72 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

Thanks, Stephen...

I wasn't at all sure of what year I went there, but that must have been the one.

Seeing the car alone on the track made me recognise just how small it was.

[blueprint2002]

In this earlier thread discussing the correct colour of the Indianapolis Cooper T54, Philippe de l’Espinay (who found and restored the car) posted the following:

(my highlighting)

Thank you Tim. Was hoping for some more contributions, but failing that I have meanwhile put together whatever info I could find that might be relevant, and also made a few guesses:

 

At the time, the production Aston Martins used the 3670cc six, variants of which ranged from 282 to 304bhp, as claimed by the makers. The 3995cc version, as developed for the Project 212/214/215 GT racers, may have produced up to 350bhp (claimed), going by a press report of a few years later. If so, it was the equal of the Ford pushrod Indy V8, not totally improbable with the DOHC, combustion chamber and free-flow porting, derived from the considerable racing heritage of the earlier 2580/2922cc versions of the engine.

But the inability to reach qualifying speed could indicate a lower performance of the engine actually installed in the car. The level of AM commitment would be decisive, as the racing engines were not commercially available. On the other hand, Kjell Qvale’s requirements must have carried substantial weight with them. However it seems unlikely that a larger-capacity version, to match the Indy displacement limit of 4200cc, was developed.

The weight of the complete engine was somewhat in excess of 500lbs, also going by later press reports, in spite of the all-aluminium construction. If so, this was nearly 50% higher than the Indy Ford V8. And perhaps 10% more than the current Offy engine.

Existing gearboxes and “quick-change” final-drives developed for the roadsters should have been readily adaptable to the car, even if not quite ideal.

The chassis modifications, including lengthening to suit the engine, and suspension modifications to suit the increased weight, were well within the capabilities of the experienced Huffaker builders, though this may have been their first mid-engine car.

Comments, anyone?

[cooper997]

There will be many far better versed on Kjell Qvale than me, but from what I'm aware he liked to link his commercial interests with racing. I believe that in this era one of the marques he sold was Aston Martin through his San Francisco operation. So that gives both contacts and reason for going with the Aston engine, rather than Offy. Those commercial interests pop up again for the 1964 Qvale/Huffaker Indy venture, the 'MG Liquid Suspension Special' boldly featured on the cover of MG's May 1964 Safety Fast mag. 

 

The following appears within the June 1963 Car & Driver Indy 500 preview...

“The former Jack Brabham Cooper of 1961 will be back, this time with an Aston Martin engine. Pedro Rodriguez is scheduled to drive for Kjell Qvale of San Francisco. The Speedway rule that permits an all-foreign entry to run once with a wheelbase of less than the standard 96 inches doesn’t apply here. It will have to be stretched to 96 for this year”

 

There's a little bit about this 1963 Indy Cooper-Aston in the massive 'The Brothers Rodriguez' book - although it refers to the Aston engine as a V6.

 

Stephen

[Henri Greuter]

Thank you Tim. Was hoping for some more contributions, but failing that I have meanwhile put together whatever info I could find that might be relevant, and also made a few guesses:

 

At the time, the production Aston Martins used the 3670cc six, variants of which ranged from 282 to 304bhp, as claimed by the makers. The 3995cc version, as developed for the Project 212/214/215 GT racers, may have produced up to 350bhp (claimed), going by a press report of a few years later. If so, it was the equal of the Ford pushrod Indy V8, not totally improbable with the DOHC, combustion chamber and free-flow porting, derived from the considerable racing heritage of the earlier 2580/2922cc versions of the engine.

But the inability to reach qualifying speed could indicate a lower performance of the engine actually installed in the car. The level of AM commitment would be decisive, as the racing engines were not commercially available. On the other hand, Kjell Qvale’s requirements must have carried substantial weight with them. However it seems unlikely that a larger-capacity version, to match the Indy displacement limit of 4200cc, was developed.

The weight of the complete engine was somewhat in excess of 500lbs, also going by later press reports, in spite of the all-aluminium construction. If so, this was nearly 50% higher than the Indy Ford V8. And perhaps 10% more than the current Offy engine.

Existing gearboxes and “quick-change” final-drives developed for the roadsters should have been readily adaptable to the car, even if not quite ideal.

The chassis modifications, including lengthening to suit the engine, and suspension modifications to suit the increased weight, were well within the capabilities of the experienced Huffaker builders, though this may have been their first mid-engine car.

Comments, anyone?

 

 

And then to imagine that Andy Granatelli suggested to John Cooper to built a car for him and his Novi V8 engine that weighted in at some 260 kgs....

Biggest problem that eventually killed that plan was that, apart from the weight, there was no suitable gearbox available....

[MarkBisset]

 

Have arrived very late to this party, Stephen Dalton is to blame, I wasn’t aware of the Cooper T54 Aston Martin stage, he pointed this out when we were swapping notes about Cooper/Brabham/Kimberley’s May 30 1961 trailblazing - Yep 60 years nearly

 

It seems Pedro Rodriguez penchant for the Deer-Stalker goes quite a way back. Here during qualifying, they didn’t make the cut of course

 

 

Images from David Friedman Archive

 

 

Front of T54 with Aston Martin six, seems as was in 1961 with an additional element to the radiator 

Edited by MarkBisset, 16 May 2021 - 12:11.

[MarkBisset]

 

It appears the specification of the Aston Martin engine used is still unclear. 
 

Anthony Pritchard writes that DP215, after its 1966 M1 crash, “was fitted with the 4.2-litre engine installed in the Cooper...Pedro Rodriguez...Indianapolis...1963”

 

The 3,996cc variant of the P186 engine, on a compression ratio of 9.5:1, using three Weber 50DCO Webers, twin-plug ignition, and dry-sumped gave 323bhp @6000rpm when fitted into DP215 in 1963.

 

Perhaps they used methanol in the US- perhaps the engine was 4-litres, perhaps 4.2-litres

 

What make is the transaxle folks? Hopefully these David Friedman shots allow some further discussion about the engine/drivetrain

 

Edited by MarkBisset, 16 May 2021 - 12:31.

[Doug Nye]

With its ribbed casing that looks at first glance (just this moment) like a Huffaker transaxle.

 

DCN

[RA Historian]

With its ribbed casing that looks at first glance (just this moment) like a Huffaker transaxle.

 

DCN

I would think that is right. Huffaker worked for Kjell Qvale, the entrant of the car.

[Catalina Park]

I understand that Huffaker did the conversion work on the car.

[RA Historian]

I understand that Huffaker did the conversion work on the car.

Again, at that time Huffaker was an employee of British Motor Car Distributors, Kjell Qvale's big imported car business, based  in San Francisco. Hence, he worked on all Qvale's race cars.

[10kDA]

Great pics, Mark.

[cooper997]

Today, Sixty years on from Tuesday, 30 May 1961.

 

cooper997 collection

 

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

Does anyone have on file the years Jim Kimberly was president of the Sports Car Club of America please? 

 

 

Stephen

[DCapps]

Does anyone have on file the years Jim Kimberly was president of the Sports Car Club of America please? 

 

 

Stephen

1956/58.

[Charlieman]

 

 

 

That tiny gearbox makes me think. I see now why Mauro Forghieri and his team perceived how a transverse gearbox might work in F1.

[cooper997]

1956/58.

Don, much appreciated.

 

 

Stephen

[10kDA]

 

It appears the specification of the Aston Martin engine used is still unclear. 
 

 

What make is the transaxle folks? Hopefully these David Friedman shots allow some further discussion about the engine/drivetrain

 

 

 

With its ribbed casing that looks at first glance (just this moment) like a Huffaker transaxle.

 

DCN

 

 I don't know, the few Huffaker transaxles I've seen were much bigger and bulkier. This looks like some iteration of a Halibrand quick-change rear end.

[Bob Riebe]

 

Have arrived very late to this party, Stephen Dalton is to blame, I wasn’t aware of the Cooper T54 Aston Martin stage, he pointed this out when we were swapping notes about Cooper/Brabham/Kimberley’s May 30 1961 trailblazing - Yep 60 years nearly

 

It seems Pedro Rodriguez penchant for the Deer-Stalker goes quite a way back. Here during qualifying, they didn’t make the cut of course

 

Thanks for this thread.

In the decades I have been following the Indianapolis 500, a picture of this car was seldom seen and usually as part of -- uncommon cars at Indy -- type of article; I much appreciate a nitty-gritty thread on this car.

Thank you.    

[cooper997]

If known, could someone please enlighten me the christian names for Indy Technical folk, C W Sharot, M A White & R A Rotz'?

 

 

Stephen

[Rupertlt1]

All I can find:

 

Rhiman A. Rotz, Chairman of the 1962 USAC Certification Committee.

 

C. W. Sharot possibly known as Bill.

 

M. A. White of Greenfield, Indiana. 

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 27 June 2021 - 06:11.

[cooper997]

Thanks Rupert. Much appreciated, you've done better than me finding the correct google rabbit hole to look.

 

With a little luck another TNFer will fill in the blanks.

 

 

Stephen

[Rupertlt1]

Rhiman A. Rotz died in a plane crash near Crawfordsville, Indiana, Wednesday 6 September 1967. The twin-engine Commanche plane crashed on the Worley W. Myers farm about four miles to the north. 

"Rotz, 51, was chairman of the USAC's Rules Committee and headed Rotz Engineering at Indianapolis."

Johnny Pouelsen, chief mechanic on Parnelli Jones' winning run at Indianapolis in 1963, also perished in the accident.

Cumberland News (Cumberland, Maryland), Thursday 7 September 1967, Page 25

 

Rotz described as an architect.

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 27 June 2021 - 07:38.

[cooper997]

Do any members have access to a reasonable resolution Jim Kimberly photo please (up towards 850kb-1mb at least)? Either at 1961 Indy or elsewhere would be fine. It's for a car club Indy feature, so the pay rate would be the same as mine - zilch. 

 

 

Stephen