30 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

So it seems every team has a line up of ‘young’ or ‘reserve’ drivers these days. Buying them up by dangling being associated with an f1 team in front of them, and tying them to the team for many many years ‘just in case’

It looks like Daniel Ricciardo signed a 10yr deal to be part of the Redbull programme, that’s an awfully long time. Ok it worked out well for you, but if you trip along the way then you’ve no way of rescuing your career.

Some of the younger hotshots would in years gone by probably already have been on the grid, but nowadays there usually isn’t space as the teams have bought up so many contracts that they have to juggle the drivers and/or loan them out or resort to using them as pawns in other paddock deals.

Should there be a limit on contract lengths? It’s probably just the way of the world, but it seems to be a cheap way for a team to fill their boots with impressionable young drivers just in case they turn out to be the next big thing. Redbull have made several drivers into superstars, but also destroyed the careers of many guys too, and some of them were pretty decent!

[PlatenGlass]

The driver market in F1 seems to be far less fluid than it used to be. It used to be that the drivers in lower formulas would hope to get a drive in F1 by impressing in the lower formulas - F3000 or whatever. But now it seems that they already have to be tied to an F1 team in some way long before they would actually make it to F1. So good drivers that don't have that association are going to struggle to get a seat when there is an established queue for each one. It also makes it less interesting and more predictable.

[BRG]

Nobody is forced to sign up to a deal.  They could try to go it alone, which is fine if you have a rich and/or influential daddy, like Piquet Jr or Stroll.  But hardly anybody else does, and unless they can find a substantial sponsor like Erricsson did, they won't get out of Formula 4. 

 

Aas for Red Bull destroying careers, that is rubbish.  There was no guarantee of success and if the driver isn't good enough, that is their lookout.  They were lucky to get support at all.

[goldenboy]

I'm not sure about a 10 year deal with RIC not sure I've heard that before.

But it's interesting to think about the affect the programs have on stifling the market. I tend to agree. Maybe a case of sunk cost fallacy.

[pdac]

Maybe F1 should have a rule that no driver can drive for the same team for two seasons in a row.

 

And no more than two drives for the same team in a five-year period.

Edited by pdac, 24 August 2018 - 20:42.

[Fatgadget]

Evolution  with the times baby. The bottom line though is you need serious wedge behind you to even have a sniff attaining the lofty heights of  F1...Hasn't that always been the case?

[P123]

Different times. It used to be the likes of Elf and Marlboro who supported drivers through the junior series. I don't think they stifle the driver market either. You could argue it stifles the drivers options, but then signing up to Red Bull, Merc, McLaren, Ferrari or Renault ensures they don't have to drop out through lack of funds.

Max wasn't part of the RB junior lineup pre-F1. Vettel was a RB junior since 12 or something like that, and now drivers for Ferrari. Same for Hamilton with McLaren and Merc.

[f1paul]

To the OP. 

It's much better the way it is now rather than having lots of pay drivers,

 

I'd rather see it the way it is now with lots of young prospects who now don't necessarily need Sergey Sirotkin-esque amounts of money to get into F1.

[Sterzo]

I don't understand what's meant by the vague term "stifling the market."  Young drivers are making it into F1, funded by various sources. The number of drivers entering is smaller than it used to be, for the obvious reason there are now 20 seats instead of 26 as there used to be (more, if you include those who attempted but failed to prequalify).

 

What's going wrong that I haven't spotted, as a result of these young driver programmes?

 

As for this statement:

 

It looks like Daniel Ricciardo signed a 10yr deal to be part of the Redbull programme, that’s an awfully long time. Ok it worked out well for you, but if you trip along the way then you’ve no way of rescuing your career.

 

Never heard of Brendon Hartley or Carlos Sainz?

[moreland]

It is good that drivers are being promoted on talent but it still feels like an inefficient system. There have been occasions e.g. Vandoorne in 2016, Gasly in 2017, where a junior driver is ready to be promoted but their team doesn't have a slot for them, while at other times there are teams with places available but no drivers ready to fill them, e.g Williams when Bottas left, Toro Rosso next year probably. It would make more sense to me if the money that teams currently pay to support their junior drivers were instead used to subsidise the junior formulae in general, then teams could hire whichever drivers looked most promising whenever they had a space for them.

[Spillage]

Well... yes and no. On the one hand these programmes have brought a lot of very talented guys to the grid, including two four-time world champions. On the other hand a driver is occasonally over-promoted at the expense of better talent,as Kvyat was and Gasly may well be. But on the whole I think their impact has been positive and often prevents paydrivers landing in decent cars.

