27 replies to this topic

[Jon Saltinstall]

Now here's a strange one....

 

The image below appeared in "Powerslide" Magazine in January 1973 in a spoof article concerning the fictitious "Gran Premio del Sorpresas" in Argentina. Ostensibly run in 1972, this made-up Formula Libre event was said to have been won by Lauda in a BRM P180. Now the image appears to be just that - Lauda in a P180 - but can anyone cast any light on where and when the picture was taken?

 

[Michael Ferner]

Looks very much like Le Castellet...

[group7]

Where there not only two 180s constructed ?  Not a successful venture ! was not Lauda in a March 721 for most of the season ? I'm sure that if he tested a P180 Jenks would have picked up on that .

 

Did Powerslide exist then ? 

 

I am no expert on these matters, just my two cents.

Edited by group7, 18 August 2018 - 01:08.

[group7]

In my copy of "To Hell And Back" (1986)  by Lauda, (I'm quoting roughly) he writes "that March said they would only have me in F2, this was late October '72. He then writes about being invited to a test with BRM at Paul Ricard. Regazzoni and Schuppan tested the first two days,, Lauda got twenty laps on the third but was faster than Schuppan"

 

perhaps that is the event and location of the photo posted by Jon ?

 

Michael

 

More: From the Motor Sport Data Base on Lauda "Without a drive for the 1973 F1 season, Lauda arrived uninvited at a Marlboro BRM test at Paul Ricard and persuaded the team to allow him to show what he could do. Quick that day, he drove a BRM P160 in the '73 season"

 

Was he "invited" his words, or uninvited, quoting Motor Sport ?  

Edited by group7, 18 August 2018 - 03:54.

[StanBarrett2]

 

Did Powerslide exist then ? 

 

 

and my notes from another source

 

Powerslide gave the best coverage of Swiss national racing during the late 1960s and through the 1970s. It started at the beginning of 1963 and ran through to June 1975 when it changed its name to Motorsport Aktuell. Its editor for much of this period was Dieter Stappert, who moved to BMW in 1977, becoming Competitions Director and leading the F1 program that culminated in Nelson Piquet's world championship in a Brabham-BMW in 1983. One of the magazine's writers was Rico Steinemann who finished second at Le Mans in 1968.................................to become MotorSport Aktuell

 

What I refer to as Powerslide II  started somewhere in late 2009 and it ran of and on until issue #28 in March 2014....when it became CURBS magazine

 

macoran

[Jon Saltinstall]

All contemporary sources say that March wanted Lauda to remain with them as a paid driver, but when STP reduced its funding this was unaffordable; they could only offer him a testing role. Without an F1 drive for 1973, he persuaded BRM to let him join their test at Paul Ricard on 4/12/1972 (the team having decamped there from Silverstone) and apparently impressed Tim Parnell with his commitment and determination. After evaluating several drivers, BRM's first choice for 1973 was Roger Williamson, but Tom Wheatcroft vetoed the proposal (he wanted Williamson in a DFV-engined car), so Marlboro’s Patrick Duffeler engineered a deal for Lauda to join the team on merit, but with no retainer.

 

As Group 7 says, there were only two P180s built (one sat in the Donington Collection for many years) but they were certainly run in the 1972 season, so would have been available for the December test at Le Castellet. I was guessing that might be the answer, but didn't want to "lead the witness" in the first instance!   

[Jon Saltinstall]

Have found a contemporary article by Dieter Stappert, who had hitched a ride to the test with Lauda in his hire car.

 

Stappert reports that Lauda had never been to Le Castellet before, so after a few laps in the Simca hire car, Regazzoni took him round in his Ferrari to show him the right lines – though the Swiss complained there was a lot of sand on the track, making things tricky.

 

The team had brought along three cars: a P160, as he had been seen in the last Grand Prix; a normal P180, and another P160 which had some invisible modifications and a new nose fairing. Regazzoni drove the normal 160, Schuppan the modified P160 and Lauda was allowed in the P180 to get used to the BRM “driving experience”. The short le Castellet circuit was used as comparison times ​​were available from the Goodyear tyre tests a week earlier (Hulme’s best then, in better conditions, being 1’12”4.

 

It was soon clear that the times set by Regazzoni at Silverstone were not a flash in the pan. After a few short sessions, the Ticinese worked down to 1'13 "8, 1'13" 2, 1'12 "9 and 1'12" 6, although the car was set up for the long circuit. Schuppan could not do better than 1'17 "4 with the modified P160, although the new front fairing made the handling rather unpleasant. Finally, Lauda was given three short sessions with the P180, clocking a 1'15 "8 which impressed Parnell, who commented that "the P180 is definitely two and a half seconds slower than the P160”. 

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 18 August 2018 - 11:25.

[group7]

We have our answer to the photo ! as usual an in depth and detailed account  

 

Regazzoni complained of the track being sandy when he took  Lauda  out , quoting again from Lauda's book,  "I asked Regazzoni  to show me the circuit, in his Ferrari Daytona,  on the second lap we went into a spin at 125 mph ! I was at an age when that sort of thing appeals"  

 

macoran, thanks for the information on the earlier Powerslide, I was only aware of the more current one.

Edited by group7, 18 August 2018 - 14:45.

[terrance trump]

If my memory serves me well. My local garage, which sold National petroleum, had a full size BRM P180 in their showroom. It turned out that it was a replica made entirely of fibreglass except maybe the tyres. Weren't there about ten of these made? I think they were made to advertise Marlboro.

Edited by terrance trump, 18 August 2018 - 19:32.

[opplock]

Marlboro’s Patrick Duffeler engineered a deal for Lauda to join the team on merit, but with no retainer.

 

 

I've never heard that story before.

 

Lauda's version from To Hell and Back. 

 

"No illusions. Stanley would only take me on if I paid my way; he was already paying two drivers (Regazzoni and Beltoise)". 

"My tactic would be to schedule my (as yet non-existent) 'sponsorship' payments in such a way that the first instalment would bridge the debt repayment gap. By the time the next instalment was due, I would already be established as a star". 

 

The BRM contract was finalised in Vienna shortly before Christmas 1972 in a meeting with Louis Stanley also attended by an Austrian banker (unknowingly representing the "sponsor" "paying" for Lauda's drive). Due to the banker's limited English Lauda kindly acted as interpreter!   

[RA Historian]

You have to admire Niki's maneuvering and guile!

[Rob Ryder]

You have to admire Niki's maneuvering and guile!

 

There is a LOT to admire about the man

[arttidesco]

If my memory serves me well. My local garage, which sold National petroleum, had a full size BRM P180 in their showroom. It turned out that it was a replica made entirely of fibreglass except maybe the tyres. Weren't there about ten of these made? I think they were made to advertise Marlboro.

 

 

I believe one of the replica P180's sits in the Technick Museum in Sinsheim.... 

 

 

 .... where the blurb describes the car as a P160E !

 

 

This belief is based soley on the fact that of the three P180's I have seen the one at Sinsheim is the only one with the engine completely clad in fibre glass.

 

 

Can any one else confirm this alleged P160E in Sinsheim to be one of the ten replica P180 cars ?

 

 

TIA 

Edited by arttidesco, 14 October 2022 - 04:47.

[dolomite]

I don’t believe Lauda ever drove a P180, BRM had given up on it by the time he joined. Has that one actually got an engine?

[MCS]

TEN replica P180s ?!

 

Really?

[Bloggsworth]

I once did some POS design work for Ferrari, through a company near Heathrow, who had several replica F1 cars in their premises, mostly Ferraris used for display purposes, They could well have made replica BRMs.

[dolomite]

I don’t believe Lauda ever drove a P180, BRM had given up on it by the time he joined. Has that one actually got an engine?

Ok, I’ve just read the posts at the beginning of this thread. I stand corrected!

[GreenMachine]

I once did some POS design work for Ferrari....

 

The problem with acronyms .... I know what you mean, but how many people read this and giggled?  Or perhaps both meanings are correct?! 

[Ray Bell]

Ah... we can all make mistakes...

 

Look at Post No. 13.

[arttidesco]

 Has that one actually got an engine?

 

I have my doubts....

 

 

these are the other two P180's I have seen...

 

 

both at the fabuous BRM Day now a decade ago, only saw the bottom one, driven by Howden Ganley, move under it's own steam though ! 

 

TEN replica P180s ?!

 

Really?

 

Not the first time I have heard this story, IIRC I recall it from my school days in the 70's.

[Stephen W]

TEN replica P180s ?!

 

Really?

 

I was under the impression that Marlboro had the fibre-glass replicas made for publicity events so that real cars didn't have to be used. I would have thought ten might be a suitable number for distribution world-wide although it does sound a lot.

[Charlieman]

I was under the impression that Marlboro had the fibre-glass replicas made for publicity events so that real cars didn't have to be used. I would have thought ten might be a suitable number for distribution world-wide although it does sound a lot.

Lotus built a functional model 49 which only served as a promotions exhibit for Players and Ford. Ten GRP models would have cost the same or less than a real car. The BRM sponsorship was Marlboro's first venture in F1, and ambitions were very high. Were there any plastic McLaren M23s?

[Bloggsworth]

The problem with acronyms .... I know what you mean, but how many people read this and giggled?  Or perhaps both meanings are correct?! 

Point Of Sale...

[john aston]

I was under the impression that Marlboro had the fibre-glass replicas made for publicity events so that real cars didn't have to be used. I would have thought ten might be a suitable number for distribution world-wide although it does sound a lot.

It wouldn't surprise me at all. From the reserved , very Engllsh team which BRM had been in its glory years , it became intoxicated  with publicity with the advent of Marlboro sponsorship . More entries  than you could shake a stick at and before (or was it after ?) every GP I'd get a Marlboro newspaper sent to me in the post   -I  never asked for one , but (pre data protection laws) I assumed BARC or BMRMC had provided my details. It worked - Marlboro was my gasper of choice for years. Cough.   

[funformula]

TEN replica P180s ?!

 

Really?

 

One found it´s way to a car dealer near Geneva in Switzerland in the mid 90s.

It was on display outside and to be honest I felt a bit sorry for it. Assuming it was a real race car I asked myself if the owner is aware of it´s potential value. It turned out it was a show car.

Edited by funformula, 15 October 2022 - 21:01.

[amerikalei]

This once again makes me long for the eventual release of BRM V4...

[arttidesco]

It wouldn't surprise me at all. From the reserved , very Engllsh team which BRM had been in its glory years , it became intoxicated  with publicity with the advent of Marlboro sponsorship . More entries  than you could shake a stick at and before (or was it after ?) every GP I'd get a Marlboro newspaper sent to me in the post   -I  never asked for one , but (pre data protection laws) I assumed BARC or BMRMC had provided my details. It worked - Marlboro was my gasper of choice for years. Cough.   

 

I suspect it was Marlboro who was intoxicated with the idea of stealing the thunder Nottinghams Players marketing department had created with the F1 platform for it's Gold Leaf and John Player Special brands. I wonder if Big Lou really thought it would be a great idea to provide 5 cars on the grid instead of focusing on a more managable number and throwing some of the budget at engine development or if that was Marlboro's idea ?

Edited by arttidesco, 16 October 2022 - 16:59.

[opplock]

I wonder if Big Lou really thought it would be a great idea to provide 5 cars on the grid instead of focusing on a more managable number and throwing some of the budget at engine development or if that was Marlboro's idea ?

 

"I've just been on the telephone to the test bench. We've found another twenty horsepower in the exhaust system" 

 

"It was pointless trying to motivate Louis Stanley. He had no interest in technical matters at all." 

 

The first quote is Niki Lauda's recollection of what Stanley told him after a visit to the gents during an audience at the Dorchester. The second is an extract from Niki's uncomplimentary analysis of Stanley. Both from To Hell and Back.