18 replies to this topic

[king_crud]

As someone who was 8 in 1985 can those who know more about these things explain why touring cars in Australia went from Group C to Group A? The grids seemed full enough, with a mix of local manufacturers.

Group A didn't seem too popular with the masses as there were to many Johnny Foreigner cars, and this eventually led to the V8 series of 1993, in which it was Commodore v Falcon only, no others allowed in. As a Nissan fan this put me right off. Yet looking at 1984 we Commodores vs Falcons with the occasional RX7 and Bluebird getting in the mix. Why not go back to Group C regs rather than force out all other non Holden & Ford manufacturers?

So why the demise? And why no revive it after the death of Group A?

[stuartbrs]

Homologation.. It was a nightmare in Group C.

 

Group A was a ready made set of rules and at the time made sense. It had worked well in Europe, and worked well here for the first 3 years.

 

If you watch the ATCC footage from Sandown in 1987 you can see the drivers arguing the case for Group A when Bernie was talking about moving to a silhouette formula for the wtcc with F1 engines.

[Ray Bell]

Your last question first...

Because Mike Raymond had too much input. He wanted to convince everyone that the 'big local manufacturer' support was the best way to get competitive fields and attract bigger crowds, both at the circuit and on TV.

The drive towards Group A was a combination of wanting to fit in with the rest of the world and also to be a part of the International series.

Group C, on the other hand, had become something of a 'bastard' formula. Which, of course, is what we have now.

[Lee Nicolle]

GpC was succesfull but became a rule change debacle. Some makes were encouraged and others discouraged. eg The Camaros. wheras Commodores, Mazdas and Datsuns were given too much freedom to become outright crs instead of what they were which was class winners.

GpA was never succesfull with all the turbo Euro stuff given way too much freedom. And the Europeans that were plain cheats, BMW and Eggenberger at the front though Walkinshaw too was. And Sierras,,,, ugly little pram with huge horsepower possible. But the transmission was fragile,, thats ok lets cheat there as well.

So in Oz we had the home grown fighting an unequal  battle with the turbo things. And then came the Nissan Patrol aka as the Skyline. Probably more kocher as a car than the Euro stuff but never really within the spirit? of the rules.

So we got 5 litre local cars, cars that were sold here though also far from production. Which has evolved into the irrelevant Stupidcar crap we have now with front drive east west engine cars masquerading as something. Choreographed to the hilt.

[stuartbrs]

Group A was also an Australian Orphan in the early 90`s. The rest of the world had pretty much moved on whilst it staggered on here and got ridiculously expensive..

 

The B&H BMW M3`s started their life as DTM cars (unlike the earlier JPS/Mobil cars), and ran a heavier spec (steel bonnet) and without some of the gizmo`s (ABS) they used in DTM. Those cars were built from a floor pan up, essentially built around a roll cage. 

 

The final year of Group A had returned to the bad old days of CAMS fiddling with weight and rules and a campaign against the Nissans.. Apparently 7,Shell, Holden etc were on the verge of pulling out if they didnt change for 93.

 

And as Ray points out, Mike Raymond. 

 

Personally, I think the Bathurst 12 hour most resembles the 70`s/80`s style of Bathurst I fondly remember, but others disagree. I just like it because of the variety of cars and I find them technically interesting.

[king_crud]

The final year of Group A had returned to the bad old days of CAMS fiddling with weight and rules and a campaign against the Nissans.. Apparently 7,Shell, Holden etc were on the verge of pulling out if they didnt change for 93.
 
And as Ray points out, Mike Raymond.

yep, seemed fine when Ford was dominating with the Sierra, but as soon as Nissan do it then kick them out

[Porsche718]

Your last question first...

Because Mike Raymond had too much input. He wanted to convince everyone that the 'big local manufacturer' support was the best way to get competitive fields and attract bigger crowds, both at the circuit and on TV.

The drive towards Group A was a combination of wanting to fit in with the rest of the world and also to be a part of the International series.

Group C, on the other hand, had become something of a 'bastard' formula. Which, of course, is what we have now.

 

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

I think that by the end of the Group C era there was a "perception" that the cars were becoming less recognizable with the massive flares en' all. The Group A rule-set was in place, the cars silhouette was as standard, and adopting Group A meant "we could get included in World Touring Championships" (and look how well that turned out!!!.

 

The demise of Group A was more to do with the Australia's economic situation by '89/90. We had poor fields, teams were folding, even the Larry Perkins and Brock based teams had to merge to continue.

 

I think it was also realised that the average punter on the street (or in front of the telly) loved the good old days of Holden v Ford. Which led to the V8 Supercar era.

 

Which is also why the current "Supercar" racing will become meaningless in only a few more years. They will only ever become mobile advertising hordings, single file racing, with the only passing happening when the cars are stationary in the pits.

 

Just my thoughts

[stuartbrs]

And those Group A days where when Neil Crompton was a good commentator... not the shouter he has now become.

Edited by stuartbrs, 28 August 2018 - 00:45.

[Lee Nicolle]

And those Group A days where when Neil Crompton was a good commentator... not the shouter he has now become.

You must be confusing Crompton with Skaife. Neil is an excellent commentator where Skaife is very poor. He almost makes the choreographed  events seem real!!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 28 August 2018 - 06:58.

[stuartbrs]

You must be confusing Crompton with Skaife. Neil is an excellent commentator where Skaife is very poor. He almost makes the choreographed  events seem real!!

 

Yep, I cant stand listening to Skaife yell at me from my TV. Crompton does it as well now.. although not as often as Skaife does.

[Ray Bell]

Do they also talk about the 'strike' - or is that the 'stripe'?

Raymondisms made a right mess of our tintop telecasts...

[Stinky]

Hullo lee;Yes, I agree.

My dear cynical wife maintains that v8 Supercars is about as fair dinkum as World Championship Wrestlin g !!  

Cheers.

Roger

[king_crud]

Your last question first...

Because Mike Raymond had too much input. He wanted to convince everyone that the 'big local manufacturer' support was the best way to get competitive fields and attract bigger crowds, both at the circuit and on TV.

Why did Mike Raymond have such influence. I know he was lead commentator on C7, did he do a bit more than that?

[Lee Nicolle]

The round bloke had a fair influence as TV organiser. Like him or loathe him he did try.

Though I do not think it was him pushing for outright contendors from class cars with the BMW Mazda and Datsuns. That was more than a few people in the background. And one of the reasons the series imploded as most realised that within the original intention of the rules none of those cars were quick enough. Probably after too many Brock wins!! Who was as good as any but his cars prep was better than the rest. And he too was given some freedoms, this back in the 70s. Let alone the end of GpC  in 84. Though the A9X was the best all round car anything 76 on were using earlier spec engines. As the pollution engines were all dogs, whatever brand of car. The Ford as was proven though was probably the fastest but way too fat and killed mechanicals. Though at Bathurst a blue Chev did feature as quickest.

The example is gearbox. 400hp and 1.3 tonne of Torana, 500Hp and 1.55 tonne of Chev then 500hp and 1.65 tonne of Falcon coupe. All using  what is a 450 ft lb gearbox.

By 80 that had changed to a Falcon that weighed marginally more than the Commondore and a Chev that was anorexic but still heavier than the rest.

Though,,, still to quote Alan Moffat  re about 77,everytime Brocky stood on the gas he has all the oil around the pick up where we had fresh air!

Hence drysumping which allowed higher rpm and corner and braking.

Though I do feel for any motorsport dry sumping is the cheapest hosepower with a 15hp loss! Because you can drive the car without watching the oil guage.

Oh yeah, Brocks reliability and driving ability gave him the multi lap win,,, will never happen again as there will be a safety car for a piece of paper on the track!

 

Off topic but in part that was what happened to Bradley as well at the Thunderdome. He had to slow down!

[DavidI]

The notion that Group A was less popular is a furphy. At its peak it was as popular as the subsequent V8 formula became. Look for images of crowds during the early 90s and you'll see what I mnean.
Group A was still popular with crowds when it ended, the teams hated it because the costs were spiralling. The V8 class model proposed my Mike Raymond promised a more attractive package for sponsors and a better deal for professional team owners.

[king_crud]

Group A was still popular with crowds when it ended, the teams hated it because the costs were spiralling.

yeah from memory there were some 11 or 12 car grids in 1991/92 seasons

[Bob Riebe]

I am in the U.S. of A. but by the grace of God, near twenty years ago was able to purchase a bunch of Aussie road racing annuals that  cover sedan racing there from the days when Studebaker was still there to early Group A days.

I found reading those very, very interesting and now reading this thread see the what happened over there was similar to the mindles cluster-F that ruined SCCA's  pro series, and late the IMSA over here.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Ray Bell]

The Studebaker reign was brief...

1961 to 1966? And only ever a very small number of them. Their biggest moments were the opening laps of the early Bathurst Armstrong 500s. Only until the brakes got too hot, of course.

[Lee Nicolle]

I am in the U.S. of A. but by the grace of God, near twenty years ago was able to purchase a bunch of Aussie road racing annuals that  cover sedan racing there from the days when Studebaker was still there to early Group A days.

I found reading those very, very interesting and now reading this thread see the what happened over there was similar to the mindles cluster-F that ruined SCCA's  pro series, and late the IMSA over here.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Gp A started 85, Studes were about 15 years past tense by then. Even for GpC

The raced as Series Production cars and were quite fast until they ran out of brakes. As Ray said