[Atreiu]

I think the problem is at the top end not bottom.

 

200 GP starts is hardly unusual and impressive anymore.

[R Soul]

There have been occasions e.g. Vandoorne in 2016, Gasly in 2017, where a junior driver is ready to be promoted but their team doesn't have a slot for them, while at other times there are teams with places available but no drivers ready to fill them

 

I think a solution to that problem would be for the FIA to not permit contracts that prevent a non-race driver finding a seat in another team.

[Garndell]

Maybe there needs to be time limited contracts only for any driver under say 24/25.  No more than 3 years should suffice, that way teams can't lock in a young driver just to keep him away from another team that can actually put him in a car.

 

F1 could really use more cars or a Quali race to fill 2/4 "Sponsor Cars" to go onto the grid.  F2 should also be bigger so more drivers can be in that shop window too, plus a veterans series so those "old" drivers can do their stuff and not create a blockage by overstaying their time in F1.

 

Sheesh.. what started as a coherent answer went a bit astray.. oh well.

[RacingGreen]

Evolution  with the times baby. The bottom line though is you need serious wedge behind you to even have a sniff attaining the lofty heights of  F1...Hasn't that always been the case?

 

Not really history is full of stories of drivers who mortgaged their house etc. for a drive. That's a big difference to the $20M - $30M - $50M we are hearing about for these guys to find. The money at all levels of motorsport has become utterly ridiculous people are spending a million euro's on karting careers before even sitting in a F4 or F3 car.

 

Also when there were 26 cars on the grid, (plus extra teams trying to qualify) drivers retiring after 100 or 150 or so races and two drivers being killed a year there were more opportunities for up and coming drivers of a variety of talent levels. 

 

edit - don't get me wrong motorsport has never been accessible to people from all walks of life as a means of getting out of the ghetto, and I'm not in favour of an increased mortality rate.

Edited by RacingGreen, 25 August 2018 - 05:26.

[pitlanepalpatine]

Different times. It used to be the likes of Elf and Marlboro who supported drivers through the junior series. I don't think they stifle the driver market either. You could argue it stifles the drivers options, but then signing up to Red Bull, Merc, McLaren, Ferrari or Renault ensures they don't have to drop out through lack of funds.

Max wasn't part of the RB junior lineup pre-F1. Vettel was a RB junior since 12 or something like that, and now drivers for Ferrari. Same for Hamilton with McLaren and Merc.

 

Actually Max was a Red Bull Junior in Formula 3 in 2014 but I take your point he wasn't like Vettel but he also had a very short route to F1 after Karting.

[Jbleroi]

Actually Max was a Red Bull Junior in Formula 3 in 2014 but I take your point he wasn't like Vettel but he also had a very short route to F1 after Karting.

during the first half season in F3 max was “independent” and had his own funding. Max only became a redbull family member somewhere mid season AFTER he landed the F1 seat at toro rosso for the following year (which makes sense to do). So he was never part of the junior program because he got the “senior” drive in F1 immediately.

Edited by Jbleroi, 25 August 2018 - 06:31.

[Lights]

I think the problem is at the top end not bottom.

 

200 GP starts is hardly unusual and impressive anymore.

 

As opposed to 40 years ago when drivers dying or getting seriously injured freed up seats regularly?

 

Now I think about it, you're absolutely right. The increased safety of F1 is stagnating the drivers market.

[P123]

I think the problem is at the top end not bottom.
 
200 GP starts is hardly unusual and impressive anymore.

That's indicative of drivers tending to start their F1 careers at a younger age, and having more races in a season. Not of the driver market being 'stifled' compared to the past.

[sopa]

In a proper open market Ocon would have signed up for a drive for next year somewhere already. A promising fast young driver, who wouldn't want him? Most teams would.

 

But as of now there are massive contractual machinations, who could get him or who could not, and maybe he can't get anywhere. That's tiring.

 

Of course, the upside of these young driver programmes is that we get more proper talents into F1. Considering, how damn expensive feeder categories are these days, we would have less talent and more full-blown crappy paydrivers in F1 without the existence of junior programmes. So I guess we have to deal with some of the negative aspects just to get these talents into F1 at all.

[djparky]

Careers last longer nowadays, that's in part due to increased safety, also they earn a lot more money, and with team domination lasting longer, drivers tend to stay in those cars longer.

[Clatter]

In a proper open market Ocon would have signed up for a drive for next year somewhere already. A promising fast young driver, who wouldn't want him? Most teams would.

 

But as of now there are massive contractual machinations, who could get him or who could not, and maybe he can't get anywhere. That's tiring.

 

Of course, the upside of these young driver programmes is that we get more proper talents into F1. Considering, how damn expensive feeder categories are these days, we would have less talent and more full-blown crappy paydrivers in F1 without the existence of junior programmes. So I guess we have to deal with some of the negative aspects just to get these talents into F1 at all.

 

In years gone by he may not have raced in F1 yet, and instead would be filling the test driver role. I think the lack of testing is a bigger blockage for the young drivers than driver programmes.

Edited by Clatter, 25 August 2018 - 09:52.

[noikeee]

Maybe there needs to be time limited contracts only for any driver under say 24/25. No more than 3 years should suffice, that way teams can't lock in a young driver just to keep him away from another team that can actually put him in a car.

This is a good idea, I don't know how would this be legally enforced, but could solve one of the biggest issues - I still think young driver programmes are an overall net positive for the sport, but teams like Mercedes and Red Bull hogging more good drivers that they can possibly fit on the grid, whilst at the same time holding them to ransom by locking them out of any possible alternative seats once they're already proven in F1, isn't very nice.

It's happened to good drivers like Buemi, Vergne, Wehrlein and now apparently likely Ocon - all very good drivers that would find a seat in the midfield, if they weren't contracted forever to the company they sold their souls to. I get it they wouldn't have had a shot in F1 if RB/Merc hadn't funded their careers in the first place, and that they were all just a little short of showing good enough performance to convince people that they were future world champions, but all of these guys were young, talented, beating their teammates, and more than capable of holding a seat in the top half of the grid.

[PayasYouRace]

That spelling mistake in the title was really annoying me.

[FirstnameLastname]

It seems that this very thing is what will help Kvyat return to F1, as they’re left with nobody of any worth within their own programme, and won’t Home anyone from Mercedes or McLarens own young driver schemes (Norris is now taken by McLaren anyway).

It has highlighted this problem again, there’s a wealth of young promising drivers, but all tied to teams. Keeps the main drivers guessing too I guess, as you can be Raikkonen’d or Vandoorned at a moments notice.

[FirstnameLastname]

https://www.motorspo...ussell/3180710/

Looks like Mercedes might bin off their driver programmes for this very reason. No point in having a driver programme when they reach the time for f1 but there’s no seats.

[Clatter]

https://www.motorspo...ussell/3180710/

Looks like Mercedes might bin off their driver programmes for this very reason. No point in having a driver programme when they reach the time for f1 but there’s no seats.

No point in them having a driver program if they are not willing to put them in their own car.

[Anja]

If Mercedes is trying to save face here, they're not doing a very good job. Did they really expect other teams to just take drivers contracted with someone else without any incentive to compensate for that? I guess the others are just doing this to spite them, no other reason. They should be more kind and useful to the Big Top Team. 

[NotSoSilentBob]

No point in them having a driver program if they are not willing to put them in their own car.

Exactly.

I’m not crying a river for Mercedes, Ocon, or Russell.

Mercedes have been absolute pr**ks to Red Bull and McLaren on the engine front when both teams were in need, so I don’t see any reason those teams should help out Mercedes-contracted drivers. Likewise Ocon and Russell signed their deals freely, I doubt a gun was pointed at their heads when they had the pen in hand.

They all made their bed, so sleep in it.

[FLB]

As I wrote in another thread, people are forgetting that Toto has egg on his face not just because of F1 (that was a known situation) but because ot the DTM. The German series was a gateway for junior Mercedes drivers for whom there wasn't any room in F1, like Bruno Spengler or Robert Wickens.

 

Mercedes getting out of the DTM leaves him with a lot less seats left as the Junior Driver programme was there to feed it as well.

[sopa]

As I wrote in another thread, people are forgetting that Toto has egg on his face not just because of F1 (that was a known situation) but because ot the DTM. The German series was a gateway for junior Mercedes drivers for whom there wasn't any room in F1, like Bruno Spengler or Robert Wickens.

 

Mercedes getting out of the DTM leaves him with a lot less seats left as the Junior Driver programme was there to feed it as well.

 

Well, Mercedes can put Ocon and Russell to drive for their Formula E team. They are still looking for drivers, I guess?