. His is a loss I will never get over.

[Calhoun98]

Here is the earliest magazine I have with coverage of Bobby Allen and his "World Championship". The issue is dated May 1961.

 

[Calhoun98]

Patrese was the 1974 World Champ. Cheever, De Angelis, de Cesaris, Senna. and Corrado Fabi are others I know finished in the top ten in World Champ races in the 70s.

[dolomite]

A while ago while looking through old black and white negatives taken by my mother I found in amongst the interminable gliding photos some shots of what is evidently a very early karting event. I believe these date from around 1960 and show embryonic karts being driven on what looks like a rudimentary temporary circuit set up on an airfield of some sort. I wonder if anybody with more knowledge of karting than me can identify where and when these might have been taken?

 

[bigears]

When I saw those photos, I can see a curved roof building and I thought it was the old Chasewater kart circuit (in the West Midlands) but the photos reveal additional buildings making me doubt it is from Chasewater.

 

See the old karting from Chasewater (built over because the M6 Toll Road in 2009) in 1970:

[dolomite]

When I saw those photos, I can see a curved roof building and I thought it was the old Chasewater kart circuit (in the West Midlands) but the photos reveal additional buildings making me doubt it is from Chasewater.

 

Thanks, that does look a bit similar but not convinced it's the same place

[RonPohl]

I Have to wonder if simulators and iracing will, to a certain extent, replace carting as the entry to motor sports.

[GTMRacer]

Here is an earlier thread about the first Karts built in the UK, by my Father and his friends

 

https://forums.autos...t-september-59/

[Derwent Motorsport]

I Have to wonder if simulators and iracing will, to a certain extent, replace carting as the entry to motor sports.

 

It is already happening of course. James Baldwin, the "world's fastest gamer" drivers in BGT for Jenson Button's team and is doing well.    

 

The advantage og simulators and i racing is that anyone can do it, without the huge sums that are being spent by rich daddies to get their kids into F1.  Go to any kart meeting and see the mobile workshops and motor homes and in some cases helicopters (Lance Stroll) and you realise that there is no way a Hamilton or Button would be able to make their mark and move up the ranks now.

 

Of the more recent F1 drivers, Mark Webber was a late starter in karting in his mid teens but everyone else start when they were in nappies!

[dolomite]

Here is an earlier thread about the first Karts built in the UK, by my Father and his friends

 

https://forums.autos...t-september-59/

Thanks for that link. My mum lived in Bristol. I’m wondering now if her photos could be the event at Whitchurch Airfield that is mentioned?

[GTMRacer]

Thanks for that link. My mum lived in Bristol. I’m wondering now if her photos could be the event at Whitchurch Airfield that is mentioned?

 

Looking at that last photo, It really does look like my Father at the wheel... Surely the same kart?

So yes that's probably Whitchurch

 

Edited by GTMRacer, 01 February 2021 - 14:55.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Looking at that last photo, It really does look like my Father at the wheel... Surely the same kart?
So yes that's probably Whitchurch

That might be a Trokart. I think they cost £25 new while a more competitive kart cost £50, which was a lot of money then.

[GTMRacer]

That might be a Trokart. I think they cost £25 new while a more competitive kart cost £50, which was a lot of money then.

 

The kart in the picture was one build by my Father, John Grist and his friends from the BM&LCC in 59, they called themselves "Ecurie Minima"

[dolomite]

 

Looking at that last photo, It really does look like my Father at the wheel... Surely the same kart?

So yes that's probably Whitchurch

 

 

Yes that does look like the same one!

[dolomite]

I’m not sure now if it’s Whitchurch. I can’t find any other pictures of Whitchurch that seem to match those buildings.

[E1pix]

Cool conversation, Guys. Makes me miss it.

I still have an original ‘83 Emmick-Yamaha in storage. Dead slow compared to my last kart (with a Biland SA250), but still sounds nice at 12,8.

[GTMRacer]

I’m not sure now if it’s Whitchurch. I can’t find any other pictures of Whitchurch that seem to match those buildings.

 

I know that they organised events on the disused airfields around the BAC factories in Filton for testing, 

Maybe it was there?

[dolomite]

I know that they organised events on the disused airfields around the BAC factories in Filton for testing, 

Maybe it was there?

No, I am very familiar with Filton and it's definitely not there.

I don't suppose you have any sort of list of events that your father competed in?

[GTMRacer]

In this Bristiol MC&LCC Newsletter they mention Goram Fair sprint, but your images look more like a temporary track laid out on a

disused airfield, there were a lot of those about in the area at the time

 

Edited by GTMRacer, 04 February 2021 - 12:30.

[dolomite]

In this Bristiol MC&LCC Newsletter they mention Goram Fair sprint, but your images look more like a temporary track laid out on a

disused airfield, there were a lot of those about in the area at the time

 

Thanks for that. I have looked at available pictures of other airfields around the area such as Kemble and Colerne but nothing seems to match. I'd already found some stuff about Goram Fair, which seems to have been a fairly major event at Whitchurch in August 1959 featuring car and motorcycle racing, I don't think the pictures correspond to that, for one reason because they include an 'Azum-Kart' which apparently did not appear until towards the end of 1959. Lulsgate could be a possibility though - it seems to be quite hard to find any period pictures that show how it would have appeared back then.

[Tim Murray]

The Bristol MC&LCC article mentions ‘Charmey’. This was presumably the disused RAF airfield at Charmy Down, just off the A46 a few miles north of Bath. This has been used for mainly autotest-type events by various motor clubs over the years, up until the present day, and might possibly be where the kart photos were taken.

https://en.m.wikiped...RAF_Charmy_Down

[E1pix]

I know nothing about British karting circuits, so am curious about the historic prevalence of dirt road courses — such as in the photos.

[Derwent Motorsport]

I think the course are on old tarmac or concrete at old airfields.  That's where most of the early tracks were. 

[E1pix]

Examine the third photo on post 20, after enlarging it... this track is dirt, without question.

Stones everywhere, dirt mounds, dirt flying off tires, the lot.

I raised it as nobody else had.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Examine the third photo on post 20, after enlarging it... this track is dirt, without question.

Stones everywhere, dirt mounds, dirt flying off tires, the lot.

I raised it as nobody else had.

I think you will find that is just dirt on the old runway.  I've run lots of events on former airfields and the tar and concrete gets covered with dirt and soil.  In those days they didn't bother to clear it off!

[GTMRacer]

The Bristol MC&LCC article mentions ‘Charmey’. This was presumably the disused RAF airfield at Charmy Down, just off the A46 a few miles north of Bath. This has been used for mainly autotest-type events by various motor clubs over the years, up until the present day, and might possibly be where the kart photos were taken.

https://en.m.wikiped...RAF_Charmy_Down

 

I know that Father and his friends went to a "disused airfield" a lot to test the karts, this could well be it, I was  told as a child about my Grandfather turning up and having a go, always a somewhat nervous driver (he detested motorways...) he shot off at great speed and slightly panicked, he went out the wrong gate and narrowly missed a bus full of somewhat startled people, shooting off down the road and quickly back into the airfield. They quickly packed up and scarpered, just as they were leaving the local Plod turned up to investigate, a ticking off ensued...

Needless to say, My Grandfather never lived it down!

[pete53]

My only experience of watching karting live came in 1986. I was working in Hong Kong for a couple of months and my arrival coincided with the Hong Kong Kart GP in Victoria Park that November- a stones throw from my hotel. That kept me occupied for my first weekend there!

 

Stefano Modena was competing, who of course went on to race in Formula 1.

 

I have just found some footage on Youtube  ....

 

 

I do recall NickBritain having a weekly Karting column in Autosport in the mid 60s. It wasn't universally approved of by readers with a fair number thinking it should have no place in the magazine.

[bradbury west]

Quite by chance I saw a pair of programmes for the Goram Fair events in 59 and 60 on e bay back in January. The vendor generously posted a couple of pages, entries etc for the September 1959 event, which also had a page and a bit about Karts. I have found it again, now sold, but the pages are offset a bit, so not full pages. PM me with e mail address and I will ping  them over to you if you fancy them

Roger Lund

[dolomite]

Quite by chance I saw a pair of programmes for the Goram Fair events in 59 and 60 on e bay back in January. The vendor generously posted a couple of pages, entries etc for the September 1959 event, which also had a page and a bit about Karts. I have found it again, now sold, but the pages are offset a bit, so not full pages. PM me with e mail address and I will ping  them over to you if you fancy them

Roger Lund

Thanks Roger, I’ve already found a copy of the whole programme online at the link below. No mention of karting in it though. 

https://daveriley.we...whitchurch.html

 

Edit: is this the one you’re referring to? https://www.ebay.co....4.m46890.l49292

Edited by dolomite, 05 February 2021 - 13:09.

[dolomite]

I know that Father and his friends went to a "disused airfield" a lot to test the karts, this could well be it, I was  told as a child about my Grandfather turning up and having a go, always a somewhat nervous driver (he detested motorways...) he shot off at great speed and slightly panicked, he went out the wrong gate and narrowly missed a bus full of somewhat startled people, shooting off down the road and quickly back into the airfield. They quickly packed up and scarpered, just as they were leaving the local Plod turned up to investigate, a ticking off ensued...

Needless to say, My Grandfather never lived it down!

 

The Bristol MC&LCC article mentions ‘Charmey’. This was presumably the disused RAF airfield at Charmy Down, just off the A46 a few miles north of Bath. This has been used for mainly autotest-type events by various motor clubs over the years, up until the present day, and might possibly be where the kart photos were taken.

https://en.m.wikiped...RAF_Charmy_Down

That could well be a candidate. Certainly it would be fairly easily accessible by road from Bristol for testing purposes. The photos seem to show a fairly organised circuit race though, as opposed to clandestine unofficial testing, and I haven’t yet found any mention of such an event at Charmy Down. 

[68targa]

Not sure if this is of any interest for early karting fans.

I found the only photo I have ever taken of a kart.  This was at Buxton around 1960 -1962ish when they had some races around the Pavillion gardens. The frame is rudimentary box section and also the steering wheel has been cut down from the over large examples of early karts.  

 

Nice transporter behind though !

 

[GTMRacer]

That could well be a candidate. Certainly it would be fairly easily accessible by road from Bristol for testing purposes. The photos seem to show a fairly organised circuit race though, as opposed to clandestine unofficial testing, and I haven’t yet found any mention of such an event at Charmy Down. 

 

My sister is in contact with one of the original builders, Arnold Denman, she has sent him the links so we may get a definite answer as to its location

 

Simon Grist

[john winfield]

Not sure if this is of any interest for early karting fans.

I found the only photo I have ever taken of a kart.  This was at Buxton around 1960 -1962ish when they had some races around the Pavillion gardens. The frame is rudimentary box section and also the steering wheel has been cut down from the over large examples of early karts.  

 

Nice transporter behind though !

 

 

Karts racing around the Pavilion Gardens! I wish I'd seen that. Did they stay on the gardens side of the river, or blast along in front of the Pavilion and Conservatory? I can imagine them rounding the top lake then tearing through the little underpass. Sounds great fun, if a little worrying for the ducks.

Edited by john winfield, 05 February 2021 - 14:46.

[68targa]

They raced in front of the glass Conservatory and Pavillion part, don't think they strayed into the gardens themselves which would, as you say, have been great fun.  I would have been about 12 at the time and thought this tremendous that here was some racing on my doorstep